General / Off-Topic The safest place

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Arctic Cruise season peaks in the summer when days are longer and lanes less choked with ice, but the ships work perfectly fine in other waters and it's vastly more economical/profitable to keep ships in service. The RCGS Resolute runs both arctic, antarctic, and south/central American routes. It had recently finished the antarctic season and was working it's way north in preparation for the arctic season, running it's Central and South American cruises in between.

You can clearly see the ship's itinerary:

At the time of this incident, they were headed to Willemstead, likely to take on passengers on the way to Panama.



It's crew, and almost certainly nothing.

The idea that one would use a five-star cruise ship in active service to sneak mercenaries into Venezuela is far fetched, as is the idea one would plan on ramming anything, let alone a warship, especially while following procedure and contacting the MRCC for guidance in the process.

There are two different sides to the story and it's too soon for the results of any investigations, but the cruise line's account is far more credible.

Personally, I suspect that jumpy naval authorities became suspicious of the cruise ship (which was adrift and conducting engine repairs very near the border) which was then interdicted by an inexperienced and/or ill-informed crew aboard the Naiguatá. I find it hard to believe the collision was intentional, as that would be profoundly moronic, but a reckless and overly close approach to intimidate or board the Resolute could easily have gone wrong in poor weather.
I find it hard to believe the collision was intentional, as that would be profoundly moronic,

you mean like trying to use a train to ram a hospital ship 😆
 
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For the first time more people left the hospital than entered. Over the hill!
It seems that some European countries are on the plateau of the epidemic.

But we can stay on the plateau for a long time before the descent.

Anyway I read that the virus can circulate during 2 years in the world.

So we haven't finished living with a kind of distrust and caution. Unfortunately.

Indeed still very early, but if both Europe and the US can keep total mortality of the first wave below ~150,000 than that means at least the western world managed to dodge the worst scenarios (with all the respect to the countless victims!). And we might even be able to help out in other parts of the world, if things indeed continue to go well!

We are full interested in helping poor countries
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If you are interested in a good rant, here is the petition this refers to:
" I will not let anyone say that budgetary choices are made at the expense of your security. This is false. I will be the guarantor. " This is what Emmanuel Macron wrote on July 20, 2017 .

However, almost 3 years later, in the midst of a COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic, it is obvious that budgetary choices have been made at the expense of our security. Our health security. In 2018 Emmanuel Macron deleted more than 4,000 hospital beds. In 20 years, 100,000 hospital beds have been eliminated .

Today the 6th economic power in the world, 3rd exporter of arms in the world, today France is full of stocks of LBD and grenades for its police forces but lack of masks, tests, respirators, resuscitation beds for his care forces ...

In the midst of the Coronavirus crisis, Prime Minister Edouard Philippe said on March 28, 2020 during a speech : " I will not let anyone say that there was a delay in the decision-making regarding confinement. "

No one ? Really ?

We are saying here that there has been a delay in containment measures.

We say here that maintaining the first round of municipal elections in this epidemic context was criminal.

We demand the requisition of the means of production of masks and medicines .

We demand from the government of the 6th world economic power that the "appeals for donations" and public charity cease , and that the necessary money be recovered in the gifts distributed for 20 years to the wealthy thanks to the suppression of the ISF , to the reduction of the inheritance tax, to the reduction of the tax on capital income and on the wealthiest income, to that of the tax on the profits of large companies, etc.

We call for the opening of a parliamentary inquiry as well as an independent judicial inquiry so that all the light can be shed on this state scandal .

Whatever happens, it is only together that we can achieve " a complete reassessment of the social" hierarchy "of the trades, in accordance with our values and relative to their real usefulness ".

You will not confine our anger.

It has been signed by 0.0014% of the French population. Not holding my breath there will be a 'requisition of the means of production', but it sounds delightfully retro in 2020...
Many officials say when the Covid crisis is over, there will be investigations and politicians will have to explain themselves.

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Arctic Cruise season peaks in the summer when days are longer and lanes less choked with ice, but the ships work perfectly fine in other waters and it's vastly more economical/profitable to keep ships in service. The RCGS Resolute runs both arctic, antarctic, and south/central American routes. It had recently finished the antarctic season and was working it's way north in preparation for the arctic season, running it's Central and South American cruises in between.

You can clearly see the ship's itinerary:

At the time of this incident, they were headed to Willemstead, likely to take on passengers on the way to Panama.

They could also have been using the downtime to put her into drydock, as I imagine Daimen shipyards (which is one of the better ones in the region) is fairly empty at the moment.
 
