Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

[Agony_Aunt]

Just getting caught up with gaming news, and it looks like hellion is no more. Seems like CIG really does need $250M + to develop the game most of us want to play.

I would be interested in ED, costs too. I can see it costing billions to make games in the future.

Hellion wanted to do ultra realistic at first, because that it was "us" (ie: the people singing its praises initially) wanted. The devs discovered that what "us" want doesn't sell many copies though.

Now, i'm not saying what CIG are saying they want to develop doesn't appeal to a much wider demographic. In fact, it seems with their love of Rexshilla and the release of their Battlefield/CoD gamemode, they are now targetting the lowest common denomoninator in the gaming market out there, well, except Farmville style mobile games.

But yes, it does seem like CIG really needs 250M+, and extrapolating what they have devleoped to date vs what else they need to do to make the best damn Battlefield clone in space, they are still going to need another metric ton of funding and years more.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Would have, could have, should have. Your crying over spilt milk. 2019 has been the most successful year for CIG, so one would say they are on the right course....

Money in != results out.

It even appears from CIG's history, the more money they get, the less they actually produce.

Hey, remember when CR said he could make the best damn space sim ever for just a few million and a couple of years? LOL... yeah, good times.

 

[LeSabre]

It's actually incredibly funny if you totally ignore the money side of things, since that's their only 'win' year after year.

They have managed exactly 'nothing' else of value in 8 years, all the tech they constantly talk up? Worthless to anyone not making SC. All the videos they put up? worthless fluff padding out time, stalling and marketing. All the dreamscaping? Worthless without a game to act it out in. All the hopes? Worthless to anyone being realistic.

The money total is all that matters because it's all they have.

 

[Tippis]

Would have, could have, should have. Your crying over spilt milk. 2019 has been the most successful year for CIG, so one would say they are on the right course....

One has nothing to do with the other, and we won't know how successful 2019 has been until in a year or so.
Before this 2018 was their most successful year ever, and had been a disaster if they hadn't sold 10% of the company to make up for the shortfall.

 

[AJW]

Would have, could have, should have. Your crying over spilt milk. 2019 has been the most successful year for CIG, so one would say they are on the right course....

I'm not crying over anything. I'm merely pointing out that using CIG's figures as an indication for cost of games development in general is highly questionable. And as for CIG being 'highly successful' this year, I'd say that was only true if you measured 'success' in terms of raising yet more funds through selling stuff they don't have, while failing to meet their own deadlines, as per usual. And racking up debt in the process. That isn't what a successful business is supposed to look like.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

3.8 is the most broken patch we've had for a long time, perhaps if you had tried during 3.7 it might have been a better experience. The patch certainly hasn't helped folks who merely dip their toes in SC infrequently or the new backers...

Yea, I'll wait for 3.9 and hope that one is more stable.

Hopefully we can choose Microtech as a STARTING location since it's supposed to be in the game by 3.9.

Test 1

• Took a Harbinger to Microtech
• Got Interdicted
• Asploded

Test 2

• Took a Freelancer to Microtech
• A random Caterpillar collide with me in Quantum space
• Asploded

Test 3

• Went to Microtech in an Avenger.
• Logged out in bed of Avenger on planet in a nice forest
• Woke up in Avenger orbiting the sun and not enough fuel to go anywhere...

 

[Sanya V. Juutilainen]

Seems like CIG really does need $250M + to develop the game most of us want to play.

I don't understand how people still fall for this. A single dedicated tool will always be better for its purpose as long as the replacement doesn't work exactly as well or better than its original competitor - you won't force CS:GO players into anything that lags like hell and has braindead AI, for example.

And then there's the technology obstacles. Standalone cameras will always be better than mobile phone cameras, no matter what AI you use, simply because the mobile won't fit the camera chip (that correlates with size not because of performance, but because of light area). Now, is it possible that in some twenty or fifty years we'll make a great physics breakthrough and fit full-size camera into a mobile phone? Possibly so, but not today.

Star Citizen would need like dozen of such breakthroughs that are currently not possible to make it - they need to solve RPG, FPS and few more genres in a single game. They need to solve huge instancing problems. They need to solve single player vs MMO and PvE vs PvP. And more and more.

In 8 years with ~300 million USD they couldn't solve these even partially, and what's more, they didn't even start to solve many of these problems yet. Which doesn't exactly fill me with lots of hope that they can reach it eventually.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'm not crying over anything. I'm merely pointing out that using CIG's figures as an indication for cost of games development in general is highly questionable. And as for CIG being 'highly successful' this year, I'd say that was only true if you measured 'success' in terms of raising yet more funds through selling stuff they don't have, while failing to meet their own deadlines, as per usual. And racking up debt in the process. That isn't what a successful business is supposed to look like.

Well, i can imagine some EA execs getting all giddy at the idea of raking in millions without delivering a product.

But EA bad, CIG good... somehow.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

So, let's talk Jpegs.

The Crusader Ares - Inferno.

