General / Off-Topic So... Do we have free will? :)

[znôrt]

you know im being silly now right?? lol

it's your free !

 

[ArtiX]

... a handful of atheists ....

Is that your way of saying "i despise people who do not believe in the concept of a godlike entity"?

 

[Stigbob]

So far I haven't really seen a solid rational for the non existence of free will except for the over eager wishful thinking of a handful of atheists on what has become a bit of a cesspool of a thread.

Props to the op for trying to keep it rational. Now I'm going to excercise my own free will to say buh bye to all you self proclaimed npc like programs in the matrix.

o7

If you want people to be more respectful of your beliefs you should be equally as respectful about theirs even if their belief is that your god doesn't exist.

 

[jasonbarron]

Is that your way of saying "i despise people who do not believe in the concept of a godlike entity"?

I'm trying to exit this thread, dammit! Lolol

 

[6xes]

why did the dinosaur cross the Road??
becos the chicken hadnt evolved yet!!

 

[Stigbob]

Just by reading the example i can tell you're referring to the US.
In Germany the maximum Prison sentence is 15 years (for murder) and only in extreme cases they get an additional (mit anschließender Sicherheitsverwahrung)
which basically means they won't have a chance to get out on parole during the 15 years and depending on the verdict for an unspecified time period after that.
But that only applies to the most extreme cases over here.

Just an informative post, not part of the debate.

Same in the UK but there's also a thing called a whole life order which is used very sparingly (serial killers mostly) that means you die in prison no matter how long it takes.

 

[Morbad]

So far I haven't really seen a solid rational for the non existence of free will except for the over eager wishful thinking of a handful of atheists on what has become a bit of a cesspool of a thread.

Wishful thinking? I don't think very many find the idea of not having free will an appealing one.

A broad presumption of atheism is also unfounded.

The point is that when we sentence someone, we assume they are responsible for their crimes.

That is the assumption in most retributive and even rehabilitative systems. Not required where the goal is preventive or deterrent based though.

 

[ArtiX]

why did the dinosaur cross the Road??
becos the chicken hadnt evolved yet!!

You just completely devalidated everything you said with this one sentence.
That's why the egg and not the chicken was first, because the chicken evolved out of another species not defined as chicken per classification.
Again, just referring to evolutionary standpoints, not religious beliefs.

Same in the UK but there's also a thing called a whole life order which is used very sparingly (serial killers mostly) that means you die in prison no matter how long it takes.

Interesting, so actually England and Germany have the same interpretation of it.

 

[Arry]

Wishful thinking? I don't think very many find the idea of not having free will an appealing one.

A broad presumption of atheism is also unfounded.



That is the assumption in most retributive and even rehabilitative systems. Not required where the goal is preventive or deterrent based though.

All four of the above, is meant to be taken into consideration; when sentencing takes place in the U.K.

 

[6xes]

You just completely devalidated everything you said with this one sentence.
That's why the egg and not the chicken was first, because the chicken evolved out of another species not defined as chicken per classification.
Again, just referring to evolutionary standpoints, not religious beliefs.

i was making a joke of both chickens and the theory of evolution...
but take it as you see fit i guess...
it validates your arguement... it seems

 

[6xes]

heres the paradox solved...
which came first the chicken or the egg!!

a Egg requires a constant temperature to be maintained....
If this is therefore true... what maintained the temperature for the chick to hatch from the Egg

If therefore a chicken was created first.. the egg temperature could be maintained for perpetuity to continue!!

which is logical... and which is backed by scientific research

 

[znôrt]

Most laws and penal systems I'm familiar with are based on a sadistic need for vengeance juxtaposed against a phobia of getting one's hands dirty, resulting in faceless institutions that ultimately exist to oppress undesirables and enforce social order through threat of ruin, prison, or death.

besides an excellent cough business model for taxpayer money extraction. yes, afaik the us is a very extreme case in the western 'world' (appaling, actually, albeit being quite advanced in civil rights), but much of this applies to many countries in europe aswell to various degrees. as has been noted some countries are much more serious about reintegration, but that is not a common standard at all. in the south it can be very nasty too and is also a self feeding system abused to perpetuate social injustice or even supress dissidence.

 

[Han_Zen]

I'm trying to exit this thread, dammit! Lolol

That is the assumption in most retributive and even rehabilitative systems. Not required where the goal is preventive or deterrent based though.

If you are a true determinist, you would never bother with preventive measures. What happens, happens. Nothing can be done to change it.
Everything is just free falling into nothing, in a complex pattern that we can observe but nothing more.

 

[znôrt]

If you are a true determinist, you would never bother with preventive measures. What happens, happens. Nothing can be done to change it.

what you get from that reductio ad absurdum is starving to death due to inaction ... which is actually a quite detrministic outcome!

 

[Han_Zen]

heres the paradox solved...
which came first the chicken or the egg!!

a Egg requires a constant temperature to be maintained....
If this is therefore true... what maintained the temperature for the chick to hatch from the Egg

If therefore a chicken was created first.. the egg temperature could be maintained for perpetuity to continue!!

which is logical... and which is backed by scientific research

I suspect that the rooster came first.

 

[ArtiX]

heres the paradox solved...
which came first the chicken or the egg!!

a Egg requires a constant temperature to be maintained....
If this is therefore true... what maintained the temperature for the chick to hatch from the Egg

If therefore a chicken was created first.. the egg temperature could be maintained for perpetuity to continue!!

which is logical... and which is backed by scientific research

So only a chicken can keep an egg warm until it hatches?
Somebody better tell the scientists they are all wrong about Vertebrae and Dinosaurs,
if those didn't have any Chicken to their disposal, then surely they couldn't have hatched by natural means.

 

[Morbad]

Are we talking about the religious conception of having no free will (aka it's all in lord's hand, or just "fate") or some of the neo-atheist ideas that all we are doing is determined by our genes?

Mostly neither.

 

[ArtiX]

Mostly neither.

At least until it got sidetracked ^_^

 

[znôrt]

Are we talking about the religious conception of having no free will (aka it's all in lord's hand, or just "fate")

it started philosophically, see op:

On one hand science and philosophy has shown that the Universe (that includes you) seems to be deterministic, build on a foundation of uncertainty. Once the dices have been thrown, everything follows the laws of nature. This seems to rule out free will as we know it.

On the other hand you make choices every day.

an apparent paradox which to me means: this is all about interpretation. i expect religious minded people will make religious mindend interpretations. which includes me, as i believe (i cannot prove it, it's just my best honest guess as of today) the universe is deterministic at its core, which doesn't preclude near infinite variation perceivable as free will. pure interpretation. note that 'religion' is actually a very loaded term for me the only needed pillar of any religion should be for it not to be imposed on anyone.

as to the multiverse theories, i see them as an amazing and interesting mind experiment but don't really see their necessity, but that's maybe just me needing to dig a bit deeper.

 

[6xes]

I suspect that the rooster came first.

im going to agree,... as funny as it is lol