Major Directional Change - Migrate ED to a First-person RTS

If you stop at the thread title, fair enough. It’s admittedly misleading. But the description, and the subsequent posts make it clear enough that the aim is to keep existing gameplay.

Yet it would turn all existing gameplay into an unimportant vestige. Everything we currently have would in the end just be the stepping stone to the game you want to turn ED into. You'd just have to make your way to it, till you can reach the "endgame" of being an admiral, commanding your fleet and building your powerbase.

I mean yes, it's clearly along the lines of famous titles like Call of Starcraft, where you first have to play in FPS style till you get promoted, to then go to RTS mode and command troops on the field?

Sorry, but the title IS more matching than you now claim it to be. Your suggestion would very much turn ED into a completely different game. And while it might not be a bad game pe se, it's vastly different from what ED was up to now. And it's a change which at least i would not welcome. I'm all for improving the current game, new content, etc. But not completely different "endgame" gameplay.
 
Yet it would turn all existing gameplay into an unimportant vestige. Everything we currently have would in the end just be the stepping stone to the game you want to turn ED into. You'd just have to make your way to it, till you can reach the "endgame" of being an admiral, commanding your fleet and building your powerbase.

I mean yes, it's clearly along the lines of famous titles like Call of Starcraft, where you first have to play in FPS style till you get promoted, to then go to RTS mode and command troops on the field?

Sorry, but the title IS more matching than you now claim it to be. Your suggestion would very much turn ED into a completely different game. And while it might not be a bad game pe se, it's vastly different from what ED was up to now. And it's a change which at least i would not welcome. I'm all for improving the current game, new content, etc. But not completely different "endgame" gameplay.

“Call of Starcraft” 😂. That’s a good one.

I’m currently thinking on how this can be balanced so that current methods of influence on the BGS remain competitive and proportional.

ED is a play your own way kind of game. I’m suggesting an additional way to play to keep more players involved once they’ve done practically everything else. But not everyone wants to command a Navy. Neither does this additional gameplay take away the fun of going solo for pirating, bounty hunting, exploration, etc, or for winging up for combat or other missions. Just like there are long time players who aren’t all about the grind, and engineering, and owning all the big ships to min-max them, there will be plenty of players who won’t care about being an Admiral.

To be clear, if I can’t find a way to balance it so that other play styles remain viable, then I’ll be against it as well.

As for it being a different game, that’s arguable. As I’ve explained in other posts, it’s essentially adding new interfaces and tools to interact with existing assets and underlying systems, so it’s mostly leveraging what currently exists, and working with the existing rules.
 
To be clear, if I can’t find a way to balance it so that other play styles remain viable, then I’ll be against it as well.

As for it being a different game, that’s arguable. As I’ve explained in other posts, it’s essentially adding new interfaces and tools to interact with existing assets and underlying systems, so it’s mostly leveraging what currently exists, and working with the existing rules.

That's simply where I have my doubts. I mean, your OP also includes how it would replace current gameplay (sometimes seen as grind) by having NPCs to do things for you. Which in my eyes very clearly would mean that NPCs would do the "old style" gaming for you, while you just issue commands on the "new style". I've seen either thing over the run of the years. The best example of what you describe would be Natural Selection. It's just that, a FPS in "Human versus Zerg" style, where the human side also has a commander (map mode), managing upgrades, handling resources, providing equipment and issuing orders.

The game is designed like that ground up. And still it has issues. Many players are all like "I play FPS, I never enter the command console". While some are like "I am commander, I don't want to shoot". The number of people who not only like both parts but are good in either is surprisingly low. It's not without reason that the game is rather niché. Any other game i know, which tries to go two ways has one to really be an rather low priority minigame. (See: duty officers and admirality system in STO, agent system in SWL. )

Now consider that ED is kind of a AAA game while at the same game being a niché game. It's an unusual combination. And now you turn everything around by having a completely new playstyle at hand, which also replaces some of the previous way of playing the game. I just can't see how this could turn out positively for the game.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
To be clear, if I can’t find a way to balance it so that other play styles remain viable, then I’ll be against it as well.
How would the Fleet Controller CMDR be balanced against a new(ish) player in a Type 9 with regard to trade?
As for it being a different game, that’s arguable. As I’ve explained in other posts, it’s essentially adding new interfaces and tools to interact with existing assets and underlying systems, so it’s mostly leveraging what currently exists, and working with the existing rules.
It's a different game in terms of shifting from a "the player does everything for themself in one ship / SRV" game to a "the player is the Fleet Controller of an AI fleet that does as instructed" game - effectively massively multiplying the effects that a Fleet Controller can make with little to no actual gameplay.
 
