For those who Deliberately Did Not Sign the Open Letter/Petition - Why Not?

I haven't been online the last two weeks. Even if I had been I don't see what an open letter would do that the forums already don't: Allow people with egos to complain and get too excited when some others agree.

Now, you want a grievance? FD: PUT RESOURCES ON A SINGLE LIST IN FSS SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO CONSTANT WAIT TO SEE WHAT RARE MATS A PLANET HAS OH GOD THE LIST RESET TO PAGE 1 AGAIN SHOW ME PAGE 3 FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST.

Also, caps lock is now and always has been cruise control for cool.

Edit: This isn't actually an edit, I'm adding it into the original post.
 
What's your point? New snowflake generation, where I can't call it as I see it? The product that been belaboured with bad testing, and design, bad quality from day 1. Am I supposed to forgive all that because I might offend you?

If you ever actually make it to a company director level, you'll find out very quick that if you deliver garbage on a constant basis you'll be called out. You cannot if any way deny the poor performance of the Frontier. They have time and time again, delivered bad design, testing and quality delivery. That they are a game company bears no truck with me. I'm 35+ years a developer, and I care little about offending you or anyone else when I say, in my opinion, they are the worst game design houses I have ever witnessed. I have never, in all my years seen a combination of incompetence as I see in Frontier.

The graphics and sounds departments are exemplary, the rest are held up by them.

That my opinion, take it, leave it, ignore it, I care not a whit.

I had no idea you were that upset by all this, I hope you feel better soon.
 
Because it won't change the past, will have no impact on the present, and is less likely to influence the future than than you can demonstrate truth exists without evidence.
 
The title thread name
"For those who did deliberately not sign the open letter/petition-why not?"

My comment and my issue is totally relevant to the thread. Frontier have said previously that combat logging is cheating yet they do nothing, beluga guy gets banned for being super commander at Jameson, players get money removed for exploiting a money method, yet frontier do nothing about people force quiting because they are on the losing side of things or just to be a pain.

They don't do nothing.

A banned clogger posted his ban e-mail on reddit, and the hackers have been whacked with multiple account perma bans sometimes costing them hundres of euro's. You just won't read it here because of the no naming and shaming policy.
 
Quite simply put.....THEY DON'T SPEAK FOR ME!...THEY NEVER WILL!

I blaze my own trail in the game, whatever Frontier do with the game, frustrating though it can be at times, it's their call.
If I don't like something I'll let them know, if they p.ss me off too much, I'll walk away & do something else.

These days there's too many self appointed arxholes claiming to speak for everyone, when really they have their own underhanded agenda's. Especially if you live in the UK, it's not the best timing to do crap like this.
 
Why deliberately did not signed?

<opens EULA>
<reads>
Game is provided "as is"
<closes EULA>

Long version:
Devs make game as they see fit. Devs introduce mechanics they want and as they envisioned it. We, the players, may or may not agree with it. Sure, we paid the money for the game but that doesn't entitle us to demand that game be as we want it.

We can praise design, we can despise it. We can call for changes but final word is within Devs. The only real and meaningfull action we can take is - to boycott the game, leave it and review bomb to show our displeasure.

I'm not negating open letter - this is quite powerful sign for Devs that things arent going well and according to plan. Or maybe things ARE going according to plan and that whole backlash is within calculated threshold?

Anyway, in general I do not sign such letters because novadays people are very easily persuaded to act. For me it's suffice that major YT content makers stood up and voiced their concerns. My voice is of no value for Devs, I suspect that Devs (not only Frontier, in general) treat vocal minority as... vocal minority. What really counts is voice of those who have some influence - gaming journalists, independent YT advocates and critics.

It may sound a bit sour but I'm aware how it looks from the other side - maybe not a dev team but company that provides products to the customers, especially when product isn't well received. I know how company copes with displeasure.
 