An interesting article discussing how the WHO carried (and still is) CCP's water for so long during the crucial, opening phases of the pandemic spread, helping the CCP spread their blanket of lies and disinformation that has helped to dramatically increase the rate of global spread, some estimates claiming up to 95%. Choice nuggets such as "there being no evidence of person to person spread" claimed by the CCP and trumpeted by the WHO as late as the 14th of January.
 
An interesting article discussing how the WHO carried (and still is) CCP's water for so long during the crucial, opening phases of the pandemic spread, helping the CCP spread their blanket of lies and disinformation that has helped to dramatically increase the rate of global spread, some estimates claiming up to 95%. Choice nuggets such as "there being no evidence of person to person spread" claimed by the CCP and trumpeted by the WHO as late as the 14th of January.

It seems to be gaining traction

As the Japanese government counted the cost of the 2020 Tokyo Olympics being postponed to next year, Taro Aso, the country’s deputy prime minister, took out his frustration on the World Health Organisation (WHO). Preparation for a pandemic of exactly this nature had long been the WHO’s top priority. So why did it fail the test so badly when the moment came?
Aso’s answer was that the WHO had grown far too close to China. Indeed, he suggested, it should change its name to the Chinese Health Organisation. Not only was the previous WHO director-general, Margaret Chan, a Chinese national but her successor, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the former Ethiopian health minister, was China’s candidate. The allegation was serious: “Early on, if the WHO had not insisted to the world that China had no pneumonia epidemic, then everybody would have taken precautions,” he said on 28 March. Although it was alerted in late December that a new disease had appeared in the Chinese city of Wuhan, the WHO continued to repeat Beijing’s assurances that there was nothing much to worry about.
The WHO had been warned of the problem in Wuhan from a reliable but awkward source. In common with most international organisations, at China’s insistence the WHO does not include Taiwan as an independent member. That is why those looking for evidence of Taiwan’s performance in the struggle against Covid-19 will search in vain on the WHO website. Yet, as Aso also noted, Taiwan can claim to be a “world leader” in responding to the virus and its impressive record should be known. By screening people arriving on flights from China and tracing the contacts of all known cases, this island country of some 24 million people has so far limited the number of cases to 363, with five deaths.

But this is not a story that the WHO can tell. There was an embarrassing moment in late March, when Bruce Aylward, a senior WHO adviser, was unable to respond to a question by a Hong Kong-based journalist about Taiwan because he dared not acknowledge its existence as a distinct political entity. This is a familiar problem for international bureaucrats. The particular embarrassment in this instance was that Taiwan had warned the WHO of trouble in Wuhan in late December, and particularly about the possibility of human-to-human transmission. This was despite the efforts being made by local Communist Party officials to suppress the news and warn those physicians talking about it openly to stop spreading such damaging rumours. But by the start of this year, the news was emerging in a variety of ways, and not only through Taiwan.
The WHO did not respond to Taiwan’s warning and did not pass it on to others. Instead it stayed close to China’s official line. Even as the seriousness of the situation became apparent the WHO repeated China’s reassurances. Most notoriously, on 14 January, it endorsed the Chinese claim, based on a preliminary investigation, that while this might be another example of animal-to-human transmission of a novel virus, as can happen when wild animals are bought and sold in Chinese “wet markets”, there was as yet no evidence of human-to-human transmission. This was a claim those trying to cope with the developing crisis in the city knew to be false. The WHO passed on this reassuring news in a tweet. Governments around the world, which rely on the WHO as the most authoritative source of information on infectious diseases, took note.
***

On 22 January, the WHO’s emergency committee was convened by teleconference to discuss whether the “novel coronavirus 2019” constituted a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC) – the highest level of alarm short of a pandemic. After “divergent views” had been shared, the advice was that it was not a PHEIC. The following day, however, China announced the tough measures it was imposing to get a grip on the virus in Wuhan. The emergency committee reconvened on 23 January. It heard how the virus was spreading, including to Japan, South Korea and Thailand, and that of 557 reported cases in China, 17 people (around 4 per cent) had died. (An article in the journal Science has estimated that at this time some 86 per cent of all infections within China were undocumented.) The committee found the extent of human-to-human transmission unclear. On this basis it was still reluctant to declare a PHEIC, and decided on a more “intermediate level of alert”.
More information was now requested from China to better “understand the epidemiology and the evolution of this outbreak” as well as the clinical features of the infection and the best treatments. To stop the virus’s international spread, China was to conduct “exit screening at international airports and ports in the affected provinces”. This would allow for early detection of “symptomatic travellers… while minimising interference with international traffic”. China was anxious to avoid the economic disruption that had resulted from the 2002-04 sars outbreak. Back then, the WHO had issued advice to postpone non-essential travel to a sars-affected area, which had the effect of reducing travel to East Asia by around 10 per cent, with dire economic consequences for the aviation industry and tourism.
By this stage other countries were starting to get anxious. US intelligence warned Donald Trump in late January that China was understating the severity of the disease and he reported back the reassurances he had received from Xi Jinping, China’s leader. Major airlines were soon stopping flights from Wuhan. When first Italy (which soon had its first example of an infected traveller from Wuhan) and then the US banned flights, Tedros warned on 4 February that this would “have the effect of increasing fear and stigma, with little public health benefit”. By this time the virus was certainly well on its way around the world.

