General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Ian Skippy]

Being at home does come with a privilege, wow, how sensitive the Western world has become.

You do understand many non-caucasian families have been 'at home' here for generations, right?

While the Western world owes a lot to the rest of the world in many ways, being of different race or culture, it is still by far the easiest in the West. Try your luck in Japan as an immigrant... or why the rich Gulf states are not welcoming Syrian migrants?
It would be also nice if people that spam hashtags would remember the nameless George Floyds in Xinjiang as well, as well as remember the genocide that happened in Burma - just to name a few recent events.

You seem to be making the exact mistake I pointed out. Being privileged is not an insult. Yes, there are many forms of privileges. Yes, there are many injustices in other parts of the world. None of that in any sense distracts from a very real injustice that exists in our part of the world. I have very little influence as to what happens in Xinjiang or Burma, but I wish them all the best. No idea why you pretend injustices elsewhere in any way distracts from the obvious need to fix injustices in our own communities.

 

[Morbad]

I agree it is worse when the police fail, but at least there is some accountability and change, whereas in the other direction there's very little accountibility and very little if any change...maybe the problem is more complicated than just the police?

Police habitually get away with acts that would land almost anyone else in major physical or legal trouble, and minorities in particular receive harsher enforcement and less protection from criminal justice systems. It's the relative lack of accountability for police that is one of the major factors in anti-police sentiment.

The majority of police fullfill their responsibilities and more, many go above and beyond what is humanly acceptable, if you watch TV shows about the police and you see what they have to do and the often apalling abuse they suffer from those they are attempting to control and arrest.......well I'd say police do a lot better job at controlling themselves than the general population do.

That's what they signed up for and if they can't both control themselves and effectively police their own, they shouldn't be allowed to have authority over anyone else.

Statistically more whites are killed by non whites than other races?

Not anywhere I'm familiar with. In general most crimes, including homicides, are overwhelmingly committed by individuals of the same race as the victim...because that's who people tend to know and live in proximity to.

No-one protests like this when whites are killed (and LOT's are).

They are protesting like this right now.

When you have racial problems neither side is completely guilty and neither side is completely innocent. Ironically too many are treating racial problems as black or white, and if your'e not on one side or the other you are guilty by association.

The only sides of relevance here are those who acknowledge that systemic biases are real problems, and those that don't see what the fuss is about.

Because Covid 19 has killed more in the US in a few months than decades of racially motivated killings.

That you think these protests are over 'racially motivated killings' is so far off the mark that I'm not even sure where to begin.

The reason I seem dismissive of your points is because they are largely off-topic whataboutsims that have little bearing on the issues behind these events. You still seem to be failing to distinguish individual from systemic racism, and are viewing this as some kind of black vs. white problem, when that's never been the crux of the issue.

Some of the black lives matter peeps have said themselves what they really mean is blacklivesmatter (as well) or (too)

This should be a given. BLM, was never supposed to be a statement of racist pride or superiority, but a cry for an equal shot at life.

But the above doesn't change the validity/legitimacy of the argument now against huge adversarial outdoor gatherings right now in the midst of a pandemic which we are in theory at least starting to get under control.

If there were better ways to get things changed, they'd be used. Ten days of protests in the streets, where they can't be ignored, has led to more promise of meaningful change than the last twenty years of business as usual.

It shouldn't have to be this way, but it is, because being disenfranchised and largely ignored is part and parcel of being a marginalized group. It shouldn't have to be this way, but it is, because the presumption that the police are the good guys has long been the default for mainstream society and without people seeing how bad things are, they'll just let these issues fester.

Most of us here, myself included, lead privileged enough lives that we rarely have to be reminded of these problems and can afford to view COVID-19 as a greater personal threat. However, viewing it as the greater societal threat, or thinking that the opportunity to be heard can be passed up undersells the significance and urgency of the issue.

‘White privelege’ is a stupid slogan. It just alienates people and makes some forms of racism, ‘less bad’.

It's not supposed to be a slogan, but an observation. Those alienated by it, or who use it to equivocate on racism have thoroughly missed the point.

That being said, while racism still exists, there is still work to be done. But I fear that the divisionist approach where we tend to fight discrimination by constantly grouping people in to little boxes "the black community", "the gay community", "the white priviledge" etc, ends up doing almost as harm as good, and it also reduces people to a single one-dimensional trait that should not even matter (there is a reason why we never talk about the blonde community, or the left-handed community - because none of that matters - neither does skin color).

Successful integration will never be accomplished by carving divides and constantly putting people into groups.

Consciously or unconsciously, people label others. Society and it's structures also like generalizations. You can't address the mistakes being made by ignoring how people have been categorized, even if it's proving tricky to address current biases without reinforcing some of them. The whole reason skin color is an issue and "blacks" are even a group, is because society made them one, by exclusion and marginalization, by arbitrarily using their skin color. Now that they've been made into a veritable culture by generations of shared experiences, trying to pretend it doesn't matter isn't going to be very helpful.