The petition was not reflective of my views. I like FD and I feel that although the communications team seem to have gone downhill a bit over the past year, the game is still excellent. Bugs are bugs....so what....they get fixed...
I’ve played the game for years and I’m triple elite (so I’ve put the hours in), I care about the game. The petition was like watching a drunk howling about the kebab shop being shut.
 
I have ummed and aahed about whether to respond to this post and have finally given in.

When writing something in the public domain like that, you have to consider what you want to achieve and whether the chosen method will further your aims.
My personal view, as someone who writes extensively as a content creator within the Elite community (and have done for the last 4 years) as well as managing a busy player group as well as acting as a bridge and friend to many other large player groups

It should be considered that posts of this nature have a destructive effect. They have the capability to damage staff morale at Frontier, actively reduce communication by making the team there defensive, paint the product and game (and this community) in a bad light, actively prevent new players from buying the game and as a result, harm the ongoing development for everyone else.

In broad terms, our response as "Hutton" has been to offer support to Frontier. How can we help? What detail do you need to help slay the bugs, what can we communicate to our community in terms of support to enable them to either avoid the bugs, or be aware of what's going on to fix them and most of all, ensure that those people giving up their free time to enjoy this particular game have fun, enjoy the social aspects and overall have a positive experience.

Yes, bugs are frustrating, no, they're not as life destroying/disastrous as I believe is often painted by the community.
I've been very vocal since the Galnet news feed petered out (*No pun intended on CMDR Wotherspoon's name) - mainly because our weekly news show and his twice weekly podcasts haven't had a feed of info we can bounce off and create content around. Yes, I wish there was more, that the Thargoid menace disappearing was supported "in fiction" with news and information to keep interest going, the same with the Interstellar Initiatives and Community Goals. That's a wish for things to be different though and not something that requires input on an "open letter". I wish we had more SRV types, I wish we had more puzzles like the "forgotten" generation ships, the thargoid things to be discovered, the Guardians. I also wish I knew what was coming out next year - but Frontier don't owe me that, and I know that when it's ready to be talked about, they'll talk about it.

I will also admit to a natural skepticism regarding the OP of the video put on here. The individual involved is a prolific streamer and has cultivated a style that relishes problems as something to talk about, garner subscribers and likes and ultimately, monetise the playing of Frontier's IP in the public domain (legitimately, streamers are a positively encouraged output). My advice would be to be careful not to saw off the branch that you're sitting on!

My skepticism has been broadly supported by the appearance of a subsequent video that actively demonstrates and wallows in the ability to read through game files/data being used for the game for nuggets of information that shouldn't be revealed, or are misleading. Mr Benedetti's cautious response was measured and sensible, and if I had been in his shoes, I would have taken a far harsher line with videos like that but he's treading a fine line and doing a good job.

To round this off - remember that the people at the other end of these messages are just that - people - they care about the product, they're fun and friendly, there are some excellent talents and skills in that company and they work immensely hard to ensure we all have fun. This game is huge, it's complex and in seeking to not only build and improve on it AND service their commercial aims to continue funding it long into the future for all our benefit, occasionally they drop a clanger.

I can't and won't support open letters like this, but what I can say is "Frontier - how can we help?"

#forthemug
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Personally, I've been disappointed by the discussions that have followed. A good 90% have been off-topic sniping at each other, over nitpicky issues that don't actually matter. Thankfully, amongst the feedback has been some useful information for FDev to use.

Have a great day everyone o7

P.S. I've only answered because I correctly interpret the "/" means "or"?

Is it nitpicky to point out how some of the letter contributors have tried to manipulate not only the audience but also to exploit some of their fellow contributors popularity to add legitimacy to a plan possibly including coercive actions against FDEV?
 
