Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

[Ian Skippy]

It would seem that some of you have got lost.

Just to remind you that - in case you misunderstood the thread title - this is the thread for discussing Star Citizen.

Off topic posts removed. Stay on topic please.

Ha, when I clicked the link my wine-soaked brain thought this was you warning us in a DD topic to stop discussing Star Citizen and point us towards this topic. But instead you are already here and ask us to start discussing Star Citizen.

These boards are a riot!

 

[Surefoot]

Hello games got lambasted for basically releasing a game as gold when in reality it was still beta.

I played it when it was released, having completely ignored the hype and drama around it. It was a decent survival game. More importantly it was stable, without major bugs, or silly mechanics. It was not a beta. It was maybe incomplete relative to the hype and promises, but when considered as a finished product of its own it was decent and could be called a complete game.
That much cannot be said of SC. The core game engine is broken. Major engine related bugs have been there for the most part of 8 years. They wont be fixed, ever. If it reaches "release" status anytime before 2030 (which i doubt), it will still carry all these major flaws.

 

[AlPilg]

How much has the average player invested in playing ED in the past 6 years. Personally, I have a PS4 copy $60.00 not to mention 20 plus for cosmetics I spent. I have an Xbox copy another $60.00 not to mention 20 more for cosmetics, and a both a steam copy and an Frontier copy one of which was only $40 the other was $60 not to mention again, the 40 and more cosmetics. Do the math and that's $300 plus in a game that according to David ten year plan, isn't finished yet. I've got a whopping $150.00 in SC. And considering my play style, and the number of hours I will play, that's pretty cheap.

Games do get expensive if you buy them on every available format, you do realise you don't have to you know? And you never had to buy a seperate Steam version, you could apply for a key from Frontier if I remember correctly.

Sorry, but this is exactly the sort of rubbish that SC fans have been churning out for years now, you would have to actually pay me to endure that "game" for any length of time.

 

[VR Golgot]

Do the math and that's $300 plus in a game that according to David ten year plan, isn't finished yet. I've got a whopping $150.00 in SC. And considering my play style, and the number of hours I will play, that's pretty cheap.

Is that ‘will play’ as in an aspiration for the future? Because already that would be a notable difference.

But even if you’re actively playing and enjoying the current shonky alpha builds, surely you can see the difference between putting money down on a game that has hit gold and been released, versus one that’s still an ‘early access’ alpha, with attendant uber-bugginess, and potential to fall far short of its aspirations? (As many, many EA titles do).

And surely you recognise some of the controversies around CIG’s monetisation approaches? From the infamous macro purchases that haven’t been delivered to date (step forward the Idris and friends, down to every big-ticket shell in the game with none of their unique pre-sold functions); to the stretch goals and accompanying tech that appear on the face of it to be undeliverable (step forward 100+ system exploration, server meshing of 10k+ players etc). To the fact that they keep perpetuating this cycle. (Will the $2000 Kraken Privateer, with its scope-shifting mobile market, ever become a viable, playable entity in the game? Etc.)

And that’s without mentioning the notable effect that this ostensibly P2W system has on game design. ‘Capital killer’ ships, sold at a premium, that can’t even take down a luxury yacht while flying in packs. (Because the 890J costs $950 and the Retaliator a mere $275). The effect the grindwalls / serf nerfs have on the starter pack experience. (Buying a few more tiers up certainly does help get you going after each wipe doesn’t it )

TLDR:

These are false parallels you’re drawing.

Throw your money at something that is:

• An early access alpha
• With P2W monetisation and design
• And ongoing scope creep, which exacerbates the EA risks of non-delivery

That is absolutely fine. You do you.

But the only thing that behaviour has in common with the other released games you’re mentioning is: Player spends their cash.

It’s what comes out the other end of the vending machine that’s important. And by the time it’s out, you can more readily discern what the hell it actually is

If you keep spending money on that thing, then you’ve made an informed choice. Go you

 

[Agony_Aunt]

In fact no. I would gladly have both playable as normal game SC and ED at same time on my computer. But well that is not going to happen. Likely SC will never be published, or it is published as "minimum viable product" meaning extremely buggy and with very sparse features.

Sorry, you must have missed the parody.

Its a common phrase amongst backers to say how good it is CIG are taking their time to get it right and not release a buggy half finished game like (certain other games). They have been saying this for 8 years and we still have a buggy not even half finished (not even 10% finished) game, with years of development still ahead to even get a MVP out of the door, that still will not be a finished game (and a decent chance of being a buggy mess to boot).

Its rather funny.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

Store Citizen: 15-20x worse than you are used to.

