I agree 100% with Drew here

[drew]

Wow. My very own thread. Definitely arrived now.

Dev bashing isn't a good look, for him or you.

If you listen to my stream (and I acknowledge you may not have the time or inclination, Mr. Stigbob) you'll note that I never criticised any individual or team. I have very great respect for the devs, the testers, artists, QA, support (particularly these guys - I ran a support desk in the 00s and know of that hell) and CM teams. They do what they're told and they do a great job. Any negative comments I've made have been done respectfully and aimed at Frontier as a whole, or the management team behind the decisions not to pursue narrative in ED or to curate the lore of Elite. Nothing more, nothing less. I haven't been offensive, nor have I been partisan (as much as possible given my opinion).

To put that in context, this management team have managed to turn FDev from a small studio into a very significant company over the last 5 years, a remarkable achievement. I applaud that.

This discussion should be about whether lore and narrative have a place in ED or not. I say they add immeasureably to the quality, longevity and playability of a game. You are perfectly entitled to disagree. That so many people here, on reddit, twitter, facebook (and in correspondance with me privately) have expressed their concerns over the dissolution of GalNet and the lack of adherance to established lore since 2017 clearly indicates that some % of the playerbase agrees this is an issue. Whether Frontier does anything about that is entirely up to them. I haven't asked them to do anything about it.

I believe, and have throughout most of the life of ED, that there has been a major missed opportunity to capitalise on the heritage of the previous games. Yet, Elite Dangerous remains a very good game. My point is that, I believe, it could have achieved greatness without much additional expenditure, by curating the lore and placing a greater emphasis on narrative. This has been in response to Kai's open letter, Obsidian's Video and the recent Lave Radio podcast. I happen to stream, so I covered the topic. It's only my opinion, feel free to ignore it if you will, but don't accuse me of being hostile or 'bashing' people please.

Right on, Commanders.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

If lore becomes secondary to gameplay

Let's not get too rose-tinted with our spectacles here. Yes, internal consistency of the game universe is important, but the original Elite had plenty of places where lore was secondary to gameplay.

For example...

In the original Elite, holographic "telepresence" communication between systems exists (Rafe and Alex have a conversation this way during the Dark Wheel) [1,2]. There are other in-game mechanisms, such as bounties being transmitted between systems, your bank balance and rank being carried along safely, etc. that also rely on inter-system communications being at least as fast as the player ship is, and possibly faster. (How long a hyperspace jump actually takes is never stated, of course, until FE2)

It is also stated in the manual that "GalCop regulations prohibit planets from advertising their requirements or announcing their market prices beyond their own System Space" - and indeed, in-game, there was no way to find out prices without going there ... a constraint only recently dropped in Elite Dangerous!

But obviously, given the communications systems in place - and also the ability to ask a trader who'd just come from there! - it should have been possible to get at least semi-reliable information on prices, at the very least through illegal channels (may as well be hanged for piracy as for release of trade prices).

That wasn't what happened - the game just ignored that prices "should" be possible to obtain, partly because the hardware limitations of the time would have made it a little tricky to sensibly generate the prices before entering the system, and partly because it would have made trading far too straightforward and too easy to figure out the (relatively simple) rules. So lore was secondary to gameplay there. Rightly so, of course.

[1] There are also plenty of remote-controlled drone ships, like the one which rescues Alex in chapter 2, or the orbital shuttle in the manual, or the rumours that the navy is working on a Galcop equivalent to the Thargon. Oh no!
[2] Telepresence control of combat ships does not appear to exist, but you have to handwave an infosec objection to armed remote controlled ships being too vulnerable to hijack, as all the technology is clearly there to do it if people want to. (You could handwave the same infosec objection for Elite Dangerous, if you wanted to explain why telepresence is allowed for secondary but not primary crew.)

 

[Stigbob]

Wow. My very own thread. Definitely arrived now.