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People who have experience developing a space sim: FDEV.
People who don't: The petition authors.
The whole design by committee part of the petition was quite awful.
I don't disagree with this, but my pedantry forces me to point out that FD popped the lid on that particular can of worms themselves in 2012 when they invited 600+ people to drop coins in the bucket in exchange for being part of such a committee. The result was something of a subjective mixed bag -- one major victory, some useful and still relevant feedback and seven years of entitled confusion by my estimation -- but it did set a bit of a precedent when it comes to "community" expectations.

This game began life as a partial design-by-committee, albeit later downgraded to discussion-by-committee, and there has been a continuous albeit diminishing element of 360° feedback ever since. While I'm not on board with this particular open letter / video for reasons already vaguely outlined, the notion that "the community" can have the ears of the developers if only it bands together is baked into ED's DNA so I can understand why it occasionally gets out of hand.
 
I wouldn't say I didn't sign deliberately, but the world is full of petitions and I only sign ones I consider important. This one is about a computer game which I've enjoyed playing for some time and anticipate still playing for a while longer. A petition about it doesn't seem important.
 
While the points made in the petition seemed reasonable and the intent behind it (we love this game, feel like you're doing some things wrong and really want to help the game be better) is good - ultimately I don't work in the games industry, don't understand the true complexity of the game code, am not truly aware of the compromises Frontier are forced to make nor of their short and long term plans for the game and therefore am just not qualified to tell (or even advise) Frontier how to do their job. I truly believe Frontier love and are proud of this game so basically I have to assume they know what they're doing better than I do (however questionable it might seem from the outside looking in). So no, I didn't sign it because ultimately I don't really approve of it. By all means complain (politely) on the forum about stuff you don't like (Frontier absolutely need constant feedback about how they're doing, both good and bad) but a petition? Eurgh ... no.
 
I did not sign the petition/open letter - deliberately.

For those people, like myself, who deliberately did not sign the recent petition to Frontier, I think there needs to be a forum for their reasons to be aired. Because those voices need to be heard also and are silenced by the louder voices.

Because one of the points I strongly did not agree with.

Please give your reasons if you deliberately did not sign. Or even if you did sign but some of the points you disagreed with.

Should have posted this, just assuming everyone knew about it :-( -> https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/video-open-letter-from-community-to-elite-dangerous.524656/

Signing Off

CMDR Gavin786
  • Citizens do petitions to make their demands known to their country's leaders.
  • Shareholders demand things from the company they hold shares of.
  • Customers of an ongoing project who are constantly paying submit suggestions and can demand to get exactly what they are paying for, which should be specified somewhere.

  • Customers of an ongoing project who are not paying a regular fee, should be glad the product they play is still being worked on. They can submit suggestions, they can criticize whatever is added and point out shortcomings. They are not entitled to demand anything.
We are no citizens of the state of Frontier, I at least am no shareholder of Frontier Developments and I am not paying an ongoing fee.
I paid once for the game and one DLC and say "Thanks!" for all the free stuff, while I submit suggestions and voice some criticism here and there.

Second thing:
Only Frontier knows the code, the processes within the company and how exactly the game is build. The idea of coming up with that silly list of suggestions how to make QA and development go smoother actually made me laugh.
Those people are doing this for a living. While we play the game in our free time, the game is in focus during their working hours, and from a perspective none of us players can have.
Even if there are bugs and a multitude of theories why they are in the game and how it all happened, Frontier sits behind the scenes and knows what went wrong. And they know what's better for the development of the game than you. Yes, all of you (Frontier devs excluded.) Including me of course.
A game is a product we use. The developer knows all about it. If a public test server would be more helpful than it would eat resources, for example, we would already have one!

Conclusion: A petition is absolutely not the right way of how to address game devs. And even if it was, the points and suggestions in that petition assume that the devs are stupid and didn't think of all the things suggested...

I don't like the bugs, neither does Frontier. Happened anyway. Will be fixed.
No, I have no control about the development of the game. Yes, I am okay with that. I will keep on voicing criticism and suggestions.
I am not in any way entitled to anything else!
 