It just goes to show how well the disinformation is working out concerning SC

I played it when it was released, having completely ignored the hype and drama around it. It was a decent survival game. More importantly it was stable, without major bugs, or silly mechanics. It was not a beta. It was maybe incomplete relative to the hype and promises, but when considered as a finished product of its own it was decent and could be called a complete game.
That much cannot be said of SC. The core game engine is broken. Major engine related bugs have been there for the most part of 8 years. They wont be fixed, ever. If it reaches "release" status anytime before 2030 (which i doubt), it will still carry all these major flaws.

NMS is merely the aperitif before the fudge cluster that will be Star Citizen release day.

 

[Asp Explorer]

INMS is merely the aperitif before the fudge cluster that will be Star Citizen release day.

I don't believe there will be a Star Citizen release day.

After all you can "already play Alpha something" said Genuine Roberts - years ago.

Without a game.

 

[ECity]

Correct. There won't be a release because they can't do the MMO part. So they create empty, pretty set pieces like New Babbage to sucker more people out of their money, while they continually push the real MMO engineering into the distant future.

 

[Viajero]

How much has the average player invested in playing ED in the past 6 years. Personally, I have a PS4 copy $60.00 not to mention 20 plus for cosmetics I spent. I have an Xbox copy another $60.00 not to mention 20 more for cosmetics, and a both a steam copy and an Frontier copy one of which was only $40 the other was $60 not to mention again, the 40 and more cosmetics. Do the math and that's $300 plus in a game that according to David ten year plan, isn't finished yet. I've got a whopping $150.00 in SC. And considering my play style, and the number of hours I will play, that's pretty cheap.

Games do get expensive if you buy them on every available format, you do realise you don't have to you know? And you never had to buy a seperate Steam version, you could apply for a key from Frontier if I remember correctly.

Sorry, but this is exactly the sort of rubbish that SC fans have been churning out for years now, you would have to actually pay me to endure that "game" for any length of time.

Not only that. Another of the key differences aswell in terms of how the money is spent is that all those items bought in different platforms are actually released and working products, games and skins and all and where "what you see is what you get". The buyer is actually using them all and "amortizing" them all as expected. Whereas SC, SQ42 and all the jpegs sold on the side are still, 8-9 years after, nowhere near finalized products in any sense of the word; a large number of those jpegs are not even in the alpha at all yet, and wont be for many years.

It is one thing to spend money in a number of very real, off the shelf, but similar garden tool sets for both my main residence and my summer cottage that I will be actually using to maintain my garden(s); and another very different to "pledge" money now into a garden tool set someone is still currently designing and claiming they will be the best damned garden tools set ever in 5 years from now. Especially when whatever he has been able to produce so far breaks just by looking at it, and after the 5 years he claims he may need another 5.

There is a very fundamental fallacy and comprehension mistake at play here if we try to seriously compare money spent in non guaranteed, non existent, future products and dreams; with money spent in actually released, reviewed and real products that we can actually use.

 

[PiLhEaD]

.....The Calders will want their RoE. And the credits screen for Theatres of War will be interesting to read.

Will the credits include the SC commandos for funding ToW?

Apart from suspending any scintilla of ethics, isn't what they have done here, erm, straightforwardly illegal? Or am I missing something?

 

[Skizomeuh]

If there's something I'm quite sure of regarding CIG's top management, it's that there's at the very least one person who knows and masters what he's doing. And it's Ortwin.

 

[PiLhEaD]

Redlir coming in for a landing with valuable and volatile quantanium that he mined...

Oh my gosh - it's unbelievable/depressing/distressing to see (and hear) the many reports.

This is what 8+ years and 300M gets you with Genuine Cobblers at the helm.

What a dreadful waste.

 

[PiLhEaD]

I don't believe there will be a Star Citizen release day...

Totally agree.

I'd actually go further and propose that there are positive disincentives to CiG ever releasing* the game - viz: once they 'release' the game they've publically accepted that what they've produced is all they were capable of; if it never leaves pre-alphabeta-spaghetti then it can never garner bad reviews; and in the mean time they can regurgitate the same old excuses and play the same old game of moving focus to and then from SC and SQ42, alternatingly claiming each as making huge progress whilst simultaneously being the reason to delay the other.

Why would you not? There's around three hundred million reasons to keep kicking the can down the road for as long as possible.

* To be clear, when I say release I mean that the game becomes available from a store other than the CiG site, e.g. Steam or GoG.

 

[AkenBosch]

How much has the average player invested in playing ED in the past 6 years. Personally, I have a PS4 copy $60.00 not to mention 20 plus for cosmetics I spent. I have an Xbox copy another $60.00 not to mention 20 more for cosmetics, and a both a steam copy and an Frontier copy one of which was only $40 the other was $60 not to mention again, the 40 and more cosmetics. Do the math and that's $300 plus in a game that according to David ten year plan, isn't finished yet. I've got a whopping $150.00 in SC.

