Redesign the Engineering Grind

[DiabolusUrsus]

Overview
The Engineering grind is widely considered one of the most soul-sucking chores currently in the game. I believe simply restructuring the grind, without necessarily reducing it, would dramatically improve the player experience while making Engineering in general feel more rewarding.

NOTE: Specific balancing changes exceed the scope of this suggestion.

Proposed Grind

1. Players must discover Engineers and earn invitations to unlock their services.
   • Remove the extra fetch-quests needed to unlock the Engineer's Workshop after receiving their invitation; this grind is relocated later in the process.
   • Consider rearranging the "chain discovery" trees to separate upgrade paths by module type. For example, traders shouldn't need to develop weapon upgrades to gain access to defensive upgrades for armor and shields (e.g., Tod > Selene > Didi). Reassign available upgrades per Engineer if necessary.
2. Players must increase their reputation with the Engineer to access higher-tier upgrades.
   • Engineer workshops provide an assortment of combat, exploration, and transport/trade missions offering reputation and various material rewards needed for research.
   • Players can still boost reputation through a thematic exchange (e.g., bounty vouchers, Universal Cartographics, or commodity trading) at the workshop.
   • Engineers start with all G1 blueprints unlocked. Unlocking G3-G5 blueprints requires fully researching at least 1 blueprint at each tier.
3. Players must research blueprints and experimental effects by supplying materials. (Replaces fetch-questing.)
   • Research is the "rolling for progress" mechanism currently used to upgrade modules.
   • Research does not actually upgrade any modules, and can be completed without the relevant module installed.
   • Material costs for each "roll" are significantly increased.
   • Rolling research to 100% permanently unlocks the upgrade for purchase with credits and unlocks the next upgrade tier.
   • Experimental effects require only a single delivery of materials at slightly increased cost.
   • Blueprints do not repeat across different Engineers; decrease the number of Engineers or blueprints per Engineer as-needed.

Quality of Life Changes

• Any unlocked blueprints and experimental effects can be purchased remotely.
• Upgrades can be pinned/unpinned remotely; pinning simply tracks required materials.
• Paying materials for researched upgrades eliminates the credit cost.
• Players can develop relationships and conduct research with Colonia Engineers remotely at a reduced rate, or locally at an increased rate.

Expected Benefits

• The grind is still sizable and time-consuming, but it at least involves more of the core gameplay loops (combat/exploration/trade) instead of semi-voluntary side activities (SRV prospecting, Signal Source hunting, or data scanning). These side activities are still available, but have better alternates.
• I believe my proposed reputation > research loop is a more plausible and immersive representation of developing a working relationship with each Engineer.
• Players no longer need to tolerate meaningless inconveniences like a limited remote workshop once they unlock upgrades. Inconvenience is not a good balancing factor, and doesn't add anything positive to the game experience. Requiring players to visit Engineers to unlock upgrades still encourages them to venture out and explore, while providing better remote support makes the grind a "one and done" activity.
• Allowing players to substitute materials for credit costs keeps resource farming semi-relevant for those who enjoy it.
• Players can decide whether they would prefer to travel more or grind more when it comes to Engineers stationed in Colonia. I believe a more flexible choice will ultimately encourage more players to make the trip as opposed to ignoring it completely (without forcing the issue).

Possible Shortcomings

• A general balance pass is still needed for blueprints and experimental effects. It's hard to imagine anyone but uninformed players from bothering to unlock upgrades like faster FSD boot sequence, low-emission power plants, or reinforced limpet controllers as they currently are.
• A redistribution of materials across available Synthesis recipes would be needed to keep material farming properly relevant as an aspect of gameplay.
• This does not address the tedium and convolution of finding specific materials without referring to 3rd-party websites.

Closing
Assuming you got this far, thanks for your time and consideration. Do you think my suggestion is viable? Are there problems I'm overlooking? Do you have ideas about how to address specific issues? Please feel free to weigh in with opinions, suggestions and criticisms; just keep in mind that I can only write from my own perspective regarding my own experiences, so if my proposal tramples over gameplay you feel is important I probably just haven't thought of things that way. I'm happy to look for solutions that keep both of us happy.

