cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug
The Star Citizen Thread V10
- Thread starter Sir.Tj
- Start date
- Status
cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
A bit more specific details and links:
The first time I am aware Chris mentioned explicitly the posisbility of breaking the 110 systems committment was in Septembre 2016: "I think we have 110 now – we're not going to have them all done on the day of release. We're going to try to get a good chunk of them though."
The 5-10 systems quote comes directly from Chris in an article in the German magazine Gamestar in July 2017 (I believe it was printed edition only). That created lots of debate and salty posts in reddit and the official forums.
So a couple weeks later CIG thought they should qualify his statement. This statement alone brought in a whole new different topic. What is release then?
To be honest, CIG have been trying to reduce expectations gradually for some time now, not just in systems but pretty much accross the board. The most serious attempt to that was a random 104TC (23:10 if time stamp does not work) in April 2016 where Chris himself all of a sudden introduced the Minimum Viable Product concept into the picture.
Whatever the final content for launch is the fact is CIG is still selling the whole content and the whole committment at full price. Some prices are actually still going up. There is absolutely no indication at its store or website that the commercial release product will be as serverly cut of content as stated in those links. Any casual passer by that takes a look at SC will never have any hint this is the case and will still pay full price thinking all in the stretch goals, design articles etc and store will be at launch as advertised in the CIG site, unless he randomly encounters these scattered pieces of info. The right and ethical thing to do for CIG would be to state the same thing officially in their stretch goals page and in rest of content committments, design articles, web store etc.
Last edited:
A bit foaming at the mouth...do you class everyone who likes bits of this project enough to play it as a blight on society? I think you should be pointing your well honed people perception a bit closer to home bud
I don't ing care how deluded people like you who still support this scam think about my response to that post, I have more respect for things like Daikatana, Sim City 2013, Peter Molyneux, Sean Murray, Electronic Arts, Activision, Bethesda, Ubisoft, Rockstar, Konami, and literally all those other gaming companies and entities that have been perceived as greedy evil bad guys by the whole gaming community, all of them combined, and let me just add some more, those greedy small-medium indie developers that were sold out to Epic Store and betrayed their fanbase/KS backers/supporters, Epic games themselves, and all other ole developers and publishers that you can possibly know or heard about, you name it.
all of them combined are better than CIG and the likes of you.
oh wait, let's throw Intel, Nvidia, Google, Facebook, and all other greedy evil tech companies in the mix as well, combine all of them and they are all still better than star citizen period.
is my mouth foaming and am I having a seizure typing this post? I do not ing care. Fact still remain the same, 8 years, 300 millions dollars, questionable unethical practices married with accompanying innumerable continual annual promises to bait people with more sales, and yet zero game delivered with practically huge majority of the promises remain unfulfilled all while the top people responsible for the scam practically have been personally enriched year by year.
it's not even that it cannot be done... such an expansive massive all encompassing game would literally cannot be played. You would need to literally live in the game.
I also noticed the cultists changed their narrative to "1 system is plenty enough because planets are big" by now. This has been floating around for quite some time, but now is the standard answer to the terrible delivery times for just 1 planet (the pace seems to be around 4 months for 1 planet and its moons). By 2023 maybe they can be done with Stanton, or even deliver a 2nd system !! So much for exploration...
Only the most faithful cultists remain now, and some foolish stragglers like MoleHD or me who think that "something" might emerge from the primordial soup that is the current pile of code. That "something" will certainly be light years from what was promised, but might stand on its own, if we ignore all the hype and bloated promises. I do launch the alpha "persistent universe" (note that's it's not persistent yet, and there is no universe to speak of..) from time to time to have a peek into the madness.. there is not much to see at the moment, maybe after another decade of cult-fuelled development, who knows...
Truth be told we (and other places) have discussed such an all encompassing game in the past and how difficult (impossible?) it would be to address all areas equally to satisfy different tastes. Which would also mean that depending on peoples taste specific areas of the game would be all but neglected or hardly used even tho development poured time, effort and money into it to flesh it out.
This is the main reason why companies and games today make a hard decision right at the very start, bypassing large parts of the total gaming community by defining a game and what they want it to be. Many games try to "soften" the boundaries by implementing mechanics and features from other games but if you want to combine the FPS and sim genre together chances are you ll end up with a result that has two subpar components when evaluated individually (like in SC....) rather then excelling in one.
