limit max jump in route plotter (beyond just your cargo capacity)

[Maggie_Oz]

Math disagrees with you.

If it takes 90 seconds to refuel, that means you refuel 1.1% of your fuel tank per second. In the 5 seconds that you FSD cooldown, you would refuel 5.5% of your fueltank. If you can jump 4 jumps before you empty your tank, you are using 25% of your fueltank per jump. So, if we break it down:

Start: 100% of fuel tank
Jump 1: 75% of fuel tank + 5.5% refuel == 80.5% fuel
Jump 2: 55.5% of fuel tank + 5.5% refuel == 61% fuel
Jump 3: 36% of fuel tank + 5.5% refuel == 41.5% fuel
Jump 4: 16.5% of fuel tank + 5.5% refuel == 22% fuel
Jump 5: Call fuel rats.

Except that I am doing 4 jumps and arriving at my destination with 2% fuel

Although it never works out like that as there is invariably a bit extra to do to get aligned on the next destination and a honk or two to check so each refuel is a bit longer than the exact 5 seconds.

 

[Darkeyed]

Considering in that clipper you only get 3-4 jumps before you're out of gas, that just means you're splitting 90 seconds up across 4 jumps. that's about 23 seconds per stop. The FSD cools down in 5. So you won't just be skimming for 5 seconds and be alright. So across 4 jumps, that's only 20 seconds of FSD cooldown... out of the 90 you'll be spending scooping.

btw give me a sec im gonna build you a better clipper because that build is terrible hold please

 

[Ganogati]

Except that I am doing 4 jumps and arriving at my destination with 22% fuel

lol that's fine if your destination is right around the corner.

btw give me a sec im gonna build you a better clipper because that build is terrible hold please

Have at it, but remember the size 3 fuel scoop is Maggie's so that stays.

 

[Darkeyed]

so about your clipper look that cracked 40lys with a 4a scoop yet only 8 tons off the old build yet mine jumps farther scoops faster and holds nearly the same. does this drive home the point yet?

 

[Morbad]

If people need example scenarios where this would be useful, I'll give you two examples that my CMDR regularly comes across.

1. Long distance travel in a ship with no fuel scoop, or a scoop that is small enough to require significant time to fill the max fuel burned per jump. My Courier and DBX are good examples of this. They also have very little room for cargo racks in most of their fittings. The fastest way to travel while scooping, if you can't scoop enough for a max range jump, every jump, in the eight seconds the FSD cooldown takes after arriving in a system, is to have a route that takes into account what you can scoop in those eight seconds. This is not possible to automatically plot on most ships in the current system.

2. Rapid ferrying of combat ships from area in the bubble to another. My FLD can make two max range jumps, but five or six jumps that are double the distance of the average economy jump in the bubble. Going more than 40ly, but less than 100 or so, is much faster with a manual route than either fastest or economical routes, and could be even faster if the plotter was more granular. Yes, ships can be mailed, but that can take a lot time, so can diverting for fuel.

The problem and the solution are both quite clear to me, and I imagine to anyone who has ever felt the need to rapidly move a ship that wasn't an ideal taxi, or who has made a long distance journey in any vessel that couldn't fit a scoop bigger than the FSD.

I would add too that the time spent skimming a star is negligible, especially if you match it to you FSD cool down

Indeed it is. I can knock out a jump every ~44 seconds like clockwork, but while my Asp, Corvette, Clipper, Anaconda, or even FDL (if use a class 5 scoop) can take it's fill in eight seconds, my DBX and Courier cannot. They can also fit negligible cargo relative to their total masses, at least in any of the configs I actually use.

I use my Courier on journeys featuring thousands of jumps. A route plotter that did nothing better than feature a jump limit cap, or a cargo slider decoupled from true cargo capacity, would shave several hours off of some of these trips.

 

[Northpin]

I use my Courier on journeys featuring thousands of jumps. A route plotter that did nothing better than feature a jump limit cap, or a cargo slider decoupled from true cargo capacity, would shave several hours off of some of these trips.

The solutions are in posts #59 #60, but the banter that ensued after managed to bury them down

 

[Morbad]

The solutions are in posts #59 #60, but the banter that ensued after managed to bury them down

The mechanisms are already in the game, it's just that there are arbitrary constraints on them limiting their utility.

 

[Ganogati]

so about your clipper look that cracked 40lys with a 4a scoop yet only 8 tons off the old build yet mine jumps farther scoops faster and holds nearly the same. does this drive home the point yet?

Fixed this for you: again, she's running a size 3 fuel scoop, so that has to remain:

I use a class 3 scoop, on a Clipper

So you are able to jump 100LY laden with a total of 27LY per jump, coming out to ... still 4 jumps on a tank at 90 seconds to fuel scoop. vs the original quick build of 22LY and 80LY max. So you squeezed an extra 20 more LY in with the same number of jumps per tank and same amount of time to fuel scoop. Meaning my original math below is completely valid still

Math disagrees with you.