EDIT:

The intent of allowing upgrade purchases with credits is a) adding player convenience for unlocked upgrades and b) adding a longer-lasting credit sink. Additionally, some players seem concerned with getting players to revisit Engineers for reasons currently unexplained. I suggest:

• Upgrade credit cost scales with distance from the Engineer, up to a cap of 200LY (identical to the cap on Rare Commodity value).
• Upgrade material cost (as the alternative to credits) does not scale with distance.

This would make upgrade purchases a more effective credit sink, and offer an incentive for players to revisit Engineers. Preventing material cost from scaling with distance would help it be more competitive with credit purchases for players who already have the materials on-hand or who enjoy the farming cycle.

 

[Captain Willard]

I have no problem with engineering as it stands now.
Having to upgrade 18 ships with legacy mods and adding the experimental's was a real pain but I'm about to finish all of them.
The places to farm data mats at jamison cobra, farm raw mats at the crystalline spires and the way I farm man mats makes it very simple to engineer everything in sight very easy and have all the mats I need.
I have 8 or 9 blueprints tagged for engineering makes it very simple. Ya just have to fly there for the experimental mods.

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

I have no problem with engineering as it stands now.
Having to upgrade 18 ships with legacy mods and adding the experimental's was a real pain but I'm about to finish all of them.
The places to farm data mats at jamison cobra, farm raw mats at the crystalline spires and the way I farm man mats makes it very simple to engineer everything in sight very easy and have all the mats I need.
I have 8 or 9 blueprints tagged for engineering makes it very simple. Ya just have to fly there for the experimental mods.

It's nice that you're almost done, and I am WELL aware of the methods for farming materials "efficiently."

However, I can't consider logging in and out to spam a handful of static respawning sites good gameplay, and I don't think "not my problem anymore" is really a valid or productive rebuttal. It's fine to feel that way, but is there some reason why you think Engineering shouldn't be improved?

What is the benefit to limiting players to a select few pinned blueprints? What does needing to visit Engineers for experimentals ADD to the game experience? Doesn't that simply reinforce a handful of "meta" choices and discourage build experimentation for most players?

 

[varonica]

However, I can't consider logging in and out to spam a handful of static respawning sites good gameplay,

You are quite correct, that's not good game play, that called bad choice. Any system can be turned into grind if you try hard enough. Me, I took the opportunity of gathering required mats to do a grand tour around most of the known sites in the bubble, saw a lot of things I may never have seen otherwise and had a great time. That you choose to log in and out at one site is what we call a choice.

 

[Meresiga]

[QUOTE = "Капитан Уиллард, должность: 8164164, участник: 62162"]
У меня нет проблем с техникой в нынешнем виде.
[/ QUOTE]

+!(У)

 

[Meresiga]

[/QUOTE]

I have no problem with engineering as it stands now.

+1

 

[Rubbernuke]

I actually liked the first version, mainly as it gave you unique modules to you unlike now where everyone is the same eventually.

In my perfect utopia of engineering I'd:

keep the outcome as v1 (but with v2 remote)

have material traders as now

material traders can exchange in more favourable ratios

you can buy and sell materials

triple the amounts of materials one unit collected gives

rebalance blueprint requirements (so materials are more evenly used rather than have one super rare mat doing everything...CIF for example).

 

[Ian Doncaster]

• Consider rearranging the "chain discovery" trees to separate upgrade paths by module type. For example, traders shouldn't need to develop weapon upgrades to gain access to defensive upgrades for armor and shields (e.g., Tod > Selene > Didi). Reassign available upgrades per Engineer if necessary.

Part of the point of engineers is to encourage people to try at least most bits of the game at least once. I didn't try mining until I needed to unlock Jean, but it turned out to be quite fun for me.

That said, most blueprints are available through more than one route - you can get the shield blueprints from Dweller -> Cheung (no combat required) or from Martuuk -> Brandon (very minimal combat - potentially just a single kill - required), for example.