The average player surely would not buy the same game four times, two of which for the same platform, in much the same way that an average player would not buy a commercially released, feature complete SC for more than the usual 60-70 £/€/$ a triple-A game generally costs at release.

Also, please everyone remember that Wing Commander got released in 1990, so that clearly makes 30 years in the making for Sq42.

This long saga of threadnoughts really keeps on giving!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

* To be clear, when I say release I mean that the game becomes available from a store other than the CiG site, e.g. Steam or GoG.

It can remain only avialable by CIG, nothing wrong with that. All they have to do is change it from being a pledge to being a purchase and to say "this is release". At that point consumer protection laws kick in and is can be critcised as a product rather than a dream of a product.

This is why it won't happen

 

[hairychris]

Not only that. Another of the key differences aswell in terms of how the money is spent is that all those items bought in different platforms are actually released and working products, games and skins and all and where "what you see is what you get". The buyer is actually using them all and "amortizing" them all as expected. Whereas SC, SQ42 and all the jpegs sold on the side are still, 8-9 years after, nowhere near finalized products in any sense of the word; a large number of those jpegs are not even in the alpha at all yet, and wont be for many years.

It is one thing to spend money in a number of very real, off the shelf, but similar garden tool sets for both my main residence and my summer cottage, and another very different to "pledge" money now into a garden tool set someone is still currently designing and claiming they will be the best damned garden tools set ever in 5 years from now. Especially when whatever he has been able to produce so far breaks just by looking at it, and after the 5 years he claims he may need another 5.

There is a very fundamental fallacy and comprehension mistake at play here if we try to seriously compare money spent in non guaranteed, non existent, future products and dreams; with money spent in actually released, reviewed and real products that we can actually use.

Indeed: all of this money that CIG is receiving is in pre-orders.

Once the game ships and on-going support is factored in can we start thinking about CIG making a profit. As it is they're... however many million bucks it is in debt to the customers at the moment.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Indeed: all of this money that CIG is receiving is in pre-orders.

Unfortunately, no. They are pledges. Take a look at the official pledge store. All you're buying is a ship to play in the current alpha, which apparently also helps with future development, and with the hope the game will some day be released.

Once the game ships and on-going support is factored in can we start thinking about CIG making a profit. As it is they're... however many million bucks it is in debt to the customers at the moment.

Unfortunately, no. CIG is not in financial debt to customers at all. As far as I see, the main "debt" they have to customers is a moral obligation to some day release a game.

For detailed descriptions of CIG's business model, refer to countless previous posts on this thread and the previous ten SC threads. It's a disturbing read.

 

[PiLhEaD]

...I have [four copies of ED with extras]... Do the math and that's $300 plus... I've got a whopping $150.00 in SC...

I'm struggling to understand your point. You have four copies of Elite at '75$' each and one copy of SC at $150.

And you're happy with all five both games. Well that's great.

Did I miss anything?

 

[StuartGT]

Indeed: all of this money that CIG is receiving is in pre-orders.

Once the game ships and on-going support is factored in can we start thinking about CIG making a profit. As it is they're... however many million bucks it is in debt to the customers at the moment.

Unfortunately, no. They are pledges. Take a look at the official pledge store. All you're buying is a ship to play in the current alpha, which apparently also helps with future development, and with the hope the game will some day be released.

Unfortunately, no. CIG is not in financial debt to customers at all. As far as I see, the main "debt" they have to customers is a moral obligation to some day release a game.

For detailed descriptions of CIG's business model, refer to countless previous posts on this thread and the previous ten SC threads. It's a disturbing read.

For multiple years Squadron 42 was a pre-order

Squadron 42 - Roberts Space Industries

web.archive.org

http://archive.is/Dtmu8

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Unfortunately, no. They are pledges. Take a look at the official pledge store. All you're buying is a ship to play in the current alpha, which apparently also helps with future development, and with the hope the game will some day be released.



Unfortunately, no. CIG is not in financial debt to customers at all. As far as I see, the main "debt" they have to customers is a moral obligation to some day release a game.

For detailed descriptions of CIG's business model, refer to countless previous posts on this thread and the previous ten SC threads. It's a disturbing read.

Pledges stopped with the kickstarter. Now it's selling something they just don't label properly. But it'd need someone to take it to court and sue the crap out of them. I guess in Europe consumers might have a stronger case maybe.
And yes, they are in debt to deliver what was paid for with all the online store transactions. You see, they might write up silly EULAs, but that doesn't change the fact that the law cannot be waived away.