What even is "Grinding".

[Garbarrage]

I’m curious to know what you’re calling “intolerable levels of grind”, particularly where the post Horizons content is concerned, as well as what you think would be a better means of making this content accessible.

When I say "intolerable" I'm referring to my own tolerance. I'm fairly certain that I'm not alone here though, judging by how common a theme it is on the various forums.

They could make it more accessible by not relying on repetition. Simple, unchallenging content repeated multiple times. Wake scanning, repeated circuits of Guardian sites etc. I could list way more examples but it has all been repeated enough times on this forum to become a grind in itself.

 

[fu9ar]

And then you ignore our suggestions to try using a ship that would make combat more difficult instead of the min-maxed overpowered ship you yourself chose to grind for and all of the other things we do to switch up our experience to reduce the subjective perception of grind, but then you respond with some vague handwave about "muh playstyle." and then we ignore you because you're not willing to listen. We do listen and then offer advice, but you aren't interested in anything but complaining, so we stop trying to help.

 

[House0fDerp]

And then you ignore our suggestions to try using a ship that would make combat more difficult and all of the other things we do to switch up our experience to reduce the subjective perception of grind, but then you respond with some vague handwave about "muh playstyle." and we ignore you because you're not willing to listen. We do listen and then offer advice, but you aren't interested in anything but complaining.

Sure, one can chose to break up the grind by intentionally nerfing themselves at the task for the sake of variety. It doesn't get the job done faster, quite the opposite in fact, but subjectively, yes, could make you feel better.

But if part of your complaint is how long it's taking I'm not sure that addresses the issue so much as it just tries to take your mind off of it by ignoring it for a while. And some people probably don't think the best solution is ignoring the issues they have with the game.

 

[60mm]

How does one gather Raw mats for engineering without driving the SRV for hours on end in circles picking stuff up on the ground, or is that classified as gameplay now?

Mining doesn't count. Stacking Phosphorus and Sulfur isn't going to engineer anything.

Note; I'm not against SRVs, only against being forced to do repetitive mindless tasks to progress.

SRVs are a goddamn blast. Honestly, it's getting to a point where I'd rather try and break free from a body's gravity in an SRV than hunt another wing of NPC Annies.

To each their own, yeah? I refuse to mine. You don't like SRVs. I'm not grinding. You are grinding.

Reading what you quote and respond to would help. To repeat myself, I have no issue with using the SRV to accomplish tasks. I just don't want to drive in circles picking up stuff off the ground. That is literally more mindless than farmville. You are clearly ok with spending time on such tasks, but that is the definition of grind. Absolutely nothing is required but your time. Mining, on the other hand, at least has a process involved. Perhaps that's the part that turns you off.

That's a shame for you having to drive your buggy. It really is.
Particularly when I view it so, so differently.
I sometimes just land on a planet and drive my buggy for no in-game "rewards" at all, just to enjoy the views.
PvP combat on the other hand. Personally, I find it tedious.
But it's good we're all different and enjoy different things, wouldn't you agree?

I'm sure you would have no issue with other necessary components in the game to only be accessible via PvP kills. Since I need raw mats via driving SRVs in circles, which many don't enjoy, to fit my combat ship, why not have your SRV fuel drop from combat kills, which you don't enjoy.

You obviously have no issues with other people being required to do things you like whether they like it or not, so this should round out the gaming experience you approve of.

Boy, the white knight temp is skyrocketing.

 

[WinterKing2112]

That second video is wildly inappropriate! Won't somebody think of the children?

Without that sort of grind there won't be no children!

 

[WinterKing2112]

That's the key thing.

Almost every game in the world could be considered "repetitive" insofar as you have to do similar things over and over to progress through the game.
Does a racing game involve "grind" if you have to do multiple laps?
Does a shooter involve "grind" if you have to kill a heap of baddies?

It's the "unchallenging" aspect of an activity that defines it as "grind".
When the only thing standing between you and success is the willingness to do the same thing over and over (and over), that's grind.

If something in a game is unchallenging, but you still like doing it, is that still grind? I actually like driving round on a planet blasting rocks for a while. I do get bored after a while and go back to my ship and continue exploring. But then I get bored of exploring after a while, so then I do some mining until my ship's hold is full, by which time I have had enough of mining. So I go back to the bubble and sell the explo data and those opals and diamonds, pick up another ship, run some missions or do some bounty hunting. Eventually get bored of that. So it's back to exploring again. I like all aspects of this game but I can only do them for so long before I am ready to move onto another activity. So am I grinding? If so, I like grinding!

