ANNOUNCEMENT January Update - Beta Announcement

[Thatchinho]

Hi, @Stephen Benedetti

Could I ask for a quick bit of clarification on the FSS scan time proposal?

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FSS: Long delay when scanning planets with geological sites

• As it currently stands, in order for the geological/biological sites to be placed on the surface, the entire stellar body must be fully generated (we then know the topography and can place sites where they will be accessible). This can take tens of seconds.
• As part of the January Update, we aim to address this with an alternative process. We have run tests on thousands of in-game planetary bodies and by using this data, we're able to extrapolate the likelihood of geological/biologic sites being present on similar stellar bodies. We then use this data and indicate if the planet is ‘Unlikely’, ‘Likely’, or ‘Very Likely’ to have a geological/biological sites.
• It is not 100% guaranteed that there will be a geological/biological site on the planetary body, but does give commanders a much faster indication of probability. This will enable commanders to quickly ascertain if the planet's worth a visit.
• As this is an alternative way to display information, we would love to hear your feedback on it to determine whether or not it is better than the current process.
• Please note: this will not affect Thargoid or Guardian sites, which will show up instantaneously.

Firstly, in my experience it is not an issue with biological sites per se. The issue only occurs for bodies with volcanism, not with other bodies.

For bodies without volcanism the scan resolves quickly, regardless of whether there are actually any POIs or not and what type they are..

For bodies with volcanism the scan always takes a long time, regardless of whether there are actually any POIs or not and what type they are.

Are you able to clarify what the cause of that is? Is it just a case of the procedural generation of bodies with active geology/volcanism being more involved than for inactive bodies?


Secondly, with regard to the likelihoods stated (‘Unlikely’, ‘Likely’, or ‘Very Likely’) is the intent to have those as the only 3 result types or will there also be a 'definitely none' type result?

I'm using geo sites below to illustrate as the situation's much more clear cut than for other types of sites, but it's the other types of sites I'm primarily interested in.

For geo sites experience suggests their presence can be determined straight away from the body info as follows:

A. If body has No Volcanism, then probability of having geo sites = 0%​

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B. If body has Volcanism, then probability of having geo sites >99.9%​

So for geo sites just going of Volcanism, there's only really two cases, 'definitely not' and 'extremely likely'.

It'd be great to get some clarification on how that maps over into the new process.

Don't get me wrong here, I do kind of like the idea of having a bit more unsurity, and more of a sense of discovery from actually going to a body, but I'm a bit concerned about how it will be in practice if the probability labels applied are misleading, for example if 'unlikely' is applied to all the bodies which definitely don't have volcanism.

On the other hand, if in the scenario above A will continue to report a null result for geo sites and the probabilities only apply to B and you've been able to get those ones which have volcanism but no sites to map to the 'unlikely' category then that's great!

 

[Rubbernuke]

For some reason I don't understand biological POIs are not a problem, they resolve immediately. There is no clear Goldilocks Zone for vulcanism afaik, although there might be general rules that could be applied (which would be effectively the same as the proposal in the OP).

I assume with volcanism you would have areas where tidal forces were high (similar to close in moons like Io) in play, or use subduction zones (that I remember the forge or surface generation takes into account).

 

[Dutchman141]

People doing this are the ones who love the FSS because it does everything for them. Of course I find it ironic when veteran players who got along just fine with the old ADS (which gave no details about planets) are now threatening to quit over this very tiny change (IMPROVEMENT) to the FSS. I'm pretty sure most of these "I'm going to quit!" people are just throwing a tantrum to try to blackmail Frontier into listening to them over everyone else. So I'll give you points for actually quitting when Frontier removed the ADS

Uhm yeah, there are those who try to blackmail Fdev that way but you can't measure everyone by the same standards imho.
I've said it too that when Fdev implements this new mechanic I'll quit playing ED, and I will.
Not to try and convince Fdev to do it differently but because I'll lose my interest in doing the thing I liked most in ED, exploring.
Comparing it to the old ADS mechanic isn't realy fair imho, we didn't have so many POIs in game to discover either.
True the old system was horrid and Fdev improved it significantly with the new fss imho but when they go back to mechanics that closely resemble the old ADS again then yeah I'm done.

