General / Off-Topic Let's Have A Debate: To Be, Or Not To Be Vegan? That Is The Question ...

[ArtiX]

Hence the 'sentient' stipulation. While true that plants are life forms it is missing the main points of the argument:

1) Plants cannot feel pain or be mistreated like an animal can, especially a close relative of humans like any other mammal.
2) Raising animals for food rather than using a pure plant based source of calories is ecologically damaging and inefficient when taking a global perspective.

I let your arguments stand as is, however, i will ask you something. How do you know? Can you be certain?
I remember when the vegetarian movement started in the 90s. There was an ad saying "just because this piglet can't tell you its suffering, it doesn't mean it's happy"
(something along these lines.)
Imagine, and don't take it literal, but figuratively, plants live in a different dimension, a lifeform we cannot fathom on how it lives or feels.
Take the Anemony, a seemingly simple lifeform, not a plant though. The anemony is capable of making decisions to aid its survival, to defend itself and feed off prey.
It can change its appearance and move places, even though it's "rootbound" for the majority of its lifetime.
If you look at the plant as if it was a giant Ant collaborative, also similar to the way corals function
(symbiosis of millions of tiny lifeforms who collectively form a bigger structure, with all sides aiding from it)
It just might make a lot more sense to see more in a plant than just a green leafy beauty.

I've just recently seen an example in my own garden, i have a small Musa (banana plant) that i took in for the winter, over the course of a few weeks it completely changed it's leaf size AND surface structure (not the usual Lotus-like features, but sticky and delicate) to be able to catch the filtered light. In my opinion, this is a decision that is deliberately taken somewhere in this lifeform.

And to clear things up, i'm not a tree hugger, i eat meat, i eat salad, i go the usual ways any human being goes within this civilizatioin.
But i still hope you can follow my "weird" argumentation for the sake of philosophizing on the topic.


Edit: @Morbad I'm not gonna go into this further, i've said my points, the rest is up to what you make of it.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I let your arguments stand as is, however, i will ask you something. How do you know? Can you be certain?
I remember when the vegetarian movement started in the 90s. There was an ad saying "just because this piglet can't tell you its suffering, it doesn't mean it's happy"
(something along these lines.)
Imagine, and don't take it literal, but figuratively, plants live in a different dimension, a lifeform we cannot fathom on how it lives or feels.
Take the Anemony, a seemingly simple lifeform, not a plant though. The anemony is capable of making decisions to aid its survival, to defend itself and feed off prey.
It can change its appearance and move places, even though it's "rootbound" for the majority of its lifetime.
If you look at the plant as if it was a giant Ant collaborative, also similar to the way corals function
(symbiosis of millions of tiny lifeforms who collectively form a bigger structure, with all sides aiding from it)
It just might make a lot more sense to see more in a plant than just a green leafy beauty.

I've just recently seen an example in my own garden, i have a small Musa (banana plant) that i took in for the winter, over the course of a few weeks it completely changed it's leaf size AND surface structure (not the usual Lotus-like features, but sticky and delicate) to be able to catch the filtered light. In my opinion, this is a decision that is deliberately taken somewhere in this lifeform.

And to clear things up, i'm not a tree hugger, i eat meat, i eat salad, i go the usual ways any human being goes within this civilizatioin.
But i still hope you can follow my "weird" argumentation for the sake of philosophizing on the topic.

But then again, eating meat won't exclude you from indirectly killing quite a fair bit of plants, as a matter of fact, you are very likely killing more plants by eating meat than otherwise because of the thermodinamic losses implicated in leveling up the trophic levels (and this is the reason why eating humans and any other carnivores is crazy inefficient), IOW, if plants do indeed feel pain, eating them instead of meat remains a better choice (if that's your concern).

 

[Jenner]

@Alien @ArtiX This is an interesting philosophical debate about whether plants feel pain and are subject to the same moral considerations as animals. My response is that we don't know for certain if what plants feel (if anything) is even analogous to pain as we would describe it. In my opinion plants are so far removed from the mamallian shared experience that it makes any moral judgement based on notions of pain, abuse, fulfilment, freedom, etc. to be almost meaningless. Yes, plants are living beings and when I consume them I am by definition killing a life in order to sustain my own. That said the life I'm snuffing out is so different from my own that I personally feel no qualms about doing so. I would even say I would not feel reservations about obtaining protein from insect sources and the like, as again these organisms are sufficiently different from me that I don't feel the same revulsion about consuming them.