 

[WinterKing2112]

False. You don't have to be a "completionist" to be in need of unlocking most (if not all) engineers. If you want to engage in competitive PvP, the single most challenging (or, better put, the only challenging) activity in this game, you'll have to keep staring at a heck of a lot of loading screens in order to unlock Palin for the G5 dirty drives and mine many tons of ores for Selene Jean for her armour mods. And not only that, you'll need the best mods for power distributors, power plants, shields, shield boosters and pretty much all the weapons. Even FSD (faster boot sequence), sensor (lightweight or long range) and life support (lightweight or reinforced/shielded) mods can come in handy. Oh, and let's not forget about other defence modules such as high ammo capacity heatsinks/chaff launchers and rapid charge recycling cell shield cell banks.

You'll need to unlock all these engineers to be able to stand a chance against the engineered ships of other players. And engineered ships are not only better by a very large margin, they are a lot more fun to fly. But the fun is locked behind a pretty thick grind wall.

Is there not a PvP game out there that does not involve all this "grinding"? You know, just buy a space ship and get stuck into shooting other players? Obviously there isn't or we would not have the huge volume of complaints from PvP players in this forum.I think someone needs to make that game then a lot of unhappy Elite PvPers would be off happily playing that game and not choking this forum with their constant and unrelenting negativity.

 

[Muzz UK]

Grinding has existed in games for a looooong time I think the issue is the actual task complexity to achieve said grind. When the grind involves farming the same enemy, mob or ship with a very low drop rate as opposed to delivering some to 3 points on a map or in the galaxy it becomes more apparent as the task becomes samey and repetitive.

Difficulty is a factor as well.

If you find combat hard or don't enjoy combat then that task will present more of a grind. Elite is in no way worse than any other MMO game in terms of repeating endless tasks to get things. If you objectively set yourself a defined goal over a short period of time it's going to get boring. I think I set myself long term tasks in Elite and if I log on and don't achieve those I don't get to fussed I enjoy the time I spent on discord with friends and hopefully if I haven't found my selenium or unlocked my bit of guardian tech my squadron friends have at least done something.

I mean sometimes it's just nice to log in sit in space admiring the view.

 

[galahad2069]

Is there not a PvP game out there that does not involve all this "grinding"? You know, just buy a space ship and get stuck into shooting other players? Obviously there isn't or we would not have the huge volume of complaints from PvP players in this forum.I think someone needs to make that game then a lot of unhappy Elite PvPers would be off happily playing that game and not choking this forum with their constant and unrelenting negativity.

Sorry, but I'm not sure I'm following you. Which one is "choking this forum with constant and unrelenting negativity"?

Pointing out that a video game has certain bugs or design flaws, on a public forum specifically created for discussions about said game?

Or pointing out that someone had a false statement in one of their posts?

 

[WinterKing2112]

Is there not a PvP game out there that does not involve all this "grinding"? You know, just buy a space ship and get stuck into shooting other players? Obviously there isn't or we would not have the huge volume of complaints from PvP players in this forum.I think someone needs to make that game then a lot of unhappy Elite PvPers would be off happily playing that game and not choking this forum with their constant and unrelenting negativity.

I just realised something: some PvPers are gankers. Some PvPers complain bitterly and incessantly on this forum because they can't have G5-rated God ships with only a few hours of farming mats. So I am starting to think that Engineering's not the problem, "grinding" is not the problem, Frontier is not the problem and ED most certainly is not the problem. I am thinking that part of the problem is that group within the PvP community who just seem to exist to spread negativity, either by ganking other players or constantly moaning on the forum.

But is this really surprising seeing as these people cannot get any enjoyment out of this game without blowing up someone else's spaceship?

 

[WinterKing2112]

Sorry, but I'm not sure I'm following you. Which one is "choking this forum with constant and unrelenting negativity"?

Pointing out that a video game has certain bugs or design flaws, on a public forum specifically created for discussions about said game?

Or pointing out that someone had a false statement in one of their posts?

Please explain that last sentence, I think I know what you mean but I'm not sure.

 

[WinterKing2112]

I didn't "burn myself out", I stopped playing because I'd exhausted the old content and all the new content had intolerable (imo) levels of grind attached to it.

This was in fact FD's "fault" insofar as there's nobody else to blame. I mean, they created the content and associated mechanics. See how that works?

Bear in mind also, that I don't believe they owe me anything. I bought Horizons pre-release and understood fully that I was paying for content that I hadn't yet seen, and accepted that it might not live up to expectations. That doesn't mean that I'm not disappointed with my purchase though. It's unlikely that I'll so readily give FD money for unseen content in future.