TL;DR (EDIT: Reorganised)
Progressively shift ED into a First-person real-time strategy game, allowing Commanders to play the BGS and possibly PowerPlay to forge their own persistent and warring mini-empires for greater personal benefit, fame, and glory.

The idea is a bit of a thought in progress.

Context
This idea came about to address two major player gripes in the game.

1. Grind (unnecessary detail in spoiler)
A lot of players complain about grind in ED. Having to repeat the same sequence of actions hundreds or thousands of times to progress is grind, as far as I judge things. YMMV.
If you don't really want to progress in a certain way, or in a certain amount of time, then you may avoid some of that. When there is a mundane aspect to the actions required, that compounds the grind. For example, shooting rocks on a planet surface in an SRV.

Having said that, not all grind is necessarily bad. Grinding in the early game can be fairly seen as a way to earn your stripes, and is not so bad, as it introduces players to all the different activity types, and is a good way to drill the basics into newer players. What's bad is when you grind to a point, so that you can then grind to another point, and then another. This chain of grind is what can grind the fun of progression in this game to a halt.

2. Lack of End Game (unnecessary detail in spoiler)
Once you've amassed billions, and bought and upgraded every ship you wanted to, you've probably tried most if not all available activities in the game, and there's really no further progression for you in terms of achievements and acquisitions in the game. At this point, many players take an extended hiatus from the game, mostly hopping back into the pilot's seat to check out any recently added changes, and then likely taking another leave period.

The coming fleet carriers will be another milestone for the higher tiers of players, but unless the currently unknown details show otherwise when revealed, there won't be any really new activities or goals to achieve with the use of those fleet carriers.

Vision
Once a player has earned their stripes in the early game grind and reached some predefined set of achievements, they are proffered a rank (such as Admiral, or something more fitting) that allows them to commission an AI Naval fleet, and a range of Support Vessels for remote operations. The Admiral must register a faction to begin, then hire AI Pilots of varying types and skill to operate the ships in their Naval Fleet.

Navy Ship Types
  • Mining Rig
  • Trade Vessel
  • Mission Runner (Courier, Cargo Delivery, and Passenger Transport missions only)
  • Combat Ship
Navy Assets
  • Fleet Carriers (multiple)
  • Support Vessels (various types)
  • Capital Ships
  • Main Naval Base
Support Vessels
  • Serve as remote collection points for mined materials and accrued credits (otherwise ships offload at the Main Naval Base)
  • Outfit and defend fleets in their vicinity
  • Each Support Vessel adds to the initial fleet capacity limit
  • There is a limit on the allowable number of Support Vessels in the Navy
Actions
  • Instruct AI Mining rigs where to mine, what to mine for, and which mining tools to use
  • Instruct AI Trade Vessels which commodities to purchase, and define their trade routes
  • Instruct AI Mission Runners which Stations and Factions to accept missions from, what mission types to accept, and set reward and distance parameters
  • Instruct AI Combat Ships to protect any of your Navy's ships or assets, or to enter conflict zones for epic battles
  • Direct battles by giving instructions to your ships in real-time through a new interface, and even join in yourself
  • Create Assassination and Espionage missions to target the assets of your rival Admirals
Gameplay
  • Protect your assets and fleets
  • Manage your revenue and expenses
  • Strategise to spread your influence and dominance in your nook of the galaxy
  • Make war or use diplomacy when clashing with rival Admirals or PowerPlay figures
  • Pledge your Navy to a Power to augment your fleet and get access to Power specials - for a price
  • Reap special rewards and bonuses as you hit or maintain tiered milestones of influence
  • Commanders can sign up to join your Navy
  • Commanders can roam about as Freelancers on limited contracts for specific missions and conflicts, working all sides
With the introduction of fleet carriers and support vessels, most of the major pieces for this idea are already in the game. The BGS would have to be improved some more to cater for the new dynamic, and interfaces would have to be designed for the Admirals to control their fleets and other assets, create custom missions, monitor progress, and to allow them to direct battles, but I don't believe it's as drastic as it may sound.

Once a player has earned their stripes in the early game grind and reached some predefined set of achievements, they are proffered a rank (such as Admiral, or something more fitting) that allows them to commission an AI Naval fleet, and a range of auxiliary facilities for remote operations. The player must register a faction to begin.

The remote auxiliaries serve as collection points for commodities, materials, technologies, credits, and exploration data acquired by AI pilots as well as human players. Depending on the type of auxiliary, it may also serve to augment certain activities, such as a Mining facility with appropriate outfitting and defensive capabilities. This is what I imagine the new Support Vessels will be used for to some degree, though the details are still pending at the time of writing this. In this envisioned implementation, such vessels/facilities won't be permanently tethered to a fleet carrier, in that they can be left on location if the fleet carrier jumps elsewhere.