Even McQuinn only requires you to get 15 bounties - which won't even get you out of Harmless, so it's not as if it's a massive requirement to be a combat pilot.

rebalance blueprint requirements (so materials are more evenly used rather than have one super rare mat doing everything...CIF for example).

CIF isn't in that many blueprints (if you count all the "long range" and "short range" weapon blueprints as a single one) ... it's just that it's in two really popular blueprints.

Manufactured materials are more of a mess with things like Chemical Storage Units clearly just added to make the material trader grid a rectangle.

 

[Rubbernuke]

CIF isn't in that many blueprints (if you count all the "long range" and "short range" weapon blueprints as a single one) ... it's just that it's in two really popular blueprints.

Manufactured materials are more of a mess with things like Chemical Storage Units clearly just added to make the material trader grid a rectangle.

To be fair I did not think that hard when I typed CIF mainly because that one mat caused me SO, MUCH PAIN that it just came out

A quick look on INARA by FD will show how some are barely touched. I'd rather the range of mats is decreased really.

 

[Brrokk]

...
The Engineering grind is widely considered one of the most soul-sucking chores currently in the game.
...

Sorry, but you lost me there. I would never do a soul-sucking chore in a game played for entertainment; that would be sub-rational.

 

[Raino]

Ahm, it is totally easy now a days, it used to be a real hard job but that is a story of the past and I am not even talking about availability, the traders are makin it a joke. Just the Alien parts still require some real action and that is fine to me..

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

I would say that I'm mostly happy with the engineering but I feel the following might improve the system ;-

1) Once the engineer has access, you can run missions for the engineer which will gain you influence with them which could also reward a small amount of mats. (Apparently this is a big ask to use the Missions Board this way)
2) As the engineering modules over balance the game, I would suggest that the degradation of Engineered Modules is much higher than other modules and the only way to maintain them is to return to the Engineer to restore the modules to top performance.
3) Reduce the Effectiveness of the Powerplant and Power Distributor (these are too overpowered).

 

[Misty_Dark]

Overview
The Engineering grind is widely considered one of the most soul-sucking chores currently in the game. I believe simply restructuring the grind, without necessarily reducing it, would dramatically improve the player experience while making Engineering in general feel more rewarding.

NOTE: Specific balancing changes exceed the scope of this suggestion.

Proposed Grind

1. Players must discover Engineers and earn invitations to unlock their services.
   • Remove the extra fetch-quests needed to unlock the Engineer's Workshop after receiving their invitation; this grind is relocated later in the process.
   • Consider rearranging the "chain discovery" trees to separate upgrade paths by module type. For example, traders shouldn't need to develop weapon upgrades to gain access to defensive upgrades for armor and shields (e.g., Tod > Selene > Didi). Reassign available upgrades per Engineer if necessary.
2. Players must increase their reputation with the Engineer to access higher-tier upgrades.
   • Engineer workshops provide an assortment of combat, exploration, and transport/trade missions offering reputation and various material rewards needed for research.
   • Players can still boost reputation through a thematic exchange (e.g., bounty vouchers, Universal Cartographics, or commodity trading) at the workshop.
   • Engineers start with all G1 blueprints unlocked. Unlocking G3-G5 blueprints requires fully researching at least 1 blueprint at each tier.
3. Players must research blueprints and experimental effects by supplying materials. (Replaces fetch-questing.)
   • Research is the "rolling for progress" mechanism currently used to upgrade modules.
   • Research does not actually upgrade any modules, and can be completed without the relevant module installed.
   • Material costs for each "roll" are significantly increased.
   • Rolling research to 100% permanently unlocks the upgrade for purchase with credits and unlocks the next upgrade tier.
   • Experimental effects require only a single delivery of materials at slightly increased cost.
   • Blueprints do not repeat across different Engineers; decrease the number of Engineers or blueprints per Engineer as-needed.

Quality of Life Changes

• Any unlocked blueprints and experimental effects can be purchased remotely.
• Upgrades can be pinned/unpinned remotely; pinning simply tracks required materials.
• Paying materials for researched upgrades eliminates the credit cost.
• Players can develop relationships and conduct research with Colonia Engineers remotely at a reduced rate, or locally at an increased rate.