It's an interesting concept ship, like the ships before it, it's the current BRRRRT! plaform.
Before this one it was the Avenger, and then it was overtaken by the Vanguard and now the biggest BRRRRT! is the Inferno...for now.
With a bespoke fixed gun however i'm seriously wondering about flexibility of gameplay here.
Hopefully it can install stealth components and at least sneak up on some people and ships since if definitely LOOKS like it should be able to have stealth parts ant not merely be a flying tank with a gun.

I think CIG dropped the ball on this one since it would be (if at least not financially...for CIG) more efficient to release the possibility of multiple weapons types depending on the hull.

• Railgun or BRRRRT! gun for the Inferno
• Hard hitting laser or distortion weapon for the ION

I mean, they could have sold 4 ships to some people who wanted multiple options instead of just 2...

I wonder how blind one will be by the muzzle flash since CIG simply LOVES to place the weapon muzzle straight in your field of vision and blind you when using them (Sabre, Gladius comes to mind...)

 

[Viajero]

Money in != results out.

It even appears from CIG's history, the more money they get, the less they actually produce.

Hey, remember when CR said he could make the best damn space sim ever for just a few million and a couple of years? LOL... yeah, good times.

This. With 250+ alleged millions in the bag, money does not seem to be the problem at CIG. Lack of competence and production/management skills is most likely where the main issues lie.

Seems like CIG really does need $250M + to develop the game most of us want to play.

I would be interested in ED, costs too. I can see it costing billions to make games in the future.

Not really. Regarding costs, these are the number of employees for some of the current main space games, and SC:

SC, around 400-500+ employees for several years now

No Mans Sky, 10-20 employees
Elite Dangerous, around 100 employees in the last few years
Astroneer, around 25 employees
Kerbal Space Program, around 20 employees
Rebel Galaxy Outlaw, 2 people 4 years ago, a few more probably today but hey

As you can see other developers have no issues with releasing great space games with much much much lower budgets than SC. SC is costing (so far) at least 5 times more (probably quite a lot more given their public and notorious inefficiencies) than Elite, and 20+ times more than other well known main space games these days.

Trying to equate CIG's waste of backers money, with actual games development professionally managed costs is a bit nonsensical to be honest.

 

[MTBFritz]

What I find weird is all the videos praising SC to the heavens, it’s almost as they are paid to do this, like Rotten Tomato praise Star Wars

Thinking highly of something is natural if you express interest or are invested in said activity/project.

What I find "weird" is that even tho I have a lot of things I like I wont go out of my way to advertise them as something they are NOT simply because I realize restrictions or are aware that others value different things which would severely diminish the value I myself put into certain things and then as soon as my own biased take on something is challenged turn around and make it a war of attrition riddled with ridicule, word games, trolling and ultimately turning a simple difference in perception into a crusade war of belief over a video game. This doesnt match with the usual prosa of "I have a great live and earn good money, am a balanced individual with a successful lifestyle and I dont care what you think" mantra that I have read so often...no doubt as a weaponized information to "score points" in this exchange.

I think the first time I mentioned "you cant talk to these people" in 2016 or maybe even before. Its never been more obvious to me since the latest influx of new recruits and "converts" to the cause. And trying to start a serious discussion (something many even put forth as the reason for response) is nigh impossible when you get avoidance, goal shifting, ill-placed humor and obstruction/deflection as answers. All you usually get is bickering and annoying half-jokes...pages over pages /sigh

The remark about CIG taking in funding annually being equal to "success", this caught my attention but has been sufficiantly answered already. If you think.....as a FAN/PLAYER that all the support currently going into Star Citizens development somehow proves its quality then I understand exactly why this discussion is going nowhere....

Oh well, back to the regular program

 

[metatheurgist]

This. With 250+ alleged millions in the bag, money does not seem to be the problem at CIG.

I'd say money is a massive problem at CIG. With their previously "best" year ever they ran out of money and had to get an investor. Now they are saddled with an investor one year later with still no game. Will anyone buy another 10%?

 

[Viajero]

I'd say money is a massive problem at CIG. With their previously "best" year ever they ran out of money and had to get an investor. Now they are saddled with an investor one year later with still no game. Will anyone buy another 10%?

Yeah, the problem is rather how they spend waste it. Getting it does not seem to be a problem (record breaking even). Which will make an eventual failure to deliver even more shameful.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

This. With 250+ alleged millions in the bag, money does not seem to be the problem at CIG. Lack of competence and production/management skills is most likely where the main issues lie.



Not really. Regarding costs, these are the number of employees for some of the current main space games, and SC:

SC, around 400-500+ employees for several years now

No Mans Sky, 10-20 employees
Elite Dangerous, around 100 employees in the last few years
Astroneer, around 25 employees
Kerbal Space Program, around 20 employees
Rebel Galaxy Outlaw, 2 people 4 years ago, a few more probably today but hey

As you can see other developers have no issues with releasing great games with much much much lower budgets than SC. SC is costing (so far) at least 5 times more (probably quite a lot more given their public and notorious inefficiencies) than Elite, and 20+ times more than other well known main space games these days.

