General / Off-Topic Let's Have A Debate: To Be, Or Not To Be Vegan? That Is The Question ...

Leper Messiah

Leper Messiah
I eat less meat now than I did in the past mainly for dietting/health reasons (not because of meat per se, just that most of my meat intake was fast food!). Eating veggie burgers and Snags (sausages).....Morrisons do a tasty range, would never know it's veggie! But I'm defo an omnivore. I visit my parents once a month and tend to pig out (pun intended) on bacon, pork pies etc.

The main thing for me is that the animals are well looked after and stunned before the nasty is done, which is why I'm against a certain religious method that cannot be discussed sanely.

Basically I'm against the industialisation of meat production that treats the animals like crap, and unless people start talking about ways to reduce the human population that doesn't hurt anyone (contraception etc) I fear animals will be treated ever more crappily. Until the land can no longer sustain us and it all goes to poop.

Oh and the animals should be allowed to live a decent enough lifespan, so no lamb/veal.....it's just cruel.
 

znôrt

znôrt
Iskariot said:
I do admire principled people who stand by their decision to only eat vegan.
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principles ...

i'm not a full vegan myself, althought i started with it about 5 years ago. i still eat a couple of eggs (from free roaming chicken) every odd week, selected cheese, some shrimp now and then and i can be made happy with a bit of sushi on a restaurant if i'm out with friends and there's nothing else. i even enjoy sharing a sukiyaki (which is basically about playing around with raw red meat in a bowl) once a year with a close friend, it's a tradition.

20171023-17-02-sukiyaki-1.jpg

i don't even miss meat at all and i had loved it for years. however, it is an acquired taste and the same way you acquire it, it goes away, after 5 years i even might feel repulsion to it.

now you might say i have no principles, and i (wholeheartedly) get my good share of mocking and jokes for this. i really couldn't care less and i don't regret my decision a bit. for me this is not about principles, but hard reality. you can be a principled meat eater too. there is just no doubt about the health concerns of excessive meat consumption and the environmental effect, nor about the astonishing scale of suffering of creatures, nor about the trend being unsustainable without change. denying that is just bollox. i'm no vegan knight, i just don't want this in my body, i do not want to contribute to it and i act accordingly albeit still sharing a world wich has just gone full psychopath in the last few decades regarding this issue.

having reduced my impact on the environment and suffering around a 95%, and still being perfectly happy and healthy, is a win in my book. call me a pragmatic idealist! :D
 
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Manticore

Manticore
Balanced diet; meat, fruit, vegetables, grains...... I don't see the problem.

Ethical killing of animals and free range etc.

If you want to be vegan for ethical reasons I commend you.
 

Ian Skippy

Ian Skippy
For what it is worth, a Belgian association of physicians/doctors released a report last week in which they concluded that a strictly vegan diet for young infants is tantamount to child abuse from a medical (so not legal) point of view. So in the context of this discussion I would argue it matters who we are talking about. IMHO there is a very strong argument to be made in favor of vegetarianism (although I am personally not). Veganism is flawed in some aspects, but when we're talking about well-informed adults who monitor their health and take proper supplements it can work and I respect the moral intentions. When it comes to young infants veganism is a big no-no and should not be forced upon minors, even when parents do so with the best intentions.
 

znôrt

znôrt
Ian Skippy said:
Veganism is flawed in some aspects, but when we're talking about well-informed adults who monitor their health and take proper supplements it can work and I respect the moral intentions. When it comes to young infants veganism is a big no-no and should not be forced upon minors, even when parents do so with the best intentions.
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well spotted, but let's put that in context: i guess many more development problems and even premature deaths could be traced back to raising children in, say, air poluted areas than to parents imposing veganism on their offspring. and what do they say about parents being poor and stuffing their kids with frozen pizza, sugared milk shake and crapburgers because there's nothing else (so cheap) in the suburb and it's even promoted by the schooling system?

extremes are extreme. we have parents indocrinating children in racial or gender hate too. i guess that touches on a far more deeper and delicate aspect of our society. dunno about those belgian experts but my understanding is that raising a child on vegan diet should be no problem if you watch closely and are ready to supplement what's needed and take action when it's needed ... which a parent is expected to do anyway.
 

Ian Skippy

Ian Skippy
znôrt said:
well spotted, but let's put that in context: i guess many more development problems and even premature deaths could be traced back to raising children in, say, air poluted areas than to parents imposing veganism on their offspring. and what do they say about parents being poor and stuffing their kids with frozen pizza, sugared milk shake and crapburgers because there's nothing else (so cheap) in the suburb and it's even promoted by the schooling system?

extremes are extreme. we have parents indocrinating children in racial or gender hate too. i guess that touches on a far more deeper and delicate aspect of our society. dunno about those belgian experts but my understanding is that raising a child on vegan diet should be no problem if you watch closely and are ready to supplement what's needed and take action when it's needed ... which a parent is expected to do anyway.
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The report followed after an increase in children being hospitalized following such diets, occasionally with irreversible medical issues and a few life threatening situations. A few days ago a Swedish couple was sentenced to jail after their child barely survived in ICU. Sure, there are other, larger issues. But this is an issue that was until recently relatively unheard off and has become increasingly prevalent in medical centers.
 