Personally I don't see flying on a hunch is an improvement over what we have now at all.
Scanning takes way to long right now, having to fly to planets on an estimated likelyhood wether there is actually something to find or not will take even longer, much longer.
Wasn't the fss introduced to make exploring less time consuming?

My statement of quiting ED isn't meant as a threat at all, just a notification of choice.
The last year I have been playing other games a lot more then ED, I didn't do that as a threat towards Fdev but just because I'm losing the fun in this game.

 

[Oldviboy]

I have left the forum to find it meaningless, walking around the issue tracker,you realize that there are people who do not know how many things work, and attribute it to a bug , resulting in "corrections" of errors, that in many cases neither exist.

Fdev, if you read this, I just go in to say that none of the updates affect me because I don't have one of those problems. You are planning to change mechanics (once again), (geo. And bio. POI´S, FSS ...) towards something that will be much more tedious and will take longer, which is ridiculous ... it will benefit players who they don't have much to do apart from playing a videogame, but it will really be a step backwards for those of us who don't have much time or we don't want to dedicate so many hours to it, it's crazy to count hours without doing anything other than flying straight ahead, try to shorten the times in SC by raising the speed somewhat for example.

Ignore the community in part and pay more attention to those "supposed" problems, make your own game thinking of each and every type of player, many of the suggestions are made for your own benefit, please FDEV, attend that before part of this "community" break your own game or turn it into a sink of hours in which you really do absolutely nothing.
It's just my opinion. Thanks and greetings to all.

 

[Thatchinho]

For some reason I don't understand biological POIs are not a problem, they resolve immediately. There is no clear Goldilocks Zone for vulcanism afaik, although there might be general rules that could be applied (which would be effectively the same as the proposal in the OP).

Bio POIs are a problem and take a long time to resolve if they are on bodies with Volcanism.

It's not been clear whether that was due to the Bio POIs themselves or them getting caught in the bottleneck of waiting for the Geo POIs.

However, what was said in the first post makes it sound like it's the same issue for Bio POIs and Geo POIs on bodies with volcanism rather than the Geo ones holding up the results for the Bio ones:

• As it currently stands, in order for the geological/biological sites to be placed on the surface, the entire stellar body must be fully generated (we then know the topography and can place sites where they will be accessible). This can take tens of seconds.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Frankly Duck, your statement here is pure hogwash. Simply because someone has a negative opinion on FD's proposal for the FSS does not mean they are throwing a tantrum or threatening blackmail. Players are allowed to have opinions which differ from yours.

I like the current FSS but I feel it could use some improvement. Adding more random probability to the mechanic is NOT an improvement. The whole point of the FSS was to provide explorers with information to make decisions from while adding some gameplay to the process (more than simply pressing one button). The old ADS allowed faster decision making, but while the FSS takes more time to use it also provides explorers with more info to work from. FD's change would weaken the usefulness of the FSS greatly, adding more uncertainty to a long process for no gain at all, as we can currently tell if a planet has geo sites instantly because a long spinning wheel is the telltale with the current FSS.

I am not a fan of removing useful tools from the explorers toolbox. Using the FSS is already cumbersome enough, we don't need to add random dice rolls to it as well.

I would like a mixture. Some definite NOS some maybes and some definite yes's.

Then leave it up to the player to decide if they want to go for the maybes.

 

[Riverside]

I assume with volcanism you would have areas where tidal forces were high (similar to close in moons like Io) in play, or use subduction zones (that I remember the forge or surface generation takes into account).

Yeah exactly. When I used to go looking for fumeroles (pre-3.3) I'd look on the moon nearest the gas giant, that kind of thing.

But the effect of applying that would be the same as in the OP, probability rather than the simple certainty we already have with biological POIs.

I don't understand why however biological POIs work cannot be applied to volcanic ones, but presumably FDev have already considered & discounted this option because it's the one most people have proposed over the past year or so.