Trying to equate CIG's waste of backers money, with actual games development professionally managed costs is a bit nonsensical to be honest.

Hey, remember when CR said that every dollar given to CIG was worth 5 dollars spent by more traditional companies with publishers?

Good times!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'd say money is a massive problem at CIG. With their previously "best" year ever they ran out of money and had to get an investor. Now they are saddled with an investor one year later with still no game. Will anyone buy another 10%?

I bid 1 potato!

 

[Snarfbuckle]

No Mans Sky, 10-20 employees
Elite Dangerous, around 100 employees in the last few years
Astroneer, around 25 employees
Kerbal Space Program, around 20 employees
Rebel Galaxy Outlaw, 2 people 4 years ago, a few more probably today but hey

Now, i do not dispute what you are saying but...We have to remember that CIG are creating TWO games at once, that cannot really be disputed, the SQ42 and the multiplayer aspect that both share similar assets so one cannot really say they are having a massive budget for ONE game.

How smart it is to try and make an MMO and a single player campaign all at once that is a completely different subject.

- We all know how the release of NMS went and it has taken them YEARS just to get to what they promised in the release, and they most likely needed the sales from the games they DID sell to get where they are now.

- Elite as it was released was basically Elite 1 with massive graphic improvement and since then we have gotten a few more dead rocks to land at on the visual level, a lot of gameplay added for sure but mostly the same kind of grinding all the time. It's a damn good game, but they too released something very bare boned.

- Astroneer is visually nice but it's just a sandbox with little to do within it, except gather resources and build things.

- Kerbal space program is just awesome, not my cup of tea (poor patience) but awesome.

- I hope Rebel Galaxy Outlaw is good (will wait until it leaves epic store) but Rebel Galaxy was damn fun.

 

[ZeeWolf]

Just getting caught up with gaming news, and it looks like hellion is no more. Seems like CIG really does need $250M + to develop the game most of us want to play.

I would be interested in ED, costs too. I can see it costing billions to make games in the future.

What exactly is this game "most of us want to play"?

Over the years CIG have pitched 'best damn space game' with FPS that exceeds COD, with racing that exceeds GTA all taking place in "space" all in "massive multiplayer" "living breathing universe "...which is just everything. Working on linux with amazing VR and mods and self hosted servers.

The design seems to be literally all things to all men. A dangerous thing to be crowdfunding and an absurd way to go about creating any product.

They have delivered something quite sparse on mechanics with very questionable design choices that comes off more as a P2W map space to mess around in expensive assets that partially fund the "Robert's family trust" . It's not something I want to play much and isn't what Robert's pitched in 2012.

I dont see this reality in which CIG suddenly prove that scope creep works or promising just whatever brings in donations at the time. At some point you have to start nailing down a release scope which inevitably will disappoint OR you have to rely solely on your consumers unlimited trust that you will one day deliver everything you promised. I wonder if that trust is truly unlimited relative to human life span.

I dont think there is a consumer entertainment product that "most of us want to play" as we all have different expectations, in reality developers should offer us what they have achieved. Discerning consumers should be backing reviewable products on the shelf.

 

[Cotic]

Ya know, I am much more impressed with what Ninja Theory did with their budget than CIG are doing with theirs. Just continually throwing a crap ton of money at something is not at all impressive.

NT had a tiny budget, they set up a 360 degree recording studio in house using low end kit, had a Go-Pro for handy cam, came up with some really cool tech to record an actor's actions and map them in game in real time and produced a gem of a game.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_qcaLYu62g

 

[Viajero]

Now, i do not dispute what you are saying but...We have to remember that CIG are creating TWO games at once, that cannot really be disputed, the SQ42 and the multiplayer aspect that both share similar assets so one cannot really say they are having a massive budget for ONE game.

How smart it is to try and make an MMO and a single player campaign all at once that is a completely different subject.

We also have to remember that having a single player campaign included with the MMO was the plan from very early on. Having a single player campaign is also the norm in many other multiplayer games, nothing unusual there.

The decision to split the two and enlarge the scope (and therefore costs) of both over the years to the point you can even argue that now they may be developing two separate games is all on CIG: This would be covered under the above reference to waste of backers money and lack of competence and production/management skills.

 

[Skizomeuh]

Seems like CIG really does need $250M + to develop the game most of us want to play.

Would have, could have, should have. Your crying over spilt milk. 2019 has been the most successful year for CIG, so one would say they are on the right course....

Already 250 spent/wasted and still pre-alpha... So I guess "250+" is not enough, it'd more in the "250^" range needed to accomplish the "dream of all dreams"

And I'd love for 2020 that stops the indecent nonsense of painting $250M as "success" when 1) the 250 are essentially already gone, 2) they weren't benefits after all just dollars generously given to help making a game that's still MIA, 3) we would be able to talk about success (or not) only once it's released.

As for how CIG envisions development, many are putting cart before horse too... When you're refueling your car you're not actually travelling the distance the incoming fuel you're pumping in will allow you to, are you?