And frankly Chris Roberts DID promise everything to everybody in the past. Multiplayer scenarios of epic scale? Sure! Solo-player experiences that would be indistinguishable from playing with other people? Yes! A galaxy that would beat anything else in known games regarding size and content density? Certainly! AI that would be almost human-like in its complexity? and so on and so on. You could fill BOOKS with the things people think or expect to be in the game.
And while its true that SC is in active development and far from finished meaning it "could" theoretically come together at some point there is a shell or construct of a base in place on which shoulders all these things are expected to run. And that shell doesnt look impressive nor robust enough to allow for those feats underlying a very stark difference between the "dream" and "reality".
Personally I see what SC is right now and what people expect it to become upon release and I tell myself "bloody impossible" so adjustments have to be made and if we are honest CIG is working on adjustments for the last 3 years or so continually diminishing the dream and what people have to expect from it upon release all in order to soften the shock when SC releases eventually. Expected content greatly reduced, release happening in tid-bits starting out with a base construct that wont resemble the dream in any way or form, talks about a Minimal Viable Product and of course the everpresent "hoarding" of things to release everything together in a perfect state rather then delivering finished pieces for the community to evaluate. CRoberts is working really hard to reduce the expectations and obligations he himself has created and more important....received cash for over the years.
I could be overly negative towards Star Citizen but I think its better to question and doubt rather then blindly believe and thus stop looking for answers....probably the reason why I am an atheist too. I m simply not satisfied with "its an alpha" or a "god will provide" because I still have to form an opinion and perform actions in the meantime until we all know for sure.
Regardless...Star Citizen has been a hell of a ride so far. Had its ups and downs, made me question and change my opinion multiple times. It had great people discussing it from all angles....it had its hordes of toxics trying to stir up trouble and regarding post protocol and the written english language I can say I have learned a great deal since I joined this pocket of space all these years ago. I dont think people coming in now or reading up on CIG and Star Citizen can even begin to comprehend the old-timers who lived on scraps of information and empty promises for months on end, always thinking about something they "want" and finetuning their own personal vision of the BDSSE.
"Just be patient and wait". YES!!!! THANK YOU!!!! exactly what we had to do for years already, we all did because you know....patches or news from CIG were sparse and often enough CIG didnt deem us worthy to communicate critical changes so we had to dig, listen to rumors and figure out stuff ourselves.
"If you dont like it just leave". Not an option! I spent years of my time to watch, observe and participate in this topic. Forming my own view and opinion, defended it against personal attacks and re-evaluated them constantly whenever news or reports hit the deck. After all that investment I m going to see this through to its end if I live long enough (only 45 right now but you never know....). That I m not a fanboy or impressed or happy with Star Citizen doesnt negate my view even tho so many people would love to force me if they could. In fact when I compare other peoples view I often am surprised how little they know about their chosen project but think they are "superior" to me because they invested money or think its the best game ever.
Valid arguments and worries have been brought up and re-posted in various forms in order to make them understandable. But there are so many on the pro-SC side who instantly disregard reason and facts making up their own reality to an extent that makes #notacult remarks not just trolling but real risks.
"Its just a game"...usually brought up in a games defense is something many people entwined in Star Citizen seem to have forgotten. Not only WILL Star Citizen be THE BEST DAMN SPACE SIMULATOR EVER and make all other pityful games obsolete (so its okay to ridicule and attack current games and competition)...it ALREADY IS so much better then all those other games combined. Such a view doesnt allow for changes and can only be fortified if the person in question is unable to admit mistakes and "man up" to wrong decisions. We are on the internet and while we can run into individuals who are able to show such a mature behavior fact is that most of the users do not and stray away from fact-finding and adult discussions in favor of "winning an argument...no matter what".
It can be frustrating and aggrevating at times. It can be hilarious and entertaining. Sometimes it offers participations which are simply awesome. After all these years repetitions are unavoidable and new people joining the discussion have a big backlog they need to work through before they are able to participate in the same capacity as people who were here from the start experiencing all the changes personally.
Dropping in once a year...sampling a couple of posts and making up your mind about the whole community based on that.....sorry, you really are not qualified for that kind of judgement.
My wife knows about my trivial "obsession" but never developed an interest that made her stay on top of it or participate. She also questions me every few months on "whats new in Star Citizen" (frankly...I suspect she has darker motives for that....knowing full well it ll trigger a never-ending monologue where I try my best to provide insight and details to an extent where her eyes start to lose focus after just a minute...why take a pill when your husband provides a 100% successful mean for sleep right?