If you listen to my stream (and I acknowledge you may not have the time or inclination, Mr. Stigbob) you'll note that I never criticised any individual or team. I have very great respect for the devs, the testers, artists, QA, support (particularly these guys - I ran a support desk in the 00s and know of that hell) and CM teams. They do what they're told and they do a great job. Any negative comments I've made have been done respectfully and aimed at Frontier as a whole, or the management team behind the decisions not to pursue narrative in ED or to curate the lore of Elite. Nothing more, nothing less. I haven't been offensive, nor have I been partisan (as much as possible given my opinion).

To put that in context, this management team have managed to turn FDev from a small studio into a very significant company over the last 5 years, a remarkable achievement. I applaud that.

This discussion should be about whether lore and narrative have a place in ED or not. I say they add immeasureably to the quality, longevity and playability of a game. You are perfectly entitled to disagree. That so many people here, on reddit, twitter, facebook (and in correspondance with me privately) have expressed their concerns over the dissolution of GalNet and the lack of adherance to established lore since 2017 clearly indicates that some % of the playerbase agrees this is an issue. Whether Frontier does anything about that is entirely up to them. I haven't asked them to do anything about it.

I believe, and have throughout most of the life of ED, that there has been a major missed opportunity to capitalise on the heritage of the previous games. Yet, Elite Dangerous remains a very good game. My point is that, I believe, it could have achieved greatness without much additional expenditure, by curating the lore and placing a greater emphasis on narrative. This has been in response to Kai's open letter, Obsidian's Video and the recent Lave Radio podcast. I happen to stream, so I covered the topic. It's only my opinion, feel free to ignore it if you will, but don't accuse me of being hostile or 'bashing' people please.

Right on, Commanders.

Cheers,

Drew.

(cut&paste from a few pages back mildly edited as its to you not about you)

I watched some of that gave up when you were on about the galnet staff all working on new era, since FDEV clearly said they were making sure all the text for FC's and new era was up to scratch which is positive thing and means new stuff is coming rather than DOOOOOM ! as you were trying to imply. In fact they mentioned fleet carriers first, something you seemed to ignore as it doesn't fit the GAH DOOM everything's gone wrong narrative.

Given the open letter tantrums we've had about minor bugs recently, where some people directly asked for content to be pushed back in favour of bug fixing its more giving the players exactly what some of us asked for rather than some sort of sinister plot.

Snipped down version of the original DEV post here :

However, we also want to mention that the narrative/writing team are not solely responsible for writing GalNet articles, but also a number of other duties that contribute to the creation of Elite Dangerous. With the advent of the Fleet Carriers update and the 2020 release, their efforts have been focused on ensuring that all of the text required for it is done in time.

 

[drew]

I watched some of that gave up when you were on about the galnet staff all working on new era, since FDEV clearly said they were making sure all the text for FC's and new era was up to scratch which is positive thing and means new stuff is coming rather than DOOOOOM ! as you were trying to imply. In fact they mentioned fleet carriers first, something you seemed to ignore as it doesn't fit the GAH DOOM everything's gone wrong narrative.

Given the open letter tantrums we've had about minor bugs recently, where some people directly asked for content to be pushed back in favour of bug fixing its more giving the players exactly what some of us asked for rather than some sort of sinister plot.

I've never implied the game is 'doomed' (whatever that might mean) - that's your hyperbole. I am neither a 'White Knight' nor a 'Doomsayer', though I've been accused of both in my time (oh... and a Frontier 'shill' for my stance on the 'offline' debacle where I supported them 100% despite much outrage). For the absence of any other doubt, I was a fan-fic author, but have been a professionally published author since 2011. I am now a full-time professional author (since end 2018).

The game is clearly doing very well as a going concern and any sense that the game is near its end is demonstrable nonsense given the recent financial results in the Fdev annual report and the ambitious projections they are making for the 'New Era' for their shareholders.

I have criticised their approach to lore and narrative alone. Anything you claim I'm saying beyond that is your own personal narrative. Bravo for blazing your own trail.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[StevieG]

74 days since the last community goal ended. As Drew said this isnt about money, they have lots, made lots and are still making lots.

So this is about not wanting to and the question is why dont they want to?
Either they have something mega up their sleeve or someone has dropped the ball in upper management.

Bring back Sandro, bring back Michael Brooks.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Whoa man! Should I wheel out the violins?

It's a freakin' game not a funeral procession.