 

[Thatchinho]

Uhm yeah, there are those who try to blackmail Fdev that way but you can't measure everyone by the same standards imho.
I've said it too that when Fdev implements this new mechanic I'll quit playing ED, and I will.
Not to try and convince Fdev to do it differently but because I'll lose my interest in doing the thing I liked most in ED, exploring.
Comparing it to the old ADS mechanic isn't realy fair imho, we didn't have so many POIs in game to discover either.
True the old system was horrid and Fdev improved it significantly with the new fss imho but when they go back to mechanics that closely resemble the old ADS again then yeah I'm done.

Personally I don't see flying on a hunch is an improvement over what we have now at all.
Scanning takes way to long right now, having to fly to planets on an estimated likelyhood wether there is actually something to find or not will take even longer, much longer.
Wasn't the fss introduced to make exploring less time consuming?

My statement of quiting ED isn't meant as a threat at all, just a notification of choice.
The last year I have been playing other games a lot more then ED, I didn't do that as a threat towards Fdev but just because I'm losing the fun in this game.

Don't want this to sound like I'm trying to dismiss your points, but wouldn't really want to see another player leave the game either so just throwing these points out for consideration.

- The new probabilities can be ignored if needed for Geo sites, and you can just go off the body info (which you get instantly) to know with 99% certainty whether the body will have Geo sites.

- For Bio POIs... not sure at the moment, won't be until knowing/seeing more about how the probabilities map over into the game.

- All other POI types - the new version should be much better, as the detection of them will no longer be delayed on bodies with volcanism.

In other words we effectively have a combo of:

• unchanged
• maybe worse
• better

And for the Bios, would it really be that bad? With things as they currently stand, how many bodies with Bio signals do you actually visit, and how many sites do you check?

(Again, just want to say that I'm not trying to argue against you with this stuff, rather just hoping that on reflection the new version might not be as bad as it might have seemed at first impression, and that if it does go ahead it wouldn't actually end up meaning someone having to leave the game.)

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yeah exactly. When I used to go looking for fumeroles (pre-3.3) I'd look on the moon nearest the gas giant, that kind of thing.

But the effect of applying that would be the same as in the OP, probability rather than the simple certainty we already have with biological POIs.

I don't understand why however biological POIs work cannot be applied to volcanic ones, but presumably FDev have already considered & discounted this option because it's the one most people have proposed over the past year or so.

So the real problem is: the game can't generate the moons + features fast enough on demand, so its how best to mask it?

 

[Hellhound_Rocko]

well, i get the invincible Thargoid Interceptor stuff every single time a Multicrew member has shot on the Tharg, and i always thought of the sometimes missing warnings for their Disruption Pulses as just another example of the normal behavior of this game in regards to COVAS battle related lines not playing: the longer a playsession continues, the more often the COVAS will refuse to announce combat related stuff (at least on my system - PS4). so without diving into the embarrassingly broken hell that is Multicrew unfortunately - and without longer playsessions on something that preferably ain't a beefy PC - it wouldn't wonder me if you have troubles replicating some of these bugs indeed FDev... .

 

[B1rdy]

[...]

Thank you for the change of wording and more detailed explanation compared to previous announcements like this.

 

[Riverside]

So the real problem is: the game can't generate the moons + features fast enough on demand, so its how best to mask it?

Well that's what FDev have described, yes. But that's not the case for Bio's (a body with only bio POIs will resolve the POI count immediately).

Clearly it isn't as easy as it seems it should be, and honestly I'm not sure I care about Geo POIs being procedurally generated at all any more. I spent 18 months looking for them (it really was too hard before 3.3), now I just want to be able to fly a ship equipped with a DSS in the bubble without stuttering as I fly past already mapped bodies that have geological POIs on them.

So for me, however Bio's work, apply that to Geo's. But the new stuff has been out for a year now & because the bug/issue has been left in the game so long there is a resistance to change which I entirely empathise with so I don't think there is an easy solution. Hence the beta I guess

 

[Retropolitan]

So the real problem is: the game can't generate the moons + features fast enough on demand, so its how best to mask it?

That seems to be the plan. It'll be interesting to see what this does to DSS mapping times in the beta.

 

[Riverside]

Bio POIs are a problem and take a long time to resolve if they are on bodies with Volcanism.

It's not been clear whether that was due to the Bio POIs themselves or them getting caught in the bottleneck of waiting for the Geo POIs.