The AI Naval fleet can be configured according to the player's requirements, to perform functions such as mining, missions (specifically courier, cargo, and passenger transport missions only), player-defined trade runs, and player assigned combat/defense roles. Bounty hunting, pirating, smuggling, exploration, search and rescue, and all mission types other than courier, cargo and passenger transport should remain the sole province of direct human player intervention.

To picture how this would work, think back to a classic RTS like Starcraft, where SCVs collect minerals and vespene gas, but in this case it's materials and credits. Your AI mission runners and trade vessels are like the SCVs, so the first thing you're going to want to do is save up to purchase a small initial fleet of these as your "gold" miners. These will also serve the purpose of increasing your mini-empire's reputation or influence with the factions of your choice, according to your strategy, as well as affecting the commodity market. So you send the trade vessels off on predefined trade runs for specified commodities, and the mission runners will accept any of the three specified mission types at the stations of your choice, with any additional parameters you're able to set. Those ships will continue on that way until told to stop, or until there are no more applicable missions, or they're destroyed.

Next you could purchase a mining Support Vessel, and a fleet of capable mining ships. Unless of course your base station (provided that feature is introduced) is close enough to the mining site to collect materials, in which case you could forego the mining Support Vessel at first. Once you've directed your miners to work on a particular site, they go back and forth also like the SCVs until they're told to stop, or until there's nothing left to mine, or someone destroys them. Like NPC Fighter Pilots, all AI pilots will have ranks, which will increase with experience, and it will be specific to their activity. So a mining ship AI pilot will get better at mining over time. This will translate to better being able to identify specific deposits, better success with detonations, and faster collection.

Somewhere in between these, you'll be wanting fighters to defend your credit and material miners. So you'll purchase these when you're able, keeping in mind that each AI pilot you hire has an ongoing cost which increases with rank, so your revenue must be greater than your expenses in order to keep them employed.

Eventually, you'll be able to amass a significant combat fleet, and use it dispersed across your assets for defense, or gather it in one spot for an epic battle. You will be able to allow the AI to fight unguided, or direct them through an interface built for this feature, and even directly take part in the battles yourself.

Starcraft also had a unit limiter which varied for each race. For Protoss it was PSI through Pylons, for Terran it was Supply via Depots, and for Zerg it was Control via Overlords. This should also be a factor for control and balance. For example, each auxiliary Support Vessel you place should give you an additional X capacity for supportable units in your navy, and there should be a limit on how many Support Vessels you can have.

Admirals can employ their faction and squadron members in their navy, and delegate certain organisational tasks to them. They should also be able to create and customise missions in systems they have influence in, particularly things like assassination, bounty hunting, and new mission types for disrupting mining and trade operations of other Admirals, with set limits on rewards of course, which are only given after the mission is completed. This is for targeted strategies and espionage.

I also think that Capital ships should become available to a player who has reached this rank.

So effectively, the Admiral employs a strategy to gain influence for their faction, and spread it to the areas of their choice, which could bring them up against other Admirals, which could trigger a war, unless players take a diplomatic initiative. How this could work with PowerPlay is either that the Admiral is in direct competition with the existing Powers, or else they become a significant vassal for a Power, such that the player's influence is added to the Power's influence, which could have its own benefits (resources, additional ships, etc). I'm not too sure on that front, as I'm not that knowledgeable in PowerPlay.

Admirals can of course still pilot their own ships and play as they always have. This is more of an optional end game dynamic, but it also provides other commanders with new play opportunities, to join in the wars as members of a player empire, or to work freelance on missions for any sides in a conflict. There could also be AI or Frontier controlled Admirals thrown into the mix.

With the introduction of fleet carriers, most of the major pieces for this idea are already in the game. The BGS would have to be improved some more to cater for the new dynamic, and interfaces would have to be designed for the Admirals to control their fleets and other assets, create custom missions, monitor progress, and to allow them to direct battles, but I don't believe it's as drastic as it may sound.

I was thinking there on what most of this reminded me of...


Yup, that was it.
 
I can understand if your objection is based on a preference for a different development direction, but I still always prefer judging a suggestion on its own merits, i.e. by asking myself, would I have fun playing it?

Well, since I selected ED to play based on the kind pf gameplay I want out of a game then the answer is still no. I wouldn't enjoy playing the sort of game outlined here, so either way the answer is no, actually I am not even sure what the question was.
 