Expected Benefits

• The grind is still sizable and time-consuming, but it at least involves more of the core gameplay loops (combat/exploration/trade) instead of semi-voluntary side activities (SRV prospecting, Signal Source hunting, or data scanning). These side activities are still available, but have better alternates.
• I believe my proposed reputation > research loop is a more plausible and immersive representation of developing a working relationship with each Engineer.
• Players no longer need to tolerate meaningless inconveniences like a limited remote workshop once they unlock upgrades. Inconvenience is not a good balancing factor, and doesn't add anything positive to the game experience. Requiring players to visit Engineers to unlock upgrades still encourages them to venture out and explore, while providing better remote support makes the grind a "one and done" activity.
• Allowing players to substitute materials for credit costs keeps resource farming semi-relevant for those who enjoy it.
• Players can decide whether they would prefer to travel more or grind more when it comes to Engineers stationed in Colonia. I believe a more flexible choice will ultimately encourage more players to make the trip as opposed to ignoring it completely (without forcing the issue).

Possible Shortcomings

• A general balance pass is still needed for blueprints and experimental effects. It's hard to imagine anyone but uninformed players from bothering to unlock upgrades like faster FSD boot sequence, low-emission power plants, or reinforced limpet controllers as they currently are.
• A redistribution of materials across available Synthesis recipes would be needed to keep material farming properly relevant as an aspect of gameplay.
• This does not address the tedium and convolution of finding specific materials without referring to 3rd-party websites.

Closing
Assuming you got this far, thanks for your time and consideration. Do you think my suggestion is viable? Are there problems I'm overlooking? Do you have ideas about how to address specific issues? Please feel free to weigh in with opinions, suggestions and criticisms; just keep in mind that I can only write from my own perspective regarding my own experiences, so if my proposal tramples over gameplay you feel is important I probably just haven't thought of things that way. I'm happy to look for solutions that keep both of us happy.

I do not not like what you are suggesting....
You are mostly suggesting to move things around for an obvious I want to play in credits later for all my engineering.... basically removing all elements of material gathering...


The invitation/discovery of engineers is one of the better parts of the engineering, what you call fetch-quests in this phase is in most cases there to promote you to do activities...
Take Selene Jean and her "fetch-quest" of mining 600 T of anything, is simply there to have you to try mining over most peoples comfort zones for what they believe are a booring activity, at worst, it is one time activity that you need to do only ONCE, to unlock the engineer. But some of these activities might give you some new insight on new things todo. Fro example, for a pretty long time, Selene Jean was considered one of the worst to unlock, due to the mining requirements, now people line up to go mining to make ALOT of credits.


Your reputation suggestions is mostly how it already works today, with the exception of specific missions....does not really add anything to the process... if anything, your version is even more grindier based on the number of blueprints... and what about blueprints that is available at multiple engineers, would you need to unlock that blueprint at ALL engineers you want to be able to use it from?

And your research thing is the worst of them all... first is adds a MASSIVE grind to unlock the blueprints, but once done, you simply bypasses the entire system by buying the upgrades with credits... totally missing hte whole point why engineering uses material/data instead of credits. I get it,


Then we get to your quality of life thing, where you newer again wants to visit an engineer once you have unlocked the wanted blueprints and experimental effects, as you here want to buy these remotely with CREDITS... If that is the goal, whjy even bother with the unlocking part then?
Your weak excuse for allowing to use materials instead of credits make NO sense at all, because it is very easy to make 200+ million credits per hour by doing mining, so to offset this credit earning, the material have to be VERY lucrative to collect instead of simply gather credits... how much credits should a billion Imperial Cutter (combat focused) costs to G5 engineering? 100 million? 200? million? 500 million? 1 billion? 2 billion? because this must be in relation to the credit potential earnings in the game. and since we now can make solo around 200 million credits/hour, then the price tag needs to fit this earning potential.. which will suck for all people not interesting in mining, as otherwise, gathering material will be useless...


