General / Off-Topic The safest place

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Nope. I'm not saying that. I don't blame WHO per se and i said that on several occasions - no idea why you keep pushing that...

I'm just pointing out that Sars-Cov-2 spread way before it was announced as Emergency on January 30th, before Wuhan lockdown on January 23rd and even before we had a chance to develop tests - that is before publishing the genome of what was known until then nCov (novel Coronavirus) on January 12

And hopefully this under-the-radar spread should be analyzed in detail so we are better prepared next time.

Why do you think WHO Issued guidance as early as Jan 5th, or 10th depending on what it actually means ?

To me, it is a sheer miracle that those initial 41 cases were picked up by a surveillance network in China .

Can you make comprehensive suggestions on how to make the early recognition of highly contagious agents faster, more precise ? Ring up WHO and tell them about it, I am sure they would be GLAD ! AH wait, maybe not . Maybe these people have been working on exactly that for decades, in cooperation with specialists and nations all over the Globe . I do not understand how you think anyone could have recognized SARS - CoV -2 before the genome was sequenced and a test developed . Genome was sequenced/shared 7th of Jan. PCR Test ready and adopted as global recommendation by WHO a few days later, protocol shared for free with the World . Just : NOONE Listened ! National Health Agencies did not adopt/use the Test . I mean, really, what is your case here ?
 
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Which is exactly what AIDS did.

That's not how I recall it.

I seem to recall that it was widely known that people in Africa were dying of "the skinny disease" long before AIDS became an issue in the West.
The problem, of course, is that when anything bad is happening in Africa, there's rarely the resources to investigate it thoroughly.
 
Why do you think WHO Issued guidance as early as Jan 5th, or 10th depending on what it actually means ?

Guidance?
They were clueless. Like everyone else - although, as i said, i do have some doubts about the Chinese.

January 5th announcement

Based on the preliminary information from the Chinese investigation team, no evidence of significant human-to-human transmission and no health care worker infections have been reported
...
WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the current information available on this event.
 
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Guidance?
They were clueless. Like everyone else - although, as i said, i do have some doubts about the Chinese.

January 5th announcement
Cherry picking much huh ? For your convenience, I am positing the FULL Text of WHO's advice from Jan 5th :

WHO advice
Based on information provided by national authorities, WHO’s recommendations on public health measures and surveillance of influenza and severe acute respiratory infections still apply.

WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travellers. In case of symptoms suggestive of respiratory illness either during or after travel, travellers are encouraged to seek medical attention and share travel history with their healthcare provider.

WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the current information available on this event.

For more information:


And no, they were NOT clueless . The just had no EVIDENCE, no FACTS, no DATA, no GENOME . "How come ?" you ask ? Because it is a NEW Virus .

Nevertheless, they provided Guidance, advice, warning etc., based on the experience gained with CoV -1 and MERS . Just...almost noone listened .
 
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It is really hard to swallow that people are SO easily convinced about WHO misleading the world by media & spindoctors . The global Agency which has best and most expereince with SARS - CoV -1, MERS . The people who KNOW what "pneumonia of unknown origin" popping up in China and being identified ( picked up by the surveillance network ) - when there were 41(!) cases - can mean . Instead of thinking "hmmmm...it would only be logical if those guys would have had an Idea of what was VERY likely to come, and therefore advised and did their best to prepare the world for the worst case"...people rather go "WHO is to blame ! THEY did eveything WRONG! THEY mislead the WORLD !" as soon as they are being this fed by whomever .

Really...hard to believe people are so gullible XD .

I suppose the reason why people say such things is this, this and this.
 
Without the same thing being registered/reported in the origin country, surely.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

If China wasn't the country of origin then the virus must've, somehow, infected a bunch of people in it's country of origin, not caused an outbreak in that country, been transported to China, infected a bunch of people in China, caused an outbreak there - while, at the same time, no outbreak was reported in whatever country it started - and then it got transported to other countries where it did cause outbreaks.

Is this a likely scenario?

I don't think so.
 
nope.
what i'm saying is this below...

This pandemic should be analyzed and, like in a giant plane crash, a thorough inquiry should be performed
Not to find someone to blame for, but to setup measures, guidelines and procedures so we will be better prepared next time.

Here is the fun part : WHO does not need you, or anyone else, to tell them this should be done . This IS done, yearly, on everything WHO does . With a bit of digging, I can link you the exact media briefing from this year ( right after the accusations were blowing with full force ) where the 3 speaking Dr.s literally said "We are all very much looking forward to the AAR ( regarding the Pandemic ) ." These people WANT to do the best Job they can, and they are looking forward to their actions being scrutinized by the member states and others, so that mistakes become apparent, and things can be done better .
 