Shinji Ikari

Shinji Ikari
Ian Skippy said:
The report followed after an increase in children being hospitalized following such diets, occasionally with irreversible medical issues and a few life threatening situations. A few days ago a Swedish couple was sentenced to jail after their child barely survived in ICU. Sure, there are other, larger issues. But this is an issue that was until recently relatively unheard off and has become increasingly prevalent in medical centers.
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Could you post the report?
 

znôrt

znôrt
Ian Skippy said:
There is no English (or Dutch) version. Welcome to Belgium. :p
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now, this is indeed important. i just read the brief version but there their point seems to confirm that a strict vegan diet is possible with supplements and supervision, but they consider precisely that such 'systematic supplement and supervision' is a medical treatment somehow incompatible with 'normal nutrition'. that's pretty broad. we used to eat stuff raw just after killing it. we don't do that anymore because a lot of tech allows us more convenient ways of intake, anybody can place the bar at any arbitrary spot and claim that's the limit.

of course if parents neglect, by act or omission, knwoingly or ignorant, the safety of their kids that's again a very different thing. i'd say in our society, 'going vegan' is not something you do by inertia, just following the herd. by definition it's a proactive path to nutrition, so some common sense is expected. for anything else, natural selection is just brutal :D
 

Ian Skippy

Ian Skippy
znôrt said:
of course if parents neglect, by act or omission, knwoingly or ignorant, the safety of their kids that's again a very different thing. i'd say in our society, 'going vegan' is not something you do by inertia, just following the herd. by definition it's a proactive path to nutrition, so some common sense is expected. for anything else, natural selection is just brutal :D
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That is the issue, in practice. Traditionally vegan diets were the result of conscious choices made by people who generally did some reading to make sure they had a viable diet. In recent years there has, unfortunately, been an increase in 'anti-vax vegans': diets not bases on well-researched knowledge but on feelings, healing crystals, essential oils, conspiracy theories and a profound mistrust of 'experts'. The Swedish parents for example stated in court they were convinced they could supplement anything missing from the diet of their toddler with 'hugs, smiles and happiness' while refusing any medical assistance from professionals. The issue is not that vegan diets aren't possible but that we have a new wave of idiots, and vegan diets are just one tool in their belt to mess things up for people under their care. We need some level of control to guarantee that kids dont drop dead because of malnutrition in western Europe in 2019, as stupid as it is that we even need to discuss this.

Beyond that, there is the issue of who gets to pay for what medical assistance. Belgium has a very 'socialized' medical system. Because I have an income above a certain level I pay the maximum amount for my medical insurance, which is approximate $80 per year. People with a lower income pay half. While that is great, such a system obviously only works if people take some amount of responsibility to make sure they don't needlessly overburden the system. We have approximately 300,000 vegans in Belgium. Is it reasonable to have them all be placed under tax-paid professional medical supervision just because they are willing to risk the lives of their kids through their ignorance and stupidity?

I am not claiming to know the answers, as this is a very complex topic. Where do you draw the line? If you play sports you are taking a risk of getting an injury. Is that unreasonable? Does it depends on the sports? Should their be a premium for people who undertake certain activities, and if so which activities and how much? We try to simply not ask these questions and simply let people live their lives. But now we are faced with, essentially, starving kids and we have to take a position.
 

znôrt

znôrt
Ian Skippy said:
In recent years there has, unfortunately, been an increase in 'anti-vax vegans'
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i can believe that, veganism is now trending, trends will always pull dumb nuts. i see that however as circumstantial, same as 'alternative medicines' et al. should it be addressed? sure. what's the point of having sanitary authorities if not providing health guidance? however the 'default' is still worse on the bigger part of the world, and i'm not even talking about developing countries: the us are a very good paradigm of trash food going massive and wreaking havoc to public health, specially in low income segments. so this ...

Ian Skippy said:
We need some level of control to guarantee that kids dont drop dead because of malnutrition in western Europe in 2019, as stupid as it is that we even need to discuss this.
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really sounds a bit exaggerated. ;)

Ian Skippy said:
Beyond that, there is the issue of who gets to pay for what medical assistance. Belgium has a very 'socialized' medical system. Because I have an income above a certain level I pay the maximum amount for my medical insurance, which is approximate $80 per year. People with a lower income pay half.
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80 bucks?? here's some insta-happiness: about 30% of each salary in my country goes specifically to public healthcare and social safety net.

the good part is that it provides universal healthcare to every citicizen (with some slowly growing caveats, but still). this includes any medical intervention needed for health reasons and almost the full expense on drugs necessary. this not only provides essential care to everyone, but is an additional protection against population being exploited by pharma corporations.

that's a ton of money but possibly the tax i most gladly pay. may it stay so for years to come. at the end of the day why to we live in tribes? to be stronger. what's the point of being in a tribe and complying, if it won't lift you up when you're down?

and, erm, sorry for the digression ...
 