I've seen other games fail to live up to expectations before and seen where they've ended up. I'm not saying "the game is dead" though. It's much worse than that. Interest fades, people go elsewhere or stop paying attention, funds aren't as forthcoming, then the content suffers and games circle the drain for sometimes an age. While I don't think ED is there yet, I think they're only a bad update or two away from it.

Space legs and atmospheric planets will drum up interest again, but my guess based on my experience with FD, is that there will be intolerable levels of grind attached.

You did not mention Fleet carriers. The latest info drop has generated a HUGE amount of excitement.

 

[WinterKing2112]

Grinding has existed in games for a looooong time I think the issue is the actual task complexity to achieve said grind. When the grind involves farming the same enemy, mob or ship with a very low drop rate as opposed to delivering some to 3 points on a map or in the galaxy it becomes more apparent as the task becomes samey and repetitive.

Difficulty is a factor as well.

If you find combat hard or don't enjoy combat then that task will present more of a grind. Elite is in no way worse than any other MMO game in terms of repeating endless tasks to get things. If you objectively set yourself a defined goal over a short period of time it's going to get boring. I think I set myself long term tasks in Elite and if I log on and don't achieve those I don't get to fussed I enjoy the time I spent on discord with friends and hopefully if I haven't found my selenium or unlocked my bit of guardian tech my squadron friends have at least done something.

I mean sometimes it's just nice to log in sit in space admiring the view.

Or just sit in your SRV looking up at the stars and the gas giant on the horizon, listening to that slightly creepy piano music. Oh boy, I gotta go play.....

 

[galahad2069]

Please explain that last sentence, I think I know what you mean but I'm not sure.

Do you think I was "choking the forum" by simply pointing out a false statement?

 

[Alec Turner]

NOTE: if anyone has any thoughts/questions/comments on the subject of grind and/or what FD can do to change/improve things then Lave Radio are asking for people to send their ideas to info@laveradio.com as they're running short of things to discuss on this, the longest running of Elite Dangerous radio show/podcasts and want to try and encourage more community input.

 

[Brrokk]

Is there not a PvP game out there that does not involve all this "grinding"? You know, just buy a space ship and get stuck into shooting other players? Obviously there isn't or we would not have the huge volume of complaints from PvP players in this forum.I think someone needs to make that game then a lot of unhappy Elite PvPers would be off happily playing that game and not choking this forum with their constant and unrelenting negativity.

Isn't that CQC?

 

[Garbarrage]

The problem is that group within the PvP community who just seem to exist to spread negativity,

It's not only PvP players who think that there is too much grind. The only PvP that I've experienced in this game was getting one-shotted by a silent running FGS at a CG, a couple of duels with a mate in the early days flying Eagles and getting rail gunned while trying to get into a station in a cargo ship.

Not all PvP players are gankers. Aren't there groups who organised tournaments fuelling in cheap ships?

You did not mention Fleet carriers. The latest info drop has generated a HUGE amount of excitement.

I think you're overestimating the excitement around carriers. No doubt within the echo chamber of remaining players and the forums there are players excited by this, but I can't see hordes of players coming back to check them out. I reckon it's easily possible to continue to play outside of squadrons and never to see a carrier.

They also seem to have very limited applications. I mean what exactly are they going to be used for? Jumping squadrons 500ly at a time? What are the other benefits? Genuine question.

 

[WinterKing2112]

It's not only PvP players who think that there is too much grind. The only PvP that I've experienced in this game was getting one-shotted by a silent running FGS at a CG, a couple of duels with a mate in the early days flying Eagles and getting rail gunned while trying to get into a station in a cargo ship.

Not all PvP players are gankers. Aren't there groups who organised tournaments fuelling in cheap ships?

I think you're overestimating the excitement around carriers. No doubt within the echo chamber of remaining players and the forums there are players excited by this, but I can't see hordes of players coming back to check them out. I reckon it's easily possible to continue to play outside of squadrons and never to see a carrier.

They also seem to have very limited applications. I mean what exactly are they going to be used for? Jumping squadrons 500ly at a time? What are the other benefits? Genuine question.

If you had read my post properly you would have understood that it was a subset of PvPers I was talking about.

 

[WinterKing2112]

Isn't that CQC?

Never played it meself, and it's obviously not that good 'cos the PvPers don't appear to be playing it either!

 

[60mm]

Never played it meself, and it's obviously not that good 'cos the PvPers don't appear to be playing it either!

The problem with CQC isn't that it's not good. It's that it is a separate game and not integrated into ED. As people keep saying, if only you could jump in for a match when docked, then there would be people playing.