This is does not appear to more than a shameless attempt to make engineering very easy todo once you have unlocked them... so the threshold to unlock is greatly increased which is bad, and then later, you simply substitute it all with credits, which is even worse... as the history have shown that there will always be ways to make lots of credits in this game... regardless of what FDev intentions was.


You could basically replace most of your suggestion with simple buy materials for credits suggestion... as that is what this ini the end boils down to.. you have already hinted that some blueprints makes no sense to unlock, and with this it makes even less sense.... to even try any such things. as per your own suggestion unlocking a blueprint should be very time consuming...

 

[Badman76]

Sorry, double post

 

[Badman76]

Consider rearranging the "chain discovery" trees to separate upgrade paths by module type. For example, traders shouldn't need to develop weapon upgrades to gain access to defensive upgrades for armor and shields (e.g., Tod > Selene > Didi). Reassign available upgrades per Engineer if necessary.

Players can still boost reputation through a thematic exchange (e.g., bounty vouchers, Universal Cartographics, or commodity trading) at the workshop.

I'd be happy with these, having to build a combat ship to gain rep with tod to unlock petra was a pain. Also the meeting requirements for lei cheung is very boring. i keep putting off doing this

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Still sounds like a slog to me.

Just remove engineered AI dropping on you indiscriminately in the scripts. Move them to places where players can CHOOSE to go rather than getting them spawned by RNG or being everywhere in CZs.

You can keep all that crap power creep with your beloved grind in that case because if I have a choice to not do it, it should be mostly fine.

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

I actually liked the first version, mainly as it gave you unique modules to you unlike now where everyone is the same eventually.
Snip

To clarify, do you mean experimentals would be acquired randomly as opposed to purchased? I could accept that, but only if they were all rebalanced to be useful-but-not-game-breaking. Thermal Vent is too good to not have, for example, and Inertial Impact is just obnoxious.

Part of the point of engineers is to encourage people to try at least most bits of the game at least once.

Snip

This can and should be handled entirely through the base game, I think, at least for base game features like exploration/combat/trade. Personally, I had tried everything before really diving into Engineering so I can't say that being dragged back into gameplay I don't enjoy (trading in 50 markets, for example) is particularly fulfilling.

Sorry, but you lost me there. I would never do a soul-sucking chore in a game played for entertainment; that would be sub-rational.

Thank you for choosing to quibble over rhetoric rather than engage with the core concept; I hope your condescension has properly gratified your ego.

Ahm, it is totally easy now a days, it used to be a real hard job but that is a story of the past and I am not even talking about availability, the traders are makin it a joke. Just the Alien parts still require some real action and that is fine to me..

The grind having been even worse before is not a reason why it shouldn't improve further.

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

3) Reduce the Effectiveness of the Powerplant and Power Distributor (these are too overpowered).

Pair that with increasing the impact of pip distribution on performance, and I'm totally on board. For example, I'd expect the +capacity upgrade for the PD to be the natural pairing for Overcharged BPs (do substantially more damage but fire less often) and for the power plant to limit how much burst DPS a ship can stack, but that's just not the case at all.

EDIT: On-board with this change, specifically. I disagree with the "module degradation" idea, because it just seems like menial make-work to me.

 

[Rubbernuke]

To clarify, do you mean experimentals would be acquired randomly as opposed to purchased? I could accept that, but only if they were all rebalanced to be useful-but-not-game-breaking. Thermal Vent is too good to not have, for example, and Inertial Impact is just obnoxious.

Thinking about it more I'd like them separate, as now. Part of me wishes that all engineering is experimentals (i.e. we have lots of small boosts and none of the G1-5 that is OP).

 

[Old Duck]

Part of me wishes that all engineering is experimentals (i.e. we have lots of small boosts and none of the G1-5 that is OP).

I agree with this, though I think it would require a rebalance of vanilla modules. Many A-rated modules are rubbish in comparison to even a modestly engineered C or D rated module. I usually use engineering to compensate for vanilla weaknesses (like the pathetic drop off range of lasers or jump range of certain ships). I've never built one of these "god ships" that certain people create just so they can complain that NPCs are too easy, and I'd love to see these god ships removed from the game altogether.