Slowly, the WHO stepped up its warnings and advice. It finally declared a global public health emergency on 30 January. Tedros was still reluctant to move to the next level. “Using the word pandemic carelessly has no tangible benefit,” he observed on 26 February, “but it does have significant risk in terms of amplifying unnecessary and unjustified fear and stigma, and paralysing systems. It may also signal that we can no longer contain the virus, which is not true.” At this point the main country worrying about stigma was China.



Tedros also feared (probably correctly given the likely course of the pandemic) that the greatest danger was to developing countries. On 12 February operational planning guidance for countries was published, and on 21 February came a more urgent warning that the “window of opportunity” for preventing the virus’s spread might soon close. The next day an expert team from the WHO was at last allowed to visit Wuhan to explore the evidence. Its final report, published at the end of the month, provided vital information that informed emergency preparations around the world. Members of the team praised China for scientific cooperation but noted its nervousness about overstating the deadliness of Covid-19 and the possibility of a “second wave” (the word “resurgence” was used instead).
The report recommended “active, exhaustive case finding and immediate testing and isolation, painstaking contact tracing and rigorous quarantine of close contacts”, while educating the general public “on the seriousness of Covid-19” and how to prevent its spread. When it came to more “stringent measures”, such as suspending large-scale gatherings and closing schools and workplaces, it did not go further than urging “multi-sector scenario planning and simulations”.
This was the advice at the start of March, although by this time the position in a number of countries was already becoming more urgent and testing programmes could only have limited value in containing the spread, especially since many of those carrying the virus showed no or only mild symptoms. On 11 March a pandemic was declared by the WHO. By this time, 114 countries had reported cases. In fairness to the WHO, it was also now in full emergency mode, dispensing essential advice and assistance around the world.
And, again, in fairness to the WHO, all international organisations have to deal carefully with their most powerful members because they need their cooperation. Nor is calling a pandemic on the basis of limited evidence a straightforward matter. Tedros’s predecessor, Margaret Chan, faced severe criticism for declaring a pandemic around the so-called swine flu of 2009 (H1N1/09) too hastily, as the effects turned out to be similar to normal seasonal flu. There were even allegations, later shown to be unfounded, that this had been at the behest of pharmaceutical companies expecting to make money from testing and vaccines.
Yet when it came to reporting on viruses of this sort China had form. Sars also began with the combination of wild animals and a wet market. The reluctance of local officials to pass on bad news to Beijing, and fear of causing economic and social instability, led to delays in telling the outside world. In the aftermath, the WHO made clear that these delays had serious consequences. China agreed to do better next time. It even enshrined the commitment into law. It was a promise it hasn’t kept. Its failure to do so, and the WHO’s reluctance to challenge what it was being told, has cost the world dearly.
 
Oh Great . Instead of cleaning their own house, people now start to decapitate the WHO .

Great . JUUUUSTT....GREAT !

How about we reiterate the brutal messups some countries created with their OWN Pandemic respsonse, blatantly ignoring FOR WEEKS what the WHO has been saying ? How about we talk about bareboning HealthCare Systems ? I mean really guys...denial much, I mean, can it be any more ? And another round of blamegames ? Really ?
 
Oh Great . Instead of cleaning their own house, people now start to decapitate the WHO .

Great . JUUUUSTT....GREAT !

How about we reiterate the brutal messups some countries created with their OWN Pandemic respsonse, blatantly ignoring FOR WEEKS what the WHO has been saying ? How about we talk about bareboning HealthCare Systems ? I mean really guys...denial much, I mean, can it be any more ? And another round of blamegames ? Really ?

Why does it have to be either or?
 