That’s for sure. Funeral processions go somewhere.

 

[pippo]

Bring back Sandro, bring back Michael Brooks.

Spoiler

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Bring back Sandro, bring back Michael Brooks.

Whilst I would like some of the old crew back, it is only because I liked their obvious passion and enthusiasm... I dont think progression in the game or lack there in of can be attributed to any individuals. Indeed back when Sandros was involved there were many people asking him to be fired (which for the record I always thought was bang out of order)

 

[Stigbob]

I've never implied the game is 'doomed' (whatever that might mean) - that's your hyperbole. I am neither a 'White Knight' nor a 'Doomsayer', though I've been accused of both in my time (oh... and a Frontier 'shill' for my stance on the 'offline' debacle where I supported them 100% despite much outrage).

The game is clearly doing very well as a going concern and any sense that the game is near its end is demonstrable nonsense given the recent financial results in the Fdev annual report and the ambitious projections they are making for the 'New Era' for their shareholders.

I have criticised their approach to lore and narrative alone. Anything you claim I'm saying beyond that is your own personal narrative. Bravo for blazing your own trail.

Cheers,

Drew.

You said the writing staff being moved on to new era (ignoring FC's) made you think that something had gone wrong with new era and you said it repeatedly. If you didn't intend to imply such a doomy conspiracy I'm not sure why you'd have laboured the point, for me its a positive sign they are working on new stuff .

Glass half full or half empty is a subjective thing. I generally tend towards the positive.

I'm also a shill, a whiteknight, a troll, a Russian bot, an SJW, an undercover cop, a secret dev and David Brabens alt. Depends who you ask and what phase the moon is in.

 

[Old Duck]

It's only my opinion, feel free to ignore it if you will, but don't accuse me of being hostile or 'bashing' people please.

Don't take it personal, Stigbob hates everybody (except Frontier, of course)

 

[Stealthie]

This discussion should be about whether lore and narrative have a place in ED or not. I say they add immeasureably to the quality, longevity and playability of a game. You are perfectly entitled to disagree. That so many people here, on reddit, twitter, facebook (and in correspondance with me privately) have expressed their concerns over the dissolution of GalNet and the lack of adherance to established lore since 2017 clearly indicates that some % of the playerbase agrees this is an issue. Whether Frontier does anything about that is entirely up to them. I haven't asked them to do anything about it.

Beats me how anybody could find a reason to object, TBH.

Take a game that looks similar to ED and you've got pretty nice space sim'.
Add the lore associated with, say, Star Wars or Star Trek - or even with Elite, itself - and you've got a whole bunch of extra stuff to bounce ideas around with.
It seems like, at best (worst?), all anybody should be is apathetic rather than actively hostile.

And, on the opposite side, if somebody's suggesting that ED is being limited in some way as a result of a need to comply with lore then, frankly, that's probably just the result of game-dev's who lack sufficient imagination to make a proposed feature in such a way that it does fit in with existing lore.

Let's face it, sci-fi fans are likely to be a fairly broad-minded bunch and so are gamers.
It shouldn't take a lot of extra effort from a game-dev' to create content that complies with lore rather than ignoring it or, at worst, contradicting it.

 

[Old Duck]

I'm also a shill, a whiteknight, a troll, a Russian bot, an SJW, an undercover cop, a secret dev and David Brabens alt.

D. All of the above

 

[Stigbob]

D. All of the above

Full moon tonight ?.

 

[Stealthie]

Full moon tonight ?.

Was there ever a time when you decided not to keep making snarky jibes at people?

Asking for a friend.

 

[drew]

You said the writing staff being moved on to new era (ignoring FC's) made you think that something had gone wrong with new era and you said it repeatedly. If you didn't intend to imply such a doomy conspiracy I'm not sure why you'd have laboured the point, for me its a positive sign they are working on new stuff .

You're still spinning your own hyperbole.

I said something "odd had happened" in their priorities given that GalNet Audio had been "dev'd" and was effectively now a useless add-on given there are no longer any GalNet articles for it to play. That they wasted dev time back in late 2017 on a feature that is no longer being used clearly indicates their programme management is not effective, or that they simply changed their minds and wrote off the investment of dev time. Either way it's very inefficient.