However, what was said in the first post makes it sound like it's the same issue for Bio POIs and Geo POIs on bodies with volcanism rather than the Geo ones holding up the results for the Bio ones:

I think you might be responding to a different point to the one I made. On a body with only Bio (no geo) they resolve immediately (ime obviously, it's not an easy thing to test, Bio only isn't common).

 

[Thatchinho]

So the real problem is: the game can't generate the moons + features fast enough on demand, so its how best to mask it?

Yep.

It's not a problem elsewhere as generally it goes unnoticed as it's all going on when approaching a planet or in the short space of time after loading the game if already on a planet. (Though effects can be noticed if you've got a rubbish graphics card.)

It's a different story when zooming in on a body in the FSS and wanting an instant return of info that's dependent on the planet gen system fully generating the body.

Though really it's a question of how to best change the overall process to take away the bottleneck, rather than it being about masking the proc gen process per se.

I assume with volcanism you would have areas where tidal forces were high (similar to close in moons like Io) in play, or use subduction zones (that I remember the forge or surface generation takes into account).

Yeah, that's spot on with regard to which bodies have volcanism.

On the subduction zones front, it's speculation, but I do suspect that is part of what the situation is.

For reference, the scan time problem is specifically with bodies with volcanism, it's not as a result of the POI type.

I suspect that the procedural generation for active worlds (i.e. ones with volcansim) is more complex than for inactive worlds (i.e. ones without volcanism), as it has to simulate the effects of the active geology. Until it's done that, and determined subduction zones, areas with weak/thin/cracked crusts, etc. it can't place POIs.

Geo POIs are obviously directly effected by this, but some Bio POIs are also specifically tied to a body having volcanism, and to specific surface features on those bodies, though I can't say how tied in it is to the sub-surface stuff.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Could you copy and reuse the search area mechanic? So, in the FSS you get a small patch of detected anomalies to aim for, and then when you get there the reticule searches and pings about a bit while the game builds up the area?

 

[Thatchinho]

I think you might be responding to a different point to the one I made. On a body with only Bio (no geo) they resolve immediately (ime obviously, it's not an easy thing to test, Bio only isn't common).

Hmm... when you say bio only, are you talking about bodies with with volcanism and bio sites but no geo sites? I've seen the bodies with volcanism, and no geo sites. They're pretty rare. They still take a long time to return the 'None' though from what I recall. If it was a body with volcanism and no geo sites but bio sites, I'm not sure how the bio sites signal could show quickly as surely it would have to still run through the same kind of times as normal to determine the number (zero) of geo poi's?

If you just mean bio sites on bodies without vulcanism, then yeah, they return quickly.

I thought (possibly wrongly) from what you said that you were referring to the latter. Point then being that there's no way to distinguish whether those bio POIs are coming back quicker specifically because they're bio POIs, or whether they're coming back quicker because the body doesn't have volcanism.

It's also always possible that the mechanism to determine presence might vary between bio POI types, but again no real way to tell.

 

[Thatchinho]

That seems to be the plan. It'll be interesting to see what this does to DSS mapping times in the beta.

I wouldn't think it'll make any difference.

Reasons:

• no reports of any issues from people who currently DSS without FSSing
• planet gen system spins up the planet (to a fair point at least) as you're approaching anyway
• the time taken for probing would be sufficient to mask any further running of the planet gen system for most people

 

[Six6VI]

CQC is really good. out of a choice of playing any other arena shooter out there, CQC would be my choice. I do get it, perhaps FD could have spent CQC devtime on something actually in game rather than make a companion app..... but that time is spent now, given it is 80% of the way to being a damn good arcade shooter in its own right i personally think FD should make the final push and add a few bells and whistles = as well as a couple of new maps.

oh and add arx earning to them

Loaded a lobby once, by accident. Might be a bit more interested if there were practice bots, maybe not.

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

"We are also investigating the ability to extend future betas to console players as well, and will announce any developments about this when we have more information. "

Not for this beta sadly but they are looking at it for future updates! Fingers crossed.

This is a polite way of saying no, console doesnt make us enough money so we dont really care about them. Playstation 4 cqc has been broken for too long for me to believe they will ever do anything else to fix console exclusive issues.