The problem with Taiwan is far broader though. Here is a list of all countries that recognize Taiwan:
Belize (1989)
El Salvador (1961)
Guatemala (1960)
Haiti (1956)
Honduras (1965)
Kiribati (2003)
Marshall Islands (1998)
Nauru (1980–2002, 2005)
Nicaragua (1990)
Palau (1999)
Paraguay (1957)
Saint Kitts and Nevis (1983)
Saint Lucia (1984–1997, 2007)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (1981)
Solomon Islands (1983)
Swaziland (1968)
Tuvalu (1979)
Vatican City (The Holy See) (1942)

That is it. Notice no EU countries (except the Vatican), no Canada/US, no Russia. You cant expect the WHO to take a position in direct confrontation with pretty much all major countries and regions on the planet. Should Taiwan be recognized? Absolutely. Is this the fault of the WHO? Absolutely not. We should all look at our respective governments for that. What happened is all our countries choosing the convenient solution over the moral solution, and that turns out to have an unexpected consequence.
 
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Well, this seems like really bad news. 😕

It depends. If the reverse holds (so infected animals infect us) than it is a major issue. Especially when it involves more common animals such as dogs or cats. That would in effect create a whole new class of reservoir animals that live in our homes and communities. If they can't spread it back the only concern is for the animal welfare. So far, infections of dogs have happened but all dogs were asymptomatic, and no re-spreading has been known so far.
 
I remember talking about "complicity" synk, both in terms of organizations who helped the CCP to cover up as best they could such as the WHO, as well as those who systematically run cover for them on forum's such as this one in a nearly hysterical "all in" effort to distract everyone from the crucial point(s). Between Jan 1st and Jan 31st there were 430k direct flights from China to America, a great deal of which landed in New York. Who knows how many connecting flights. Just let that number sink in when you consider community spread before any form of social distancing or mitigation was even remotely considered. Then ask yourself how many direct flights there were to Spain, or Italy or Germany or France during that same period. The amount of devastation caused by this cover-up defies comprehension. Now, everybody needs to ask themselves how much of this could have been averted if the CCP had been transparent and the WHO hadn't been acting as their propaganda mill.
 
Now, everybody needs to ask themselves how much of this could have been averted if the CCP had been transparent and the WHO hadn't been acting as their propaganda mill.

That isn't exactly what the US intelligence is reporting though. As I suggested earlier, it seems eerily similar to what happened during Chernobyl; mid-level and local bureaucrats are terrified of central authority and what the possible consequences of perceived failure can be. And rightly so, CCP has a long history of making an example of low-ranked individuals to shift blame downwards and keep the illusion of the flawless functioning of the central apparatus.

And more worryingly, this is not merely the picture described for December and January, this seems to be the case to this day. What seems to be happening is a panic-struck CCP scrambling to figure out what is happening and where, with the local regions more concerned with getting out from under the Eye of Sauron than providing factual information that could be of any actual help. If CCP was 'merely' withholding information the problem would be with intent and motivation. In truth it seems to be worse: even if they want to cooperate (which is a question I'll leave to the individual to ponder) they don't even seem to have a clue themselves.

And I wouldn't be surprised if exactly the same thing is happening in Russia. There is some irony there: dictatorships are uniquely positioned to take the most extreme measures needed to deal with it in the most efficient way, but at the same time they also have the worst data collection driven by fear and personal accountability.
 
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That isn't exactly what the US intelligence is reporting though. As I suggested earlier, it seems eerily similar to what happened during Chernobyl; mid-level and local bureaucrats are terrified of central authority and what the possible consequences of perceived failure can be. And rightly so, CCP has a long history of making an example of low-ranked individuals to shift blame downwards and keep the illusion of the flawless functioning of the central apparatus.

And more worryingly, this is not merely the picture described for December and January, this seems to be the case to this day. What seems to be happening is a panic-struck CCP scrambling to figure out what is happening and where, with the local regions more concerned with getting out from under the Eye of Sauron than providing factual information that could be of any actual help.

And I wouldn't be surprised if exactly the same thing is happening in Russia...

The thing is, once the mess had made its way through the spineless barrier up to someone who actually matters, crisis response Team ( epidemiologics and virology ) was sent to Wuhan rather quick . Virus got isolated rather quick and sequenced rather quick . Also, genome shared "immediately" ( afaik ) . When it became apparent and understood what is going on, Central Government was not shy at all to use the harshest possible measures in an affort to try and contain it .

What xactly has anyone else in the World done better ? Also, what is the WHO to blame for, when a LOT if not MOST of "First World" countries blatantly IGNORED the WHO for weeks...and now start paying the price ?
 
