Hitpoint inflation is insane

[CMDR Cknarf]

No MRP means pretty quick PP kill or popped canopy.

I was gonna comment on this earlier, but forgot.

That eagle build posted earlier might do well against projectile weapons, but anyone running fixed hitscan would totally smoke that thing’s internals in a heartbeat.

I never used to run an MRP on my iEagle til the new slots came out. I can usually toy with plasma builds for a good while, but a fixed beam build smoked me in a couple minutes a long time ago lol.

Thankfully, that sort of thing isn’t very common on Xbox.

 

[Jmanis]

I was hoping you could resist the temptation to lecture when I decided to keep the mrps out just to show how much armor you could cram in a tiny old tech craft

But I am happy to see people agree on hitpoint inflation.

Right... but a useless build doesn't exactly demonstrate the problem very effectively. (Plus that eagle would handle like a brick)

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

You think an Eagle can tank

You should see the hauler

Edit: It’s still easy enough to get 1400+ hull out of an eagle, even with MRPs now. That’s a lot of armor for a tiny target.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

This is roughly what my iEagle looks like these days.

Thing still moves well enough, too.

It’s ridiculous, really.

 

[fus roh potato]

Replacing resis-aug booster mods with recharge booster mods would help a little. The multiplicative power of resistances threw TTK out of orbit. Frontier tried to counter this effect by changing plasma into pure, which kinda helped, but eliminated the advantage of running plasma in PvE (because NPC health isn't based on resistances as much) and strongly confined the PvP meta to its use. The intro of recharge boosters would help reestablish the utility of hull tank hybrids where resistances were lost.

HRP resistance modding also added to this effect. Removing the resistance bonuses and boosting base hulls of ships would help alleviate the massive massive massive disparity between someone who has HRPs and someone who doesn't. A big disparity is good, but one that's more than a magnitude is not. You either don't have enough ammo to kill them with frags, or you kill them with a single volley. Not very smart...

If those two things are done, it would warrant a damage boost for plasma, bringing its viability back up after what would have been lost from removed resistances. This would increase its potential in PvE.

Lastly, tacking on higher power consumption penalties for reinforced boosters would introduce the dynamic of choosing between running safe, and running higher offensive pressure. A good balance offers alternative choices that are not overpowered. Without these penalties, you simply run the highest shields possible, the fastest engines possible, and the highest damage possible. I think this stinks. A power penalty per % boost gained would allow for passives to tank against ganks, and would reduce the hitpoint inflation with offensive builds.

The game needs a lot of balancing but, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that those who decided against it simply don't care. They don't have the slightest clue about what makes for fun PvP and PvE combat. They don't even play the game. This topic of health point inflation has been done several hundred times now, yet they just keep ignoring it because some non-factors (who don't even play anymore because they got bored to death) didn't like the idea of losing their ultimate build.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Once the power creep is out is hard to control. People gorged themselves on the juice and cant let go anymore.
I'd be mighty fine with engineer less galaxy.

 

[zimms]

Do you remember why Engineering is as bad as it is? Because back in the day Frontier decided we have to grind our assets off. Engineering should be fine tuning your ship so you can get maybe 5% better performance out of it. Instead in OP's Eagle example it's 2400%(!!!) - well, that's not completely honest because that's compared to a stock Eagle, but still.

Back in the day it cost you an arm and a leg (better have lots of cargo space in your FDL, lol) and Frontier realized no sane person would bother with that unless the reward was as ridiculously high.

At some point Frontier finally found some sense and improved the awful Engineering experience, but the rewards stayed just as high, heck they even improved them.

As it stands right now, Engineering your ship isn't a reward you get for putting some love into your favorite vessels, it's a necessity. So much so, that it feels like a punishment whenever you want to buy a new ship.

Unfortunately I don't see this mess ever being corrected or changed. We've had quite a few discussions about balance overhauls better never ever did anything come from it. A lot of people are now too invested into their ships and there's a huge outcry whenever possible solutions are being discussed. So instead of improving this fluster duck we keep going down this rabbit hole further and further. Instead of giving the ships dedicated sensor or ship computer slots (hello limpets), we get even more generic module slots which of course end up being min-maxed for combat.

Remember when people had to be smart about their power management to get the full potential out of their ship? When adding another shield booster had serious drawbacks to consider? When ships had a unique "character" to them that you could feel, instead of "I'll just engineer it and it's like any other ship"?

If I had the choice to completely remove any trace of Engineering in this game and go back to how things have been before, I would do so in a heart beat.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Bigmaec]

Do you remember why Engineering is as bad as it is? Because back in the day Frontier decided we have to grind our assets off. Engineering should be fine tuning your ship so you can get maybe 5% better performance out of it. Instead in OP's Eagle example it's 2400%(!!!) - well, that's not completely honest because that's compared to a stock Eagle, but still.