) and this has become kind of a running joke between us because for the last 6 months my intial reply usually is "this cant go on much longer" so when its still very much a thing 2 months later we both laugh about it and I am again in awe at the backers so heavily invested and drawn in that they cannot do anything else then keep this corpse breathing but hardly anything more then that despite the lack of progress or results coming out of CIG.Star Citizen really is going to fill BOOKS at the end to give a detailed account on its development history. Some people already jockey for pole positions in such books and have pretty much managed to tie their names permanently to the game even tho they dont work on it in any capacity. The majority of gamers wont care about the details, it ll be a grand and epic story like something out of EVE online....awesome and mind-boggling but unable to transport the months and years or preperation, real emotions and effort that went into just a few short lines.
I m just glad I found this in time and was able to join in the early days so I have context and my memories.
TL: DR
Why Star Citizen is doomed to fail. Man puts his wife to sleep with words. Generational conflict surrounding a video game.
Hate to break to you but I`m 99% positive that SC (if ever released) will jump on console market. Why I think that? First, (lets assume it will get released) they should stop aggressive ship selling. With the assumption that pretty much everybody interested in this project probably already pre-purchase it by backing I cant really see good money flow from future sales. So unless CIG wont back from selling every in game piece of content and currency after release (pay-to win anybody?) they will ship SC to every console they can in my opinion no matter if it means stripping the game from its pretty details.
I dont trust a word they saying and the fact that in very first KS material SC was advertized "I`m a PC game" means nothing.
Anyone cant wait for SC mobile?
Right now even monster desktop set-ups truggle with Star Citizen. Not as heavily as it used to be the case last year but its still far away from being able to run on consoles. And we are not talking about "can" but "being able to compete with current day games" on the market. How far will CIG have to turn down the visuals in order to enable SC to run on consoles you think? More importingly, consoles offering a "get into the action quick" guarantee for almost all the titles...how well would a game like Star Citizen be perceived where you waste hours on nothing but running around and reaching any point of interest?
While the console market is massive I doubt very much that Star Citizen will be able to tap into it in any meaningful way. Certainly not enough to justify the port effort to even make such a thing possible in the first place.
While the console market is massive I doubt very much that Star Citizen will be able to tap into it in any meaningful way. Certainly not enough to justify the port effort to even make such a thing possible in the first place.
Dont you worry about it, the Magical Germans will find a way I agree that right now it would be impossible as you said the game runs poorly on newest PCs, but we know that original Cry Engine can work on consoles. Assuming the game is out, and the code/graphics gets real optimization I see no reason for console version. But all this are my personal "what ifs" and "assumptions" of course.
As you said it has been helluva ride so far participating and now observing the process, so eventual consolization of the project will be great to watch!
I agree that right now it would be impossible as you said the game runs poorly on newest PCs, but we know that original Cry Engine can work on consoles. Assuming the game is out, and the code/graphics gets real optimization I see no reason for console version. But all this are my personal "what ifs" and "assumptions" of course. As you said it has been helluva ride so far participating and now observing the process, so eventual consolization of the project will be great to watch!
"it's not even that it cannot be done... such an expansive massive all encompassing game would literally cannot be played. You would need to literally live in the game "
I have a strong hunch that living in the game is what the more avid supporters have in mind.
I have a strong hunch that living in the game is what the more avid supporters have in mind.
I don’t have disposable income. I work retail, and would like to retire in 16 years, with a reduction in hours work to my grandfathered 28 hour “full time” ten years before that. So I have an entertainment budget instead. As such, I expect good value for what I spend.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
It almost looks like a scam. Whether it technically is or not is by the by when the outcome is the same.
Thanks to all for the replies - much appreciated.
I think Surefoot's reply perfectly encapsulates why I find this whole mess such a huge and depressing shame. Decent ordinary folks who just wanted a different space game have been very badly let down by CR. Having done a few more tours around the sun than many I knew his track record and invested no money at all, concerned that the project would go off the rails just as before. And so I have watched from the sidelines in despair and annoyance as he has repeated himself. My concern all along was that (extra) money won't achieve results, but only encourage ever more impossible dreams.
If one looks at the progress that both ED and (especially) HG have been making, whatever their perceived faults, this project seems ever more a homage to 'Spinal Tap'.
Last edited:
I think Sean Murray and the whole of HG deserves huge respect. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the release furore, they have worked hard, delivering real added value to the game, making it something way more than many would have imagineered even in their wildest dreams.
What I want to see:
A complete barebones 500 planet mock up- the planets would reuse a generic moon or just be smooth, with completed planets as they are. Let people wander about and stretch the legs of the code. Make mockups of all promised ships as well- but the important thing is to stop this CR obsession with holding up production to redo pebbles and other micro features.