Frontier's recent track record of hitting announced delivery milestones is not particularly good (FCs and IceWorlds notably) and the community outcry over quality during 2019 suggested that there were also issues in the QA cycle for the game. There is more than enough objective evidence to suggest that they do indeed have some issues in terms of programme management, headcount planning or staffing in general. I recognise these symptoms because I have been a programme manager for a large organisation delivering complex software solutions to the market (financial services, not game dev, I hasten to add). It's not an easy job and I much sympathy for them in this regard.

None of this makes the implication that the New Era won't arrive, nor that it won't be good when it does. I was attempting to bring the benefit of my experience of these topics to the situation in regards to GalNet. I think we're entitled to have concerns given in the information at hand.

At no stage did I manufacture a 'doomy conspiracy'. I was talking about GalNet, Lore and Narrative. Back on topic.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Stigbob]

Was there ever a time when you decided not to keep making snarky jibes at people?

Asking for a friend.

Was there ever a time you weren't clutching your pearls and feigning a swoon ?.

 

[Stealthie]

Was there ever a time you weren't clutching your pearls and feigning a swoon ?.

I guess I have my answer.

 

[marx]

[...] the community outcry over quality during 2019 suggested that there were also issues in the QA cycle for the game.

Hm, that comment made me wonder about something. How much have you played the game lately? I recall hearing that you went on DW2, but looking at the roster now, it doesn't list you as having completed the expedition. So I wonder if you still have first-hand experience about how the game is since then, or not.

After all, there is no single "the community" for Elite.

 

[Stigbob]

You're still spinning your own hyperbole.

I said something "odd had happened" in their priorities given that GalNet Audio had been "dev'd" and was effectively now a useless add-on given there are no longer any GalNet articles for it to play. That they wasted dev time back in late 2017 on a feature that is no longer being used clearly indicates their programme management is not effective, or that they simply changed their minds and wrote off the investment of dev time. Either way it's very inefficient.

Frontier's recent track record of hitting announced delivery milestones is not particularly good (FCs and IceWorlds notably) and the community outcry over quality during 2019 suggested that there were also issues in the QA cycle for the game. There is more than enough objective evidence to suggest that they do indeed have some issues in terms of programme management, headcount planning or staffing in general. I recognise these symptoms because I have been a programme manager for a large organisation delivering complex software solutions to the market (financial services, not game dev, I hasten to add). It's not an easy job and I much sympathy for them in this regard.

None of this makes the implication that the New Era won't arrive, nor that it won't be good when it does. I was attempting to bring the benefit of my experience of these topics to the situation in regards to GalNet. I think we're entitled to have concerns given in the information at hand.

At no stage did I manufacture a 'doomy conspiracy'. I was talking about GalNet, Lore and Narrative. Back on topic.

Cheers,

Drew.

I take their explanation at face value "gal-nets suspended as they are on FC's and new era" and I'm OK with that. If I doubted it I'd not be considering buying their stuff to be honest.

I even sympathise with how they are trying to avoid the tediously repetitive new software teething issue tantrums that always occur, I think its a waste of time as some people will lose it anyway (we could probably list them with 90% accuracy now). But I appreciate why and how they are trying to mitigate that, even if I think its an ultimately pointless endeavour.

That's based on my experience of some people being in a permanent state of massive shrieking wobbler since roughly late 2015 when the forum became openly hostile to positive people .

 

[CMDR Carbo]

As Drew aptly assumed in his stream, this was most certainly not the decision of the writer's team or the devs, but most certainly a decision of someone in the higher echelons of Frontier's management, who plainly determined "No, we don't want this and we don't need it anyways."
It's just painful to see, how Frontier's questionable management decisions in the past and present led to this game's underwhelming current state.

What adds to the confusion, just a bit more than a year ago they decided to support GalNet by implementing an audio player for easier consumption, with the goal to get more players to read/listen to GalNet News.
Whether those management decision were good ones or a bad ones is up for discussion (and is NOT "dev bashing" btw), but in the least those decisions are very inconsistent.

Edit: Sniped by Drew