If it takes 90 seconds to refuel, that means you refuel 1.1% of your fuel tank per second. In the 5 seconds that you FSD cooldown, you would refuel 5.5% of your fueltank. If you can jump 4 jumps before you empty your tank, you are using 25% of your fueltank per jump. So, if we break it down:

Start: 100% of fuel tank
Jump 1: 75% of fuel tank + 5.5% refuel == 80.5% fuel
Jump 2: 55.5% of fuel tank + 5.5% refuel == 61% fuel
Jump 3: 36% of fuel tank + 5.5% refuel == 41.5% fuel
Jump 4: 16.5% of fuel tank + 5.5% refuel == 22% fuel
Jump 5: Call fuel rats.

Yea... my point has definitely been driven home for me. Thank you!

 

[Darkeyed]

So you are able to jump 100LY laden with a total of 27LY per jump, coming out to ... still 4 jumps on a tank at 90 seconds to fuel scoop. vs the original quick build of 22LY and 80LY max. So you squeezed an extra 20 more LY in with the same number of jumps per tank and same amount of time to fuel scoop. Meaning my original math below is completely valid still

no 46 seconds to scoop stop trying to uses the 3a it is to small when you can easily put in a 4a with then only change being a loss of 8 tons also I don't get why your hung up on on the 3a fuel scoop its was cearly the wrong scoop to be put in.... which is why i took the build and made it 100% better

 

[Maggie_Oz]

no 46 seconds to scoop stop trying to uses the 3a it is to small when you can easily put in a 4a with then only change being a loss of 8 tons also I don't get why your hung up on on the 3a fuel scoop its was cearly the wrong scoop to be put in.... which is why i took the build and made it 100% better

It's the one I said I use.

 

[Darkeyed]

It's the one I said I use.

I get that but the build i put it is literally better than your build lol it jumps farther scoops faster all you need to do is swap the 3 up to 4. yet gan is hung up on that it takes you 90 seconds to scoop to full but the build i just posted can scoop in 46 seconds and thats not even factoring in sip scooping
he is trying to pull a gotcha. but the problem is while its your build I have shown a better faster setup with the only difference being it losses 8 tons of cargo for half the scoop time which shut down the complaint that fuel scooping takes to long. he didnt care about all the other changes which was dropping your power plant size down putting all your moduals to d rate since you had e rated. no all he cared was I swapped to a better scoop that fit better as cargo haul build.

 

[Ganogati]

I get that but the build i put it is literally better than your build lol it jumps farther scoops faster all you need to do is swap the 3 up to 4. yet gan is hung up on that it takes you 90 seconds to scoop to full but the build i just posted can scoop in 46 seconds and thats not even factoring in sip scooping
he is trying to pull a gotcha. but the problem is while its your build I have shown a better faster setup with the only difference being it losses 8 tons of cargo for half the scoop time which shut down the complaint that fuel scooping takes to long. he didnt care about all the other changes which was dropping your power plant size down putting all your moduals to d rate since you had e rated. no all he cared was I swapped to a better scoop that fit better as cargo haul build.

Trying to pull a gotcha?

A) That's literally what she said she uses. That was the point of her post saying that she uses it.
B) Your idea of using a class 4 fuels coop over a class 3 is not superior to hers by any circumstance. You are giving up 8 more slots which can amount to more than 9 million extra credits. She chose to sit at a star for 45 extra seconds in order to gain 9 million credits. That makes her idea superior.
C) All the other changes you made amounted to a 20LY extra jump range that literally just brought your build in line with my original math of refueling every 4 jumps. Even your original class 4 build had you jumping at 40LY laden at a max of 120LY Laden... that's 3 jumps! before you scoop! But look: if you want a pat on the back for it all, I'll be happy to give you one. It's a good build, man. It is really is. I'd go with her fuel scoop, but the rest is solid.

But most important of all is that none of this, not one little bit, gives even a hint of a reason as to why it somehow render's OP's suggestion moot as to allow us to have more control over jump routes built into the game instead of having to use external websites and manual plotting. The rest of us are saying "I'd like to keep that extra 9 to 20 million credits that the class 3 or class 4 fuel scoop would take away, and get there in 6-8 jumps. My ship can already do it, but the router just won't plot me that course!" At the moment, our only way to plot that route is to either manually do it via eyeballing the routes, plot it via an external website, or use the route plan that turns that 4 jumps into 30+.

I'm don't understand the pushback. At all. I don't get it. For the absolute life of me, I cannot begin to fathom how supporting an idea that is so simple and so unobtrusive, and barely constitutes an actual change to the system, somehow turned into some kind of a "I'm better than you!" contest.

At this point we're just going around in circles, so I'll concede. When I first saw this post, I saw it as just a simple QoL thing since we have external websites that will let us do this manually, and at the end of the day its not the end of the world if it never happens. I thought it would be nice to have, but if it would cause that much turmoil to others then it's probably not worth adding.