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It's also odd that it began in Wuhan and only in Wuhan (other big cities weren't locked down and Hubei was the focus of chinese health efforts), had it entered from an exterior country it'd have most likely entered through Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou as they have the most international traffic. Wuhan also has a large airport but it's #16 in passenger counts.
 
Yeah, that's what I mean.

If China wasn't the country of origin then the virus must've, somehow, infected a bunch of people in it's country of origin, not caused an outbreak in that country, been transported to China, infected a bunch of people in China, caused an outbreak there - while, at the same time, no outbreak was reported in whatever country it started - and then it got transported to other countries where it did cause outbreaks.

Is this a likely scenario?

I don't think so.

It is . Keywords being "reported", "detected" .

2. Natural selection in humans following zoonotic transfer
It is possible that a progenitor of SARS-CoV-2 jumped into humans, acquiring the genomic features described above through adaptation during undetected human-to-human transmission. Once acquired, these adaptations would enable the pandemic to take off and produce a sufficiently large cluster of cases to trigger the surveillance system that detected it ..



 
Spindoctors?

The piece on Taiwan is factually incorrect . The 2nd one would require really lengthy discussion . The 3d: Is it not something that can be applauded if China does scrutinize their response, and finds mistakes were made, in an effort to make things better ? Nevertheless, is it not that the extreme measures having been implemented in Wuhan/Hubei really were helpfull in slowing the spread ? Name me ONE other country that did respond with comparably drastic measures to contain spread ?

Hence, spindoctors . Media . Chomsky has a thing or 2 to say about them, it is all very interesting...
 
The piece on Taiwan is factually incorrect . The 2nd one would require really lengthy discussion . The 3d: Is it not something that can be applauded if China does scrutinize their response, and finds mistakes were made, in an effort to make things better ? Nevertheless, is it not that the extreme measures having been implemented in Wuhan/Hubei really were helpfull in slowing the spread ? Name me ONE other country that did respond with comparably drastic measures to contain spread ?

Hence, spindoctors . Media . Chomsky has a thing or 2 to say about them, it is all very interesting...

The piece on Taiwan is factually incorrect.

Although the burden of proof is on you given I already provided a source and you haven't I'll post some other reports of poor communication by the WHO in this instace.

According to FT [Finantial Times], Taiwan vice-president Chen Chien-jen said its doctors had heard from mainland colleagues about medical staff getting ill, which is a sign of human-to-human transmission, and Taipei officials reported this on December 31 to both China and International Health Regulations (IHR), a WHO framework for exchange of epidemic prevention and response data between 196 countries.

The alert was ignored. China’s health ministry confirmed human-to-human transmission of Covid-19 on January 20.
The actual article of the Finantial Times is behind a paywall in case you wonder why I didn't cite the original source.

The 2nd one would require really lengthy discussion.

I don't know what is there to discuss, human to human transmition had already been confirmed, there were thousands of confirmed cases in China and it was clear by the speed of spread that this was a pandemic in the doing.

The 3d: Is it not something that can be applauded if China does scrutinize their response, and finds mistakes were made, in an effort to make things better ?

This is the strawman, the WHO can praise China for that (however vague or true that may or may not be) but it's misleading to call China's response transparent (that's Tedros's description) because of the simple fact that they (either top or local officials, it really doesn't matter) supressed information on COVID-19 early on and also prevented the CDC and WHO health officials to come and assist although eventually they did let some WHO officials to come in.

Nevertheless, is it not that the extreme measures having been implemented in Wuhan/Hubei really were helpfull in slowing the spread?

Yes, national spread that is given the COVID-19 had already spread out to many other countries by that time.

Name me ONE other country that did respond with comparably drastic measures to contain spread?

I certainly don't know of one, it's not relevant in either case, what you want to have are effective measures not drastic. To illustrate my point take the example of Taiwan, it certainly didn't have measures as drastic as China but it certainly was more effective given they have 438 cases as of today 4th of may 2020.

Hence, spindoctors . Media . Chomsky has a thing or 2 to say about them, it is all very interesting...

The pot calling the kettle.
 
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I'll reserve this spot for a more in depth reply but suffice it to say, you are using a strawman and turning a blind eye on other issues.

You mean the other Issues you just pulled out of the hat ? Which were not part of the articles you linked ? Strawman, please let me know where, so I can respond accordingly .
 
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