Back in the day it cost you an arm and a leg (better have lots of cargo space in your FDL, lol) and Frontier realized no sane person would bother with that unless the reward was as ridiculously high.

At some point Frontier finally found some sense and improved the awful Engineering experience, but the rewards stayed just as high, heck they even improved them.

As it stands right now, Engineering your ship isn't a reward you get for putting some love into your favorite vessels, it's a necessity. So much so, that it feels like a punishment whenever you want to buy a new ship.

Unfortunately I don't see this mess ever being corrected or changed. We've had quite a few discussions about balance overhauls better never ever did anything come from it. A lot of people are now too invested into their ships and there's a huge outcry whenever possible solutions are being discussed. So instead of improving this fluster duck we keep going down this rabbit whole further and further. Instead of giving the ships dedicated sensor or ship computer slots (hello limpets), we get even more generic module slots which of course end up being min-maxed for combat.

Remember when people had to be smart about their power management to get the full potential out of their ship? When adding another shield booster had serious drawbacks to consider? When ships had a unique "character" to them that you could feel, instead of "I'll just engineer it and it's like any other ship"?

If I had the choice to completely remove any trace of Engineering in this game and go back to how things have been before, I would do so in a heart beat.

Sorry for the rant.

Hopefully we get a complete rebalance in Elite: Deadly.

 

[S0rkvild]

What is the point of such hull tanking if there aren't any MRP's? One per HRP should give you proper survivability otherwise I can take down your thrusters or PP with a laser fire, not to mention anything heavier. This is what hull tanked ships in CZ's are all about. Insane number of HRP with maxed out resistances and almost no MRP. Killing a Master Chieftain in a CZ just by shooting at it without any specific targeting is a tiresome thing, but killing its thrusters or dealing a critical blow to PP resulting in ship destruction at 40% hull points is a quickie.

 

[Morbad]

Back in the day it cost you an arm and a leg (better have lots of cargo space in your FDL, lol) and Frontier realized no sane person would bother with that unless the reward was as ridiculously high.

Yes, they would have. The upper bounds for a G5 god roll could have been ~10% and people would still have spent three times as many materials and some cargo per roll with a 10% chance of getting a random secondary for it...because they would have had to in order to remain on roughly even footing with the rest of those who had.

What is the point of such hull tanking if there aren't any MRP's? One per HRP should give you proper survivability otherwise I can take down your thrusters or PP with a laser fire, not to mention anything heavier.

One or two MRPs are sufficient. Any more than that on a small ship and even facing a crack rail shot the ship will fall apart before the critical modules are really at risk.

ship destruction at 40% hull points is a quickie.

If you're destroying ships at 40% hull, that usually means it's taking just as long as it would have if you deliberately avoided hitting modules and attacked only the hull. Non-splash/AoE damage done to modules doesn't damage the hull and middling penetration chances or breach damage of most weapons means that your just splitting the damage you are doing...an armored module and/or one with MRPs will often last longer than the hull on all but the most imbalanced setups. Module targeting doesn't bypass hull damage resistances either.

 

[Sylow]

Yes, they would have. The upper bounds for a G5 god roll could have been ~10% and people would still have spent three times as many materials and some cargo per roll with a 10% chance of getting a random secondary for it...because they would have had to in order to remain on roughly even footing with the rest of those who had.

Absolutely! Even 10% would've been plenty.

@Those who doubt this: Do you play any other online game? Any gear based MMO? Many people spend days and weeks there, chasing some elusive item to get just a 5% improvement on the stats of that one item. Which is one of like 10 they are using. So effectively it's a 0.5% improvement per piece, which after many weeks adds up to +5%.

Yet people do it all the time. As even a 5% advantage can be the difference between victory and death. We really didn't need +800% and more...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Problem with engineers is there upsides massively outweight the downsides. If grade 5 DD make it so that even looking at them caused them to spontaneously explode then there would be a lot more hard decisions required. But everyone slaps DD5s on without even thinking once. Same goes with all the other modules. Its mainly just upsides and any downsides can usually be offset by other engineering.

 

[Elfias]

Im not PvP player (maybe yet?) but I noticed this too when I came back. Back in days of god rolls it was harder (well unless you visited Marco and got some nice G5 for G1 mats). Then they changed it to nowdays model which I welcome.
Sadly with that they made everything even more powerful (engineering upgrades) so ppl wouldnt complaing that they grinded for nothing. I was shocked when I saw that my G5 modules are converted from legacy to nowdays and Im becoming a monster.

I think they should start to slowly decreasse this difference and if there are some legacy modules around which would be too op simply convert them too and nerf all. Yeah I know its not popular word but...