 

[Darkeyed]

But most important of all is that none of this, not one little bit, gives even a hint of a reason as to why it somehow render's OP's suggestion moot as to allow us to have more control over jump routes built into the game instead of having to use external websites and manual plotting. The rest of us are saying "I'd like to keep that extra 9 to 20 million cre.

ok first of in a trade ship your 1 ton is not equal to 1 million since your have to factor in buy and seling cost 8 tons really doesnt scratch your bottom line. now for mining and this is really gonna cook your goose you already have slots that are not dedicated to cargo ie your limpet controllers and your refinery
mining form and transport form but please do tell me where im loosing cargo space, we all know were to mine LTD everyone familiar with which ring to go to want to know whats close to there?a station where you can stage parts and once you get the hang of it quick swapping is insanely fast meaning you can easly make up the time sip scooping

edit just to go whole hog on you I got on elite and went out and tested how long it takes my ship to refuel after a single max range jump care to guess? 10 seconds... are you honestly gonna sit here and say that 10 seconds is to slow you can literally refuel as you swing around the star to the next jump in line.

 

[Tjago]

Well... one way would be to simply have a box to enter max jump range in light years. but this will be a bit crude and not very useful.
Or to go the technical way and put a limit on max fuel usage (that i'd say it will be more useful in calculating ranges based on available fuel)

For example, my armed exploration conda does 69 ly per 8t fuel - that's 4 jumps on a full tank and it means about max range 280ly

But it will do close to 40 ly per jump if limited to 2.4 tons of fuel per jump, which means more than 500 ly range.
And if i could limit the fuel usage to 1.6 tons per jump, it will do 33 ly jumps with a total range of 660 light years.
Or, using only 0.8t per jump will mean jumps of 25 ly and a total range of over 1000 light years.

Spoiler

Calculus Fuel Consumption

FuelConsumedPerJump = LinearConstant * 0.001 * ( Distance * ShipMass / FSDOptimalMass ) ^ PowerConstant

FuelConsumedPerJump = Exactly what it says, in Tons.
LinearConstant = This is a number that depends only upon the Rating (not Class) of the Frame Shift Drive.
A: 12
B: 10
C: 8
D: 10
E: 11
Distance = The distance to be jumped, in light years.
ShipMass = The mass of the entire ship and its contents in Tons, including cargo and fuel, before fuel is removed for the hyperspace jump.
FSDOptimalMass = Whatever number the Outfitters reports for the Frame Shift Drive, in Tons. The mass of the ship can exceed this value.
PowerConstant = This is a number that depends only upon the Class (not Rating) of the Frame Shift Drive.
2: 2.00
3: 2.15
4: 2.30
5: 2.45
6: 2.60
7: 2.75
8: 2.90

credits here
SPOILER]

edit: ninjaed by @Ganogati but cheers anyway, i forgot where i picked the formula, but i added the credits in the spoilers

I really like this version of the request. Being able to put in a maximum fuel tonnage would be a huge help. Our ships are capable of flying so far but the way the plotter sets the routes has us just throwing fuel away, so we can’t get nearly the range. I really hate that.

 

[Tjago]

At this point we're just going around in circles, so I'll concede. When I first saw this post, I saw it as just a simple QoL thing since we have external websites that will let us do this manually, and at the end of the day its not the end of the world if it never happens. I thought it would be nice to have, but if it would cause that much turmoil to others then it's probably not worth adding.

It would be really cool if one of the third party route planners could have its route imported into ED since they are generally a lot better and more flexible. Like Edsm or something. It’s annoying to have to type every single one over from the computer or phone to the PS4, but like previously said being able to have that extra cargo rack is just so nice.

Does PC side have anything that can do that? Import the routes into ED?

 

[VerticalBlank]

It would be really cool if one of the third party route planners could have its route imported into ED since they are generally a lot better and more flexible. Like Edsm or something. It’s annoying to have to type every single one over from the computer or phone to the PS4, but like previously said being able to have that extra cargo rack is just so nice.

Does PC side have anything that can do that? Import the routes into ED?

Not as such, but there are some tools that will put the next system name on the clipboard for you so you can simply paste it into the galaxy map. It's a god-send for using Spansh in VR.

 

[Legarth]

I was thinking this when I did my colonia trip. Using Spanch I just set my jump range to 10% or so lower than it actually is and saved me loads of sooping.

 

[Ganogati]

I was thinking this when I did my colonia trip. Using Spanch I just set my jump range to 10% or so lower than it actually is and saved me loads of sooping.

It would be awesome if there was like a reverse-Journal for letting an application inject routes into the game. While the in-game route plotter is pretty limited in its usefulness, player created ones have been pretty awesome and we could probably make some really amazing options. The biggest issue is how cumbersome it is to continually plot the next jump in route; especially if you're in VR.