Call me a vertebrate or mammalian elitist I suppose.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

@Alien @ArtiX This is an interesting philosophical debate about whether plants feel pain and are subject to the same moral considerations as animals. My response is that A) We don't know for certain if what plants feel (if anything) is even analogous to pain as we would describe it. In my opinion plants are so far removed from the mamallian shared experience that it makes any moral judgement based on notions of pain, abuse, fulfilment, freedom, etc. to be almost meaningless. Yes, plants are living beings and when I consume them I am by definition killing a life in order to sustain my own. That said the life I'm snuffing out is so different from my own that I personally feel no qualms about doing so. I would even say I would not feel reservations about obtaining protein from insect sources and the like, as again these organisms are sufficiently different from me that I don't feel the same revulsion about consuming them.

Call me a vertebrate or mammalian elitist I suppose.

You can eat many kinds of fruits and vegetables without killing the plant, in many cases I very much doubt the plant would feel anything because the fruit is meant to be consumed to spread the seeds.

 

[TruthSeeker]

 

[Jenner]

Killing life in order to sustain life - that sucks. But i guess i never really thought about it. This is what we do, isn't it?
Is all life based on this? Taking one life to sustain another?
Is that a fundamental principle of life?

As Gregg points out, you don't have to consume the entire plant if you only consume pieces of it, therefore you do not have to completely kill an organism if you're a vegetarian. I eat eggs and cheese, and those items are also just pieces of/derivatives of organisms. You cannot do the same if you eat meat, though. (Until we get lab grown meat cheap & tasty at least).

 

[Chaparral]

Plenty of recently extinct or endangered wild and domesticated pig and cattle species and breeds.

Also, ones bred for hundreds or thousands of years to be food for us no longer fill the ecological niches their ancestors did. Domesticating and farming something can destroy it just as thoroughly as hunting it to extinction or annihilating it's natural habitat.

Breeds for farming purposes aren't necessarily species on their own right, and (unfortunately) cloning and monoculture breeds are becoming the preferred stock for farms. I personally think this is a terrible mistake (potato famine levels of bad), so I agree farming is not a holy endeavor in its current expression. However, given that habitat loss and poaching are the greatest threat to our endangered species, farming what we have in controlled spaces seems to be a good option to preserving what is left. Since this farming would have as a goal species preservation, maintining a diverse population would be an incentive to not developing monocultures (for example breeds of rhino with 6 foot long horns).

 

[Morbad]

Since this farming would have as a goal species preservation, maintining a diverse population would be an incentive to not developing monocultures (for example breeds of rhino with 6 foot long horns).

The problem with this goal is that it's not likely to be competitively profitable at least not in the short-term, which is what most short sighted businesses, politicians, and investors are most concerned with. They care about how much profit they can extract in the immediately foreseeable future, not about later implications.

 

[Chaparral]

Even in places where society has virtually broke down, people still don't behave and do what we did in the stone age because technology is so embedded in us nowadays (cough cough, weapons), leveling a whole medium city is no joke, do you seriously think that you can mess around like Tarzan in a place where society has broken down?. BTW, those "many places" are the exception, not the rule.

I might as well buy a bunker and a good amount of food supplies to prepared for the ever coming end of the world.

I live in a major US border city. Across the border, the nearest city was reported to have 3700 bodies in the morgue after a single year, and approximately 1800 were reported to have died from homicide. This border city is not in an African failed state. My city as many of the cities in my state are being choked with more and more homeless. Tens of thousands. Typhus, hepatitis, tuberculosis now present authentic threats to our local populations. Local officials are declining to enforce laws concerning simple battery, theft and assault (especially in Seattle). The societal veil is thinning. We won't be stone age Tarzan's as you put it. We will be something worse.

Limiting what is acceptable to eat is not a good idea.

What we really need, however unpleasant it sounds , is a worldwide commitment to birth control. This is more urgent than any other problem we face. Ending the suffering of cows seems like an urgent moral challenge, but it isn't even close to what matters to our survival.

 

[Chaparral]

The problem with this goal is that it's not likely to be competitively profitable at least not in the short-term, which is what most short sighted businesses, politicians, and investors are most concerned with. They care about how much profit they can extract in the immediately foreseeable future, not about later implications.

Tough to argue with that very resonable position. Possibly the chinese will set up the farms since they represent the primary market for the endangered species body parts.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I live in a major US border city. Across the border, the nearest city was reported to have 3700 bodies in the morgue after a single year, and approximately 1800 were reported to have died from homicide. This border city is not in an African failed state. My city as many of the cities in my state are being choked with more and more homeless. Tens of thousands. Typhus, hepatitis, tuberculosis now present authentic threats to our local populations. Local officials are declining to enforce laws concerning simple battery, theft and assault (especially in Seattle). The societal veil is thinning. We won't be stone age Tarzan's as you put it. We will be something worse.

Limiting what is acceptable to eat is not a good idea.