TL;DR (EDIT: Reorganised)
Progressively shift ED into a First-person real-time strategy game, allowing Commanders to play the BGS and possibly PowerPlay to forge their own persistent and warring mini-empires for greater personal benefit, fame, and glory.

The idea is a bit of a thought in progress.

Context
This idea came about to address two major player gripes in the game.

1. Grind (unnecessary detail in spoiler)
A lot of players complain about grind in ED. Having to repeat the same sequence of actions hundreds or thousands of times to progress is grind, as far as I judge things. YMMV.
If you don't really want to progress in a certain way, or in a certain amount of time, then you may avoid some of that. When there is a mundane aspect to the actions required, that compounds the grind. For example, shooting rocks on a planet surface in an SRV.

Having said that, not all grind is necessarily bad. Grinding in the early game can be fairly seen as a way to earn your stripes, and is not so bad, as it introduces players to all the different activity types, and is a good way to drill the basics into newer players. What's bad is when you grind to a point, so that you can then grind to another point, and then another. This chain of grind is what can grind the fun of progression in this game to a halt.

2. Lack of End Game (unnecessary detail in spoiler)
Once you've amassed billions, and bought and upgraded every ship you wanted to, you've probably tried most if not all available activities in the game, and there's really no further progression for you in terms of achievements and acquisitions in the game. At this point, many players take an extended hiatus from the game, mostly hopping back into the pilot's seat to check out any recently added changes, and then likely taking another leave period.

The coming fleet carriers will be another milestone for the higher tiers of players, but unless the currently unknown details show otherwise when revealed, there won't be any really new activities or goals to achieve with the use of those fleet carriers.

Vision
Once a player has earned their stripes in the early game grind and reached some predefined set of achievements, they are proffered a rank (such as Admiral, or something more fitting) that allows them to commission an AI Naval fleet, and a range of Support Vessels for remote operations. The Admiral must register a faction to begin, then hire AI Pilots of varying types and skill to operate the ships in their Naval Fleet.

Navy Ship Types
  • Mining Rig
  • Trade Vessel
  • Mission Runner (Courier, Cargo Delivery, and Passenger Transport missions only)
  • Combat Ship
Navy Assets
  • Fleet Carriers (multiple)
  • Support Vessels (various types)
  • Capital Ships
  • Main Naval Base
Support Vessels
  • Serve as remote collection points for mined materials and accrued credits (otherwise ships offload at the Main Naval Base)
  • Outfit and defend fleets in their vicinity
  • Each Support Vessel adds to the initial fleet capacity limit
  • There is a limit on the allowable number of Support Vessels in the Navy
Actions
  • Instruct AI Mining rigs where to mine, what to mine for, and which mining tools to use
  • Instruct AI Trade Vessels which commodities to purchase, and define their trade routes
  • Instruct AI Mission Runners which Stations and Factions to accept missions from, what mission types to accept, and set reward and distance parameters
  • Instruct AI Combat Ships to protect any of your Navy's ships or assets, or to enter conflict zones for epic battles
  • Direct battles by giving instructions to your ships in real-time through a new interface, and even join in yourself
  • Create Assassination and Espionage missions to target the assets of your rival Admirals
Gameplay
  • Protect your assets and fleets
  • Manage your revenue and expenses
  • Strategise to spread your influence and dominance in your nook of the galaxy
  • Make war or use diplomacy when clashing with rival Admirals or PowerPlay figures
  • Pledge your Navy to a Power to augment your fleet and get access to Power specials - for a price
  • Reap special rewards and bonuses as you hit or maintain tiered milestones of influence
  • Commanders can sign up to join your Navy
  • Commanders can roam about as Freelancers on limited contracts for specific missions and conflicts, working all sides
With the introduction of fleet carriers and support vessels, most of the major pieces for this idea are already in the game. The BGS would have to be improved some more to cater for the new dynamic, and interfaces would have to be designed for the Admirals to control their fleets and other assets, create custom missions, monitor progress, and to allow them to direct battles, but I don't believe it's as drastic as it may sound.

Once a player has earned their stripes in the early game grind and reached some predefined set of achievements, they are proffered a rank (such as Admiral, or something more fitting) that allows them to commission an AI Naval fleet, and a range of auxiliary facilities for remote operations. The player must register a faction to begin.

The remote auxiliaries serve as collection points for commodities, materials, technologies, credits, and exploration data acquired by AI pilots as well as human players. Depending on the type of auxiliary, it may also serve to augment certain activities, such as a Mining facility with appropriate outfitting and defensive capabilities. This is what I imagine the new Support Vessels will be used for to some degree, though the details are still pending at the time of writing this. In this envisioned implementation, such vessels/facilities won't be permanently tethered to a fleet carrier, in that they can be left on location if the fleet carrier jumps elsewhere.