A complete barebones 500 planet mock up- the planets would reuse a generic moon or just be smooth, with completed planets as they are. Let people wander about and stretch the legs of the code. Make mockups of all promised ships as well- but the important thing is to stop this CR obsession with holding up production to redo pebbles and other micro features.
Truth be told you dont even need a game for that. If you are prone to such visions of grandeur losing yourself in epic scale wish dreams you can practically live in your own alternative reality despite the real state of the game you base your wishes on. Some will suffer from a reality check once they delve into it for real but there certainly are some who will stand by their own reality changing expectations and perceptions on the fly to fit their narrative.
Games as a service today basically try to do what you describe. Draw the player into their games as much as humanly possible. Players spending 10-12 hours a day or even full days is not as rare as we might think especially in other countries around the world. Most games become boring after a while requiering more and more content or an increasing complexity to keep peoples interest in the long run but that means that most games start with a basic version and expand and evolve from there over time which allows them to change and adjust to the current communities needs and wishes.
This is the first and biggest problem of Star Citizen and its hardcore fans.
Star Citizen will release ALL IN ONE with everything promised and so much more. Working perfectly, offering its full metas from day 1 and offering more in content and complexity then a normal player can possible consume for years. This is already an impossible feat equal to a painter trying to paint his masterpiece in one go bypassing the trial runs, try-outs and of course raw sketches which are all integral parts of any painting or product. And of course CIG is doing exactly what every other company is doing as well. Going in small steps and making their way up as they go. They dont seem to be aware of their limitations or their endgoal instead just wildly trying out new stuff and going in as many directions as possible maybe hoping for a lucky hit or just using it as a possible mental bridge for believers to demonstrate that they are tackling everything at once. Somehow along the way a lot of people still cling to the misconception that CIG holds back critical volumes of content and features, all done and finished, just waiting in the background for CIG to "flip a switch" and releasing everything in one go. CIG devs having access to special and secret "dev builds" that are so advanced that the success of the project is a foregone conclusion and not a probability. Complete faith into CRoberts capabilities despite all the evidence we gathered over the years pointing to the opposite.
No game today is big enough in the long run. Some games offer an incredibly large world to play in. Far Cry 5 and also Assassins Creed Odyssey did that to me at first...dumping me in an overwhelming world with access to almost all features from the beginning to the extend that it was paralyzing for me, making me unsure as to what to do or where to go. Over time experience and familiarity diminished the firstwhile perceived scope and size greatly and soon the world and thus game became managable or "sufficient". I am now at a point with these games where I wish for even bigger worlds and more complexity because I have internalized the base game to an extent where doing anything doesnt require effort or special attention anymore.
EVE online is a game that did this over the years. It also constantly faced the challenge of allowing new players to ease into its increasing scope without alienating or scaring them away. Even then EVE today is often too large too overwhelming for people who never played it before and it requires extra discipline and effort to get into it.
And of course every game while changing over time has hard limits to the extents it can change. If the developers didnt plan ahead for certain things to happen 5 years from now then the implementations will often be all but impossible to do on the old platform requireing a completely new game which offers those foundations.
Somehow people ascribe CIG the capability to hold such an incredibly large picture in its head following a red line through development and having planned for almost every eventuality in painstaking detail. Despite the interviews, dev reports or news coming out of it pointing very clearly to mismanagement, confusion and limits that cannot be overcome. Hard technical facts which some more involved players have gleaned directly from the game code (thinking of ASP here....) or through test runs are at stark opposites with what pro-SC fans think the game is capable of. Often enough now SC has come up with its own language, distorting established terms in order to "fit" their own version. These specialized terms act like a magic barrier for SC to avoid direct comparison allowing people to put it on a pedestal even tho they do exactly the same as everybody else.
It might be because I m a hater and disbeliever but frankly I cannot see the scope and ambition in anything CIG delivers. I certainly listen to the statements and promises made prior to patch releases but its the same as people telling me constantly that the sky is yellow...its blue/white to me and people trying to force their own view on me needs to come up with compelling arguments to change my view. Instead usually they point and label me with all kinds of deregatory terms and ridicule me in order to express how I am not "one of them"...which doesnt mean I m wrong mind you.
Wow. That's unethical at best, and obviously misleading.
It's just history repeating itself. The 'rule of thumb' in recruitment is that the surest indicator of future performance is previous performance.
- Status