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sollisb

Banned
Those people are doing this for a living. While we play the game in our free time, the game is in focus during their working hours, and from a perspective none of us players can have.

Not very good at it then are they?


Even if there are bugs and a multitude of theories why they are in the game and how it all happened, Frontier sits behind the scenes and knows what went wrong. And they know what's better for the development of the game than you. Yes, all of you (Frontier devs excluded.) Including me of course.

Why aren't they fixing them so?
Why do we still have the same bugs we had last year?
Why do they continually introduce new bugs?



A game is a product we use. The developer knows all about it. If a public test server would be more helpful than it would eat resources, for example, we would already have one!

So what you're saying here is that Fdev don't test and they don't need anyone else to test. Are you sure you're not a FDev employee? That sounds exactly like frontier.


Conclusion: A petition is absolutely not the right way of how to address game devs. And even if it was, the points and suggestions in that petition assume that the devs are stupid and didn't think of all the things suggested...


Well I hate to throw a reality check on you but here goes. Either you are right, or you are wrong.

Either they know and are willfully ignoring, which would equate to incompetence... or
They don't know. Which would as you say, make them stupid.


I don't like the bugs, neither does Frontier. Happened anyway. Will be fixed.
No, I have no control about the development of the game. Yes, I am okay with that. I will keep on voicing criticism and suggestions.
I am not in any way entitled to anything else!

How do you know they will be fixed? I know of bugs still here after years.

So please, don't come laying down your theories and claiming them as facts.
 
I think all of my point have been covered;

1. I didn't know there was a petition. Not that it matters.
2. It's a game. I love it, but it's just a game. I've had over 1000 hours of fun, so if it died today I'd be upset, but life would go on (and I might get something else done!)
3. There are shareholders; this usually means communications are somewhat different than private companies. It's a little less "share".
4. The EULA has been mentioned here, but have a read: they outrightly say they do not guarantee to fix the game should it be broken. That's... well, a necessary clause I guess. Basically, they don't owe us anything - but I'm damned sure they're trying.
5. They care. We care. They've messed up a fair bit. I think they know it. Does that make it okay? No, but we aren't very understanding either.
6. Less than 3000 people have signed the petition. What is that? Less than 1% of purchased games? So... if that were representative, then they're right to ignore it.
7. This forum is STILL not representative of player base. It IS vocal, but it's still not the day to day'ers. Most of those never look here (I know at least a dozen players and none view here, Reddit or watch any content; they just play - and seem to enjoy it).

So I guess, it's all a bit rubbish, but life goes on. I hope ED does too.
 
I enjoy the game, bugs and all. There's enough different activities that when the thing I want to do is broken by bugs, I just do something else that isn't broken until there's a fix.

Despite the "OMG!! Game-breaking!!!!" bugs that have appeared with every update - and with many bug-fix patches - I've continued to play Elite Dangerous at least once-a-week of most weeks since the start of Beta. In that time FD have continued to fix every "OMG!! Game-breaking!!!!" bug that has "ruined" the game for other players, and I've carried on enjoying playing. I've spent far-far more time playing Elite Dangerous than any other game I've ever played, and I don't see anything changing that in the near future.

I've no interest in signing any petitions that are there to pile pressure on the Devs through social-media type outcry. I'd rather just enjoy playing the game, and I have been doing most days since the update.

I don't even know who most of these "influencers" are TBH, I don't bother watching streams, as I'd rather play a game than waste time watching someone else play or even worse watch some tell me how I should play. I watched a few tutorials and streams when I first started playing, especially the FA-Off ones, but these days I only watch the occasional FDev or charity stream.

I know from everything that I've seen that FDev still love the game and will continue to support, fix, update, break and fix again my favourite game for years to come. I also know that they'll constantly be putting a lot of effort into their other games, especially whichever one is the new hot-thing.

If any of the above is slightly off-topic, I apologise, I didn't read the whole of the original petition. :)
 
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