The AI Naval fleet can be configured according to the player's requirements, to perform functions such as mining, missions (specifically courier, cargo, and passenger transport missions only), player-defined trade runs, and player assigned combat/defense roles. Bounty hunting, pirating, smuggling, exploration, search and rescue, and all mission types other than courier, cargo and passenger transport should remain the sole province of direct human player intervention.

To picture how this would work, think back to a classic RTS like Starcraft, where SCVs collect minerals and vespene gas, but in this case it's materials and credits. Your AI mission runners and trade vessels are like the SCVs, so the first thing you're going to want to do is save up to purchase a small initial fleet of these as your "gold" miners. These will also serve the purpose of increasing your mini-empire's reputation or influence with the factions of your choice, according to your strategy, as well as affecting the commodity market. So you send the trade vessels off on predefined trade runs for specified commodities, and the mission runners will accept any of the three specified mission types at the stations of your choice, with any additional parameters you're able to set. Those ships will continue on that way until told to stop, or until there are no more applicable missions, or they're destroyed.

Next you could purchase a mining Support Vessel, and a fleet of capable mining ships. Unless of course your base station (provided that feature is introduced) is close enough to the mining site to collect materials, in which case you could forego the mining Support Vessel at first. Once you've directed your miners to work on a particular site, they go back and forth also like the SCVs until they're told to stop, or until there's nothing left to mine, or someone destroys them. Like NPC Fighter Pilots, all AI pilots will have ranks, which will increase with experience, and it will be specific to their activity. So a mining ship AI pilot will get better at mining over time. This will translate to better being able to identify specific deposits, better success with detonations, and faster collection.

Somewhere in between these, you'll be wanting fighters to defend your credit and material miners. So you'll purchase these when you're able, keeping in mind that each AI pilot you hire has an ongoing cost which increases with rank, so your revenue must be greater than your expenses in order to keep them employed.

Eventually, you'll be able to amass a significant combat fleet, and use it dispersed across your assets for defense, or gather it in one spot for an epic battle. You will be able to allow the AI to fight unguided, or direct them through an interface built for this feature, and even directly take part in the battles yourself.

Starcraft also had a unit limiter which varied for each race. For Protoss it was PSI through Pylons, for Terran it was Supply via Depots, and for Zerg it was Control via Overlords. This should also be a factor for control and balance. For example, each auxiliary Support Vessel you place should give you an additional X capacity for supportable units in your navy, and there should be a limit on how many Support Vessels you can have.

Admirals can employ their faction and squadron members in their navy, and delegate certain organisational tasks to them. They should also be able to create and customise missions in systems they have influence in, particularly things like assassination, bounty hunting, and new mission types for disrupting mining and trade operations of other Admirals, with set limits on rewards of course, which are only given after the mission is completed. This is for targeted strategies and espionage.

I also think that Capital ships should become available to a player who has reached this rank.

So effectively, the Admiral employs a strategy to gain influence for their faction, and spread it to the areas of their choice, which could bring them up against other Admirals, which could trigger a war, unless players take a diplomatic initiative. How this could work with PowerPlay is either that the Admiral is in direct competition with the existing Powers, or else they become a significant vassal for a Power, such that the player's influence is added to the Power's influence, which could have its own benefits (resources, additional ships, etc). I'm not too sure on that front, as I'm not that knowledgeable in PowerPlay.

Admirals can of course still pilot their own ships and play as they always have. This is more of an optional end game dynamic, but it also provides other commanders with new play opportunities, to join in the wars as members of a player empire, or to work freelance on missions for any sides in a conflict. There could also be AI or Frontier controlled Admirals thrown into the mix.

With the introduction of fleet carriers, most of the major pieces for this idea are already in the game. The BGS would have to be improved some more to cater for the new dynamic, and interfaces would have to be designed for the Admirals to control their fleets and other assets, create custom missions, monitor progress, and to allow them to direct battles, but I don't believe it's as drastic as it may sound.


Yeah nicely formatted! yeah i get what your going for, i mean i am into strategy games, or even MMO with FPS that can be dictated at the strategic level, a weak example i can use there is probably RO Rising Storm, from which the Commander Role is more strategy based in some respects. As expected though, i knew there would be push back against this idea, its not a terribly bad idea, although still flawed in some areas, although i'm not expecting you comb through every detail, although its always good since i do like problem solving/theory crafting when it comes to game mechanics. That said i get what people in the thread are saying, that it will rob some of the charm or identity away from ED. I mean i'm quite surprised alot of folks are quite positive about carriers given when i mentioned similar-ish ideas to yours, the vibe i got off other people was that you are kinda meant to be a small cog in the machine.