Bob Lighthouse

Banned
Bob Lighthouse
Ian Skippy said:
That is the issue, in practice. Traditionally vegan diets were the result of conscious choices made by people who generally did some reading to make sure they had a viable diet. In recent years there has, unfortunately, been an increase in 'anti-vax vegans': diets not bases on well-researched knowledge but on feelings, healing crystals, essential oils, conspiracy theories and a profound mistrust of 'experts'. The Swedish parents for example stated in court they were convinced they could supplement anything missing from the diet of their toddler with 'hugs, smiles and happiness' while refusing any medical assistance from professionals. The issue is not that vegan diets aren't possible but that we have a new wave of idiots, and vegan diets are just one tool in their belt to mess things up for people under their care. We need some level of control to guarantee that kids dont drop dead because of malnutrition in western Europe in 2019, as stupid as it is that we even need to discuss this.

Beyond that, there is the issue of who gets to pay for what medical assistance. Belgium has a very 'socialized' medical system. Because I have an income above a certain level I pay the maximum amount for my medical insurance, which is approximate $80 per year. People with a lower income pay half. While that is great, such a system obviously only works if people take some amount of responsibility to make sure they don't needlessly overburden the system. We have approximately 300,000 vegans in Belgium. Is it reasonable to have them all be placed under tax-paid professional medical supervision just because they are willing to risk the lives of their kids through their ignorance and stupidity?

I am not claiming to know the answers, as this is a very complex topic. Where do you draw the line? If you play sports you are taking a risk of getting an injury. Is that unreasonable? Does it depends on the sports? Should their be a premium for people who undertake certain activities, and if so which activities and how much? We try to simply not ask these questions and simply let people live their lives. But now we are faced with, essentially, starving kids and we have to take a position.
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You pretty much nailed it.
One minor point of contention, I suggest this is how it's always been with veganism.
We just didn't have the internet to hear about/discuss it on a wide scale.
People have always been idiots.
 

znôrt

znôrt
Bob Lighthouse said:
You pretty much nailed it.
One minor point of contention, I suggest this is how it's always been with veganism.
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how exactly?

Bob Lighthouse said:
We just didn't have the internet to hear about/discuss it on a wide scale.
People have always been idiots.
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you might have a look at this, bob: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism, just as a quick way to situate the topic in debate and what we're talking about. hint: it is not about your personal phobias or scapegoats of choice, as interesting as they might be :)
 

Bob Lighthouse

Banned
Bob Lighthouse
znôrt said:
how exactly?
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He's factually correct.



you might have a look at this, bob: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism, just as a quick way to situate the topic in debate and what we're talking about. hint: it is not about your personal phobias or scapegoats of choice, as interesting as they might be :)
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I am quite well versed on the topic thanks.
I am not phobic or any other of that nonsense.

I spent nearly a decade as a vegetarian, ftr.

Veganism is a philosophical choice.
It's as un-natural of a choice as they come, if you accept such a thing exists.
It's artifice.
 

Ripskar

Ripskar
znôrt said:
how exactly?
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It's always been part of the counter-culture (outside India) and as such is primarily composed of those who reject societal norms.
Persuading those who reject the establishment to follow their advice rather than 'alternatives' requires the establishment to adopt a... less overt position.
 

znôrt

znôrt
Bob Lighthouse said:
It's as un-natural of a choice as they come, if you accept such a thing exists.
It's artifice.
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so a high throughput bovine processing installation is natural?

Ripskar said:
It's always been part of the counter-culture (outside India) and as such is primarily composed of those who reject societal norms.
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no, it is not. that's your bias. questioning the status quo or general practice is not 'counter-culture', it's just questioning. some would argue it's actually progress. of course that depends on your goals and values.

can it be used for political or economical agendas? indeed. like everything.

besides ... your societal norms (i'm not really against nor in favor for), while very respectable, still don't explain how we're going do sustain this rate of meat consumption in light of the obvious limitations. just ignoring the problem isn't going to cut it.
 

Ripskar

Ripskar
znôrt said:
no, it is not. that's your bias. questioning the status quo or general practice is not 'counter-culture', it's just questioning. some would argue it's actually progress. of course that depends on your goals and values.

can it be used for political or economical agendas? indeed. like everything.

besides ... your societal norms (i'm not really against nor in favor for), while very respectable, still don't explain how we're going do sustain this rate of meat consumption in light of the obvious limitations. just ignoring the problem isn't going to cut it.
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Take another look, in the cases where babies died one set of parents rejected medical services for homeopathy, in the other they opted for 'faith healing'.
The Wikipedia page you linked to states flatly the connection with counter-culture.
This is prime tin foil hat territory and no one who rejects established medicine is pretty much guaranteed to reject the report.
 
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