In my experiences whenever I met someone who flew combat ship and I was still barely engineered even when I tried to run imediatly and maybe wasnt so fast in doing so I either died or got away with 20% of hull (even when I had slight engineering and some HRP here and there).

And thats also answer to why ppl dont wont to go to Open, I dont mind dying in PvP game much but you also dont have much of chance. I decided to learn and see how much of this is not being gut on my side, but its quite clear that if Im flying not fully combat ship and wing jump on me with this insane burst dmg Im kinda rip.

Engineering should be fine tunning not completly going to different league. My insight of filthy amateur.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Do you remember why Engineering is as bad as it is? Because back in the day Frontier decided we have to grind our assets off. Engineering should be fine tuning your ship so you can get maybe 5% better performance out of it. Instead in OP's Eagle example it's 2400%(!!!) - well, that's not completely honest because that's compared to a stock Eagle, but still.

Back in the day it cost you an arm and a leg (better have lots of cargo space in your FDL, lol) and Frontier realized no sane person would bother with that unless the reward was as ridiculously high.

At some point Frontier finally found some sense and improved the awful Engineering experience, but the rewards stayed just as high, heck they even improved them.

As it stands right now, Engineering your ship isn't a reward you get for putting some love into your favorite vessels, it's a necessity. So much so, that it feels like a punishment whenever you want to buy a new ship.

Unfortunately I don't see this mess ever being corrected or changed. We've had quite a few discussions about balance overhauls better never ever did anything come from it. A lot of people are now too invested into their ships and there's a huge outcry whenever possible solutions are being discussed. So instead of improving this fluster duck we keep going down this rabbit hole further and further. Instead of giving the ships dedicated sensor or ship computer slots (hello limpets), we get even more generic module slots which of course end up being min-maxed for combat.

Remember when people had to be smart about their power management to get the full potential out of their ship? When adding another shield booster had serious drawbacks to consider? When ships had a unique "character" to them that you could feel, instead of "I'll just engineer it and it's like any other ship"?

If I had the choice to completely remove any trace of Engineering in this game and go back to how things have been before, I would do so in a heart beat.

Sorry for the rant.

That's what was sold. Mild upgrades they promised. I foolishly expected cosmetic laser colours. Decals to pimp your ship. Not this overpowered crap. The 1st thing that went outa window was any sensible balance for PvP MP. The next was PvE when AI became too easy with the metacannons and HP. What's left is the idiots who refuse to grind and have to put up with the bulletsponged and otherwise pimped AI.
"Respect your time" my rear - 500 hours wasted only to get nerfed like this - that's what makes me really salty. 500 hours just to see gameplay bit by bit reduced to unplayable and turning unfun.

 

[zimms]

Insult to injury: Every time they made a change to Engineers, they didn't turn it down, but turn it up a notch. Which made you jump through the loops again, updating your entire fleet, if you wanted to keep up.

 

[Screemonster]

I think the solution is to impose a limit to equippable hrp different for every ship, with a message popping up much like when you try to equip multiple shield generators.

You keep slot flexibility and cure hp inflation to some extent

Diminishing returns on HRPs outside of the military slots after the first, so fitting more military modules than the ship is designed to handle is less effective.
Shields - diminishing returns on shield boosters. Same deal. Someone fitting a couple of boosters won't be penalised by this change, someone loading 8 boosters onto one of the big four will see a big drop in health pool.
Shield Cell Banks - gut the existing system entirely, replace it with a health pool that charges off the sys capacitor and has the same charge rate and roughly the same MJ that a standard shield of the same class and rating would have. (ie. much smaller, slowly-rechargable health pool than existing SCBs, stacking a lot of them not recommended unless you're running a sys-focused distro)
And finally - bring shieldtanks back into line with hulltanks with limited module damage through shields (even if only to the shield generator) and more weapons/effects that work specifically as a counter to shields. (FTL-style pulse weapons would be amazing)

 

[dm06]

just to show how much armor you could cram in a tiny old tech craft

You can do the same with big ships and get even more HP.

My point is, such a tiny old craft shouldn't even be allowed to reach such durability. Not just a gameplay issue but also makes an eagle feel like a tank which is weird.

This is not a tank. There's no durability. After a single pew and couple of missiles it will be a brick. I am quite OK with that.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

You can do the same with big ships and get even more HP.


This is not a tank. There's no durability. After a single pew and couple of missiles it will be a brick. I am quite OK with that.

It's a tank for everthing I could field against it.

 

[Duc_Mallard]

I only ever hear people talk about nerfing boosters and hit point inflation. Which I agree with. So who are the people that went mad went fdev had a beta with shield booster nerfs? Can they pipe up and explain why it's a good idea to make the game boring? Is it just so they can afk at a cz

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Is not just HP inflation. The other side of the medal, fancy damage buffs are just as bad. Tone down the HP inflation and ppl start whining about being one-shotted.