Never know though what the future holds & people opinions can change over time, especially as more players start playing the game. Heard about the fleet mechanic in NMS, so i suspect at some stage, some may want to see that, which put your partly on course to your concept. But for now can also understand people wanting other certain mechanics prioritized, fixing or re-balancing.
 
Last edited:

Lestat

Banned
You know there a lot of games where you control a Country, Faction or superpower. Let name a few. Civilization, Star Ruler, Master or Orian.
 
CMDR Novindus your concept is cool, this could be a more direct way to interact with the BGS. Instead of having to submit a plea to Fdev to create your faction, it could all be done in-game and have more tools to know your faction's stats. As often as the forums cry "got my billion wut now?" you'd think people would get this, especially as often as owning/building stations comes up. Also everyone that said balancing needs to happen first GTFO, the game is currently still in development balancing will continue, your OP meta ship will be outdated next year get used to it.
 
That's simply where I have my doubts. I mean, your OP also includes how it would replace current gameplay (sometimes seen as grind) by having NPCs to do things for you. Which in my eyes very clearly would mean that NPCs would do the "old style" gaming for you, while you just issue commands on the "new style". I've seen either thing over the run of the years. The best example of what you describe would be Natural Selection. It's just that, a FPS in "Human versus Zerg" style, where the human side also has a commander (map mode), managing upgrades, handling resources, providing equipment and issuing orders.

The game is designed like that ground up. And still it has issues. Many players are all like "I play FPS, I never enter the command console". While some are like "I am commander, I don't want to shoot". The number of people who not only like both parts but are good in either is surprisingly low. It's not without reason that the game is rather niché. Any other game i know, which tries to go two ways has one to really be an rather low priority minigame. (See: duty officers and admirality system in STO, agent system in SWL. )

Now consider that ED is kind of a AAA game while at the same game being a niché game. It's an unusual combination. And now you turn everything around by having a completely new playstyle at hand, which also replaces some of the previous way of playing the game. I just can't see how this could turn out positively for the game.

That's the point I'm trying to get across. It doesn't replace existing ways of playing the game for those who want to continue to access current gameplay.
It does reduce a lot of the grind in the envisioned end game stage for those who choose to apply for Admiral, but that was part of the purpose. At that stage you've more than paid your dues in grinding, so a lot of the grind is replaced by strategy, i.e. making choices on how to leverage finite resources. You can't be doing all your own gathering while being commander of a Naval Fleet at the same time.

Essentially, ED remains a game where you fly around an open explorable galaxy and do what you want. The difference is that later on, when you've amassed a great amount of wealth and assets, achieved Triple Elite, and top Rank in at least one Galactic Superpower, and done practically everything there is to do in the game, you can then delve deeper into the game's existing systems with a dynamic and challenging mode of play, rather than leave and move to another game. As a bonus, it also provides new play opportunities to other players who have the choice to join a Naval fleet, or do Freelance work for them.

I do recognise though that it would be a challenge to get the implementation right.
 
How would the Fleet Controller CMDR be balanced against a new(ish) player in a Type 9 with regard to trade?

Depends what you think may need balancing. The newer player with a Type 9 is still capable of doing the same Trade runs and making the same type of profits, and impacting the BGS in the same degree they always have.

It's a different game in terms of shifting from a "the player does everything for themself in one ship / SRV" game to a "the player is the Fleet Controller of an AI fleet that does as instructed" game - effectively massively multiplying the effects that a Fleet Controller can make with little to no actual gameplay.

Fair description - mostly. At the same time though, any number of changes can cause some people to view an existing game as a different game. Some people think the FSS made ED a different game, and perhaps for them it actually did. Some people freak out about any form of automation, be it Auto Docking or Supercruise Assist, and claim that ED is not (or should not be) that type of game. With my suggestion though, as with the automation currently in the game, the existing gameplay and systems remain, so the game remains essentially the same for those who don't want the new gameplay.

As for there being little to no gameplay, I don't think that's correct. Your gameplay just becomes more strategic. You choose what types and numbers of ships you want your fleet to be made up of, and manage their configurations. You decide how much protection you think they need. You choose what skill level of pilots to hire. You choose what areas to operate in, which factions to oppose, and you allocate assets depending on how you choose to split your focus, and move different squadrons of your fleet around the galaxy. You direct strategic battles, and make many other decisions besides, while constantly keeping expenses in mind. All the while, you can still be flying around doing what any other commander does everyday. If that's not a lot of actual gameplay, then an RTS is not a game.
 