What we really need, however unpleasant it sounds , is a worldwide commitment to birth control. This is more urgent than any other problem we face. Ending the suffering of cows seems like an urgent moral challenge, but it isn't even close to what matters to our survival.

If meat is indeed the only remedy then go for it, but I'm pretty pretty sure you aren't in that situation right now. I also don't live in the most stable of places but not eating meat definetly does not make my life harder

 

[jasonbarron]

I live in a major US border city. Across the border, the nearest city was reported to have 3700 bodies in the morgue after a single year, and approximately 1800 were reported to have died from homicide. This border city is not in an African failed state. My city as many of the cities in my state are being choked with more and more homeless. Tens of thousands. Typhus, hepatitis, tuberculosis now present authentic threats to our local populations. Local officials are declining to enforce laws concerning simple battery, theft and assault (especially in Seattle). The societal veil is thinning. We won't be stone age Tarzan's as you put it. We will be something worse.

Limiting what is acceptable to eat is not a good idea.

What we really need, however unpleasant it sounds , is a worldwide commitment to birth control. This is more urgent than any other problem we face. Ending the suffering of cows seems like an urgent moral challenge, but it isn't even close to what matters to our survival.

Thank a liberal for that, because what you describe is their endgame.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

As Gregg points out, you don't have to consume the entire plant if you only consume pieces of it, therefore you do not have to completely kill an organism if you're a vegetarian. I eat eggs and cheese, and those items are also just pieces of/derivatives of organisms. You cannot do the same if you eat meat, though. (Until we get lab grown meat cheap & tasty at least).

Incorrect.
Crab legs and octopus tentacles are delicious, and they will regrow.
I'd say 20-30% of the ones I've caught had a chunk missing.
Growing surrogate parts is another option.

Are you suggesting that would be better than killing the animals outright?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

The problem with this goal is that it's not likely to be competitively profitable at least not in the short-term, which is what most short sighted businesses, politicians, and investors are most concerned with. They care about how much profit they can extract in the immediately foreseeable future, not about later implications.

I'd say they're "constrained" and "beholden" etc.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I find this thread ironic as I am a cannibal pirate slaver in game. The Kumo Crew think that cannibalism is the answer in that it recycles excess useless humans into nutritious protein to nourish the able part of society. If you don't want to be considered a burger in waiting you push yourself to excel. Its frankly win win- less humans means less impact on the galaxy, society has a drive to improve and its always BBQ time.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I find this thread ironic as I am a cannibal pirate slaver in game. The Kumo Crew think that cannibalism is the answer in that it recycles excess useless humans into nutritious protein to nourish the able part of society. If you don't want to be considered a burger in waiting you push yourself to excel. Its frankly win win- less humans means less impact on the galaxy, society has a drive to improve and its always BBQ time.

I find that ironic, as I am Hawai'ian and there are ostensibly a bunch of Brits present.

Care for some soup?

 

[Rubbernuke]

I find that ironic, as I am Hawai'ian and there are ostensibly a bunch of Brits present.

Care for some soup?

If they are useless then eat them.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Eventually only the worthy remain uneaten- then everyone can be vegan until someone makes an error and then its Sunday lunch.

Saying that, I do enjoy vegan and vegetarian cooking coming from a meat eating background.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Synthetic foods won't stop you from killing things, the cells that the meat is grown from are living organisms in their own right.

If required Europe could (literally) draw a line in the sand and defend itself against migrants. Though thankfully at present there isn't the political will. Coming from sub-Saharan Africa migrants have to cross the Sahara on their way north (very few travel along the Nile or via Mauritania even when originating from the coasts) They primarily use 3 routes across the centre of the desert.Those could be patrolled as could the Med.

 

[Morbad]

I'd say they're "constrained" and "beholden" etc.

It's certainly true that if they didn't play the game they wouldn't be invited back to the table.

I personally don't see this as much of an excuse and find participation in such dysfunctional systems to be decidedly unappealing, even if it's unavoidable in practice.

Synthetic foods won't stop you from killing things, the cells that the meat is grown from are living organisms in their own right.

If food tissues could be mass produced, it would solve a lot of problems, including most cruelty issues...there wouldn't be much reason to grow brains or nerve tissue.

If required Europe could (literally) draw a line in the sand and defend itself against migrants. Though thankfully at present there isn't the political will. Coming from sub-Saharan Africa migrants have to cross the Sahara on their way north (very few travel along the Nile or via Mauritania even when originating from the coasts) They primarily use 3 routes across the centre of the desert.Those could be patrolled as could the Med.

Sounds like it would be drastically more difficult and more expensive to actualize than whatever measures would be required to reduce the number of refugees and migrants at the source, by not ignoring problems that occur there until they turn into disasters.