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The problem with Taiwan is far broader though. Here is a list of all countries that recognize Taiwan:
Belize (1989)
El Salvador (1961)
Guatemala (1960)
Haiti (1956)
Honduras (1965)
Kiribati (2003)
Marshall Islands (1998)
Nauru (1980–2002, 2005)
Nicaragua (1990)
Palau (1999)
Paraguay (1957)
Saint Kitts and Nevis (1983)
Saint Lucia (1984–1997, 2007)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (1981)
Solomon Islands (1983)
Swaziland (1968)
Tuvalu (1979)
Vatican City (The Holy See) (1942)

That is it. Notice no EU countries (except the Vatican), no Canada/US, no Russia. You cant expect the WHO to take a position in direct confrontation with pretty much all major countries and regions on the planet. Should Taiwan be recognized? Absolutely. Is this the fault of the WHO? Absolutely not. We should all look at our respective governments for that. What happened is all our countries choosing the convenient solution over the moral solution, and that turns out to have an unexpected consequence.

I was looking more at the allegation that the WHO were apparently unwilling or unable to provide much needed independent oversight. Not so much the Taiwan issue.

As the Japanese government counted the cost of the 2020 Tokyo Olympics being postponed to next year, Taro Aso, the country’s deputy prime minister, took out his frustration on the World Health Organisation (WHO). Preparation for a pandemic of exactly this nature had long been the WHO’s top priority. So why did it fail the test so badly when the moment came?
Aso’s answer was that the WHO had grown far too close to China. Indeed, he suggested, it should change its name to the Chinese Health Organisation. Not only was the previous WHO director-general, Margaret Chan, a Chinese national but her successor, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the former Ethiopian health minister, was China’s candidate. The allegation was serious: “Early on, if the WHO had not insisted to the world that China had no pneumonia epidemic, then everybody would have taken precautions,” he said on 28 March. Although it was alerted in late December that a new disease had appeared in the Chinese city of Wuhan, the WHO continued to repeat Beijing’s assurances that there was nothing much to worry about.
The WHO had been warned of the problem in Wuhan from a reliable but awkward source. In common with most international organisations, at China’s insistence the WHO does not include Taiwan as an independent member. That is why those looking for evidence of Taiwan’s performance in the struggle against Covid-19 will search in vain on the WHO website. Yet, as Aso also noted, Taiwan can claim to be a “world leader” in responding to the virus and its impressive record should be known. By screening people arriving on flights from China and tracing the contacts of all known cases, this island country of some 24 million people has so far limited the number of cases to 363, with five deaths.

Admittedly the allegation comes from the Japanese prime minister and historically there has been much friction between the two countries - and the Olympics has taken a hit.

But as far as I'm aware (because Google told me) The New Statesman if left/liberal leaning. The polar opposite apparently of the source that Jason quoted.

Of course none of the above means that independent governments shouldn't take their share of the blame - but the WHO shouldn't be viewed as a scared cow that can do no wrong/not be questioned if it's going to be fit for purpose/trusted in future.

ETA - correction for clarification
 
An interesting map, showing projected odds of epidemic spread per county

Seems the virus is moving inwards from both coasts, with a central 'pillar' from Texas in the South to Montana/North-Dakota/Minnesota in the North where the odds are there is little happening (yet). Its hard to 'grok' the size of some of those states, curious if there are any odds of their neighboring states containing it?
 
An interesting map, showing projected odds of epidemic spread per county

Seems the virus is moving inwards from both coasts, with a central 'pillar' from Texas in the South to Montana/North-Dakota/Minnesota in the North where the odds are there is little happening (yet). Its hard to 'grok' the size of some of those states, curious if there are any odds of their neighboring states containing it?

Crazy, I thought "Stranger in a strange Land" was some kind of little known, fringe novel....anyways...still some areas where there is no "stay-at-home-order", and people still go to church . Interesting to say the least.
 
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Of course none of the above means that independent governments shouldn't take their share of the blame - but the WHO shouldn't be viewed as a scared cow that can do no wrong/not be questioned if it's going to be fit for purpose/trusted in future.

Oh absolutely. But the problem as far as I can tell is that the WHO doesn't have any concrete instruments for such a situation: they are dependent on info provided by the local governments, and they cannot unilaterally say "CCP is unreliable, we dont trust their assurances, so lets have a peek ourselves.". The problem is political in nature: as long as all major players pretend China is a trustworthy party on the global stage and Taiwan is not to be recognized, WHO has little option but to accept information from the CCP and reject Taiwan and anything helpful coming from there.

That doesn't mean they are a sacred cow or cannot do wrong, but it means that if we want them to function better in the future we need to provide them with the instruments to do so.
 
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