TL;DR (EDIT: Reorganised)
Progressively shift ED into a First-person real-time strategy game, allowing Commanders to play the BGS and possibly PowerPlay to forge their own persistent and warring mini-empires for greater personal benefit, fame, and glory.

The idea is a bit of a thought in progress.

Context
This idea came about to address two major player gripes in the game.

1. Grind (unnecessary detail in spoiler)
A lot of players complain about grind in ED. Having to repeat the same sequence of actions hundreds or thousands of times to progress is grind, as far as I judge things. YMMV.
If you don't really want to progress in a certain way, or in a certain amount of time, then you may avoid some of that. When there is a mundane aspect to the actions required, that compounds the grind. For example, shooting rocks on a planet surface in an SRV.

Having said that, not all grind is necessarily bad. Grinding in the early game can be fairly seen as a way to earn your stripes, and is not so bad, as it introduces players to all the different activity types, and is a good way to drill the basics into newer players. What's bad is when you grind to a point, so that you can then grind to another point, and then another. This chain of grind is what can grind the fun of progression in this game to a halt.

2. Lack of End Game (unnecessary detail in spoiler)
Once you've amassed billions, and bought and upgraded every ship you wanted to, you've probably tried most if not all available activities in the game, and there's really no further progression for you in terms of achievements and acquisitions in the game. At this point, many players take an extended hiatus from the game, mostly hopping back into the pilot's seat to check out any recently added changes, and then likely taking another leave period.

The coming fleet carriers will be another milestone for the higher tiers of players, but unless the currently unknown details show otherwise when revealed, there won't be any really new activities or goals to achieve with the use of those fleet carriers.

Vision
Once a player has earned their stripes in the early game grind and reached some predefined set of achievements, they are proffered a rank (such as Admiral, or something more fitting) that allows them to commission an AI Naval fleet, and a range of Support Vessels for remote operations. The Admiral must register a faction to begin, then hire AI Pilots of varying types and skill to operate the ships in their Naval Fleet.

Navy Ship Types
  • Mining Rig
  • Trade Vessel
  • Mission Runner (Courier, Cargo Delivery, and Passenger Transport missions only)
  • Combat Ship
Navy Assets
  • Fleet Carriers (multiple)
  • Support Vessels (various types)
  • Capital Ships
  • Main Naval Base
Support Vessels
  • Serve as remote collection points for mined materials and accrued credits (otherwise ships offload at the Main Naval Base)
  • Outfit and defend fleets in their vicinity
  • Each Support Vessel adds to the initial fleet capacity limit
  • There is a limit on the allowable number of Support Vessels in the Navy
Actions
  • Instruct AI Mining rigs where to mine, what to mine for, and which mining tools to use
  • Instruct AI Trade Vessels which commodities to purchase, and define their trade routes
  • Instruct AI Mission Runners which Stations and Factions to accept missions from, what mission types to accept, and set reward and distance parameters
  • Instruct AI Combat Ships to protect any of your Navy's ships or assets, or to enter conflict zones for epic battles
  • Direct battles by giving instructions to your ships in real-time through a new interface, and even join in yourself
  • Create Assassination and Espionage missions to target the assets of your rival Admirals
Gameplay
  • Protect your assets and fleets
  • Manage your revenue and expenses
  • Strategise to spread your influence and dominance in your nook of the galaxy
  • Make war or use diplomacy when clashing with rival Admirals or PowerPlay figures
  • Pledge your Navy to a Power to augment your fleet and get access to Power specials - for a price
  • Reap special rewards and bonuses as you hit or maintain tiered milestones of influence
  • Commanders can sign up to join your Navy
  • Commanders can roam about as Freelancers on limited contracts for specific missions and conflicts, working all sides
With the introduction of fleet carriers and support vessels, most of the major pieces for this idea are already in the game. The BGS would have to be improved some more to cater for the new dynamic, and interfaces would have to be designed for the Admirals to control their fleets and other assets, create custom missions, monitor progress, and to allow them to direct battles, but I don't believe it's as drastic as it may sound.

Once a player has earned their stripes in the early game grind and reached some predefined set of achievements, they are proffered a rank (such as Admiral, or something more fitting) that allows them to commission an AI Naval fleet, and a range of auxiliary facilities for remote operations. The player must register a faction to begin.

The remote auxiliaries serve as collection points for commodities, materials, technologies, credits, and exploration data acquired by AI pilots as well as human players. Depending on the type of auxiliary, it may also serve to augment certain activities, such as a Mining facility with appropriate outfitting and defensive capabilities. This is what I imagine the new Support Vessels will be used for to some degree, though the details are still pending at the time of writing this. In this envisioned implementation, such vessels/facilities won't be permanently tethered to a fleet carrier, in that they can be left on location if the fleet carrier jumps elsewhere.

The AI Naval fleet can be configured according to the player's requirements, to perform functions such as mining, missions (specifically courier, cargo, and passenger transport missions only), player-defined trade runs, and player assigned combat/defense roles. Bounty hunting, pirating, smuggling, exploration, search and rescue, and all mission types other than courier, cargo and passenger transport should remain the sole province of direct human player intervention.

To picture how this would work, think back to a classic RTS like Starcraft, where SCVs collect minerals and vespene gas, but in this case it's materials and credits. Your AI mission runners and trade vessels are like the SCVs, so the first thing you're going to want to do is save up to purchase a small initial fleet of these as your "gold" miners. These will also serve the purpose of increasing your mini-empire's reputation or influence with the factions of your choice, according to your strategy, as well as affecting the commodity market. So you send the trade vessels off on predefined trade runs for specified commodities, and the mission runners will accept any of the three specified mission types at the stations of your choice, with any additional parameters you're able to set. Those ships will continue on that way until told to stop, or until there are no more applicable missions, or they're destroyed.

Next you could purchase a mining Support Vessel, and a fleet of capable mining ships. Unless of course your base station (provided that feature is introduced) is close enough to the mining site to collect materials, in which case you could forego the mining Support Vessel at first. Once you've directed your miners to work on a particular site, they go back and forth also like the SCVs until they're told to stop, or until there's nothing left to mine, or someone destroys them. Like NPC Fighter Pilots, all AI pilots will have ranks, which will increase with experience, and it will be specific to their activity. So a mining ship AI pilot will get better at mining over time. This will translate to better being able to identify specific deposits, better success with detonations, and faster collection.

Somewhere in between these, you'll be wanting fighters to defend your credit and material miners. So you'll purchase these when you're able, keeping in mind that each AI pilot you hire has an ongoing cost which increases with rank, so your revenue must be greater than your expenses in order to keep them employed.

Eventually, you'll be able to amass a significant combat fleet, and use it dispersed across your assets for defense, or gather it in one spot for an epic battle. You will be able to allow the AI to fight unguided, or direct them through an interface built for this feature, and even directly take part in the battles yourself.

Starcraft also had a unit limiter which varied for each race. For Protoss it was PSI through Pylons, for Terran it was Supply via Depots, and for Zerg it was Control via Overlords. This should also be a factor for control and balance. For example, each auxiliary Support Vessel you place should give you an additional X capacity for supportable units in your navy, and there should be a limit on how many Support Vessels you can have.

Admirals can employ their faction and squadron members in their navy, and delegate certain organisational tasks to them. They should also be able to create and customise missions in systems they have influence in, particularly things like assassination, bounty hunting, and new mission types for disrupting mining and trade operations of other Admirals, with set limits on rewards of course, which are only given after the mission is completed. This is for targeted strategies and espionage.

I also think that Capital ships should become available to a player who has reached this rank.

So effectively, the Admiral employs a strategy to gain influence for their faction, and spread it to the areas of their choice, which could bring them up against other Admirals, which could trigger a war, unless players take a diplomatic initiative. How this could work with PowerPlay is either that the Admiral is in direct competition with the existing Powers, or else they become a significant vassal for a Power, such that the player's influence is added to the Power's influence, which could have its own benefits (resources, additional ships, etc). I'm not too sure on that front, as I'm not that knowledgeable in PowerPlay.

Admirals can of course still pilot their own ships and play as they always have. This is more of an optional end game dynamic, but it also provides other commanders with new play opportunities, to join in the wars as members of a player empire, or to work freelance on missions for any sides in a conflict. There could also be AI or Frontier controlled Admirals thrown into the mix.

With the introduction of fleet carriers, most of the major pieces for this idea are already in the game. The BGS would have to be improved some more to cater for the new dynamic, and interfaces would have to be designed for the Admirals to control their fleets and other assets, create custom missions, monitor progress, and to allow them to direct battles, but I don't believe it's as drastic as it may sound.
How about don't do that at all. I hate rts games. I would never have had anything to do with elite if it was one. This is my favorite game. If you want rts go play an rts. W.t.f.
 
How about don't do that at all. I hate rts games. I would never have had anything to do with elite if it was one. This is my favorite game. If you want rts go play an rts. W.t.f.

ED is already an RTS game. It just currently has a very sub-par way of engaging with the strategic elements.

If what you mean to say is that you don't want to play ED as the commander of an AI Naval fleet that you issue instructions to, then the solution is simple: Don't play as an Admiral.
 
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