 

[askavir]

Consciously or unconsciously, people label others. Society and it's structures also like generalizations. You can't address the mistakes being made by ignoring how people have been categorized, even if it's proving tricky to address current biases without reinforcing some of them. The whole reason skin color is an issue and "blacks" are even a group, is because society made them one, by exclusion and marginalization, by arbitrarily using their skin color. Now that they've been made into a veritable culture by generations of shared experiences, trying to pretend it doesn't matter isn't going to be very helpful.

If we can't even get past putting people into little boxes just because they share some arbitrary trait (such as skin color, or sexual preferences, or gender), how on earth can we ever possibly expect discrimination (and within it, racism) to disappear? The moment we group people in boxes we are basically saying that the people in each little box are inherently different from the people in the other little boxes, and this is the very foundation of discrimination.

If we ever expect to live in a world where all people are one community, we have to stop referring to people as "the black people", or "the white people", or the "gay people", "jew people", "gipsy people", etd and start referring to all as "people".

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

His entire "white privilege doesnt exist, I am white and my life sucks!" rhetoric is just plain silly anyway. Being white comes with privilege in the western world, without any doubt. As does having all four limbs, being of sound mind, being born to wealthy parents, or just plain being born in the western world to begin with. All of these increase the odds of a prosperous life, none guarantee it.

Leper Messiah demonstrates exactly what is wrong with these debates, and that is that many simply do not understand what the words mean. White privilege doesnt mean every caucasian is living the dream or having it easy. Institutional racism doesnt mean every caucasian citizen is (intentionally or at all) racist. Black Lives Matter doesn't mean caucasian lives do not matter.

Simply put: being born with two functioning eyes comes with privilege. It doesn't mean that if you are born with two functioning eyes your car won't break down. If your car does breaks down I'll sympathize with your plight, but that doesn't mean I won't advocate for guiding dogs for the blind. Blind lives matter. Being able to see and your car breaking down are unrelated. You were lucky with one, and unlucky with the other. Taking care of blind people is in no way an attack or insult towards those who are not blind, nor does it mean I'll deny you the rights to a towing truck to deal with your car.

It really shouldnt be that hard, but some people are in permanent defense mode when it comes to these issues.

Loosely speaking in a general sense from living with and seeing up close the comfortable western society 'the young and the less' that seem to be the ones who get into a froth over those things live, the problem to me is that a lot of folk who rail against it are doing so because they are being told to 'check their privilege' by those who are more privileged than them or generally better off e.g. a council-house white private (with all the associated experiences you'd expect) that I used to share a few jars with (and who'd done several tours and seen the worst that humanity has to offer) being told he needed to check his privilege by a perpetual student in her 40's who's never had to work a day in her life.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

We mastered this long before anyone had seen a non white person. It really is basic tribalism. Find someone a bit different and you have a reason to abuse and exploit them, without feeling bad about it.

Sadly, it's everywhere and goes back forever. Hutus vs Tutsis in Rwanda. Untouchables and the caste system in India. Buddhists vs Rohinga in Burma. <- the victims and perpetrators all look the same inside. But we have Surface Scanners, not X-ray eyes.

The anxiety that drives these emotions is treatable with beta blockers.
In my practise, they get used a lot for the secondary benefit, though I've had professional differences with protocol followers over it. Should racism be treated medically? I think the answer is yes, look at the societal disruption it is causing, and it increases inflammation internally too.

 

[Sysmon]

Sadly, it's everywhere and goes back forever. Hutus vs Tutsis in Rwanda. Untouchables and the caste system in India. Buddhists vs Rohinga in Burma. <- the victims and perpetrators all look the same inside. But we have Surface Scanners, not X-ray eyes.

The anxiety that drives these emotions is treatable with beta blockers.
In my practise, they get used a lot for the secondary benefit, though I've had professional differences with protocol followers over it. Should racism be treated medically? I think the answer is yes, look at the societal disruption it is causing, and it increases inflammation internally too.

Fear is the primary driver of human behaviour (the otherwise brilliant movie Inside Out got that wrong, but would have been bleak otherwise). It may be futile to expect the planet to suddenly grow up, especially when the midden hits the windmill.

S

 

[Han_Zen]

It's not supposed to be a slogan, but an observation. Those alienated by it, or who use it to equivocate on racism have thoroughly missed the point.

I know that. It’s easy to accept when you actually feel privileged.

What I’m saying is that it’s not a good hashtag. White underprivileged and discriminated people it will often interpret ‘white prrivilege’ as their problems are less important. This plays right into th hands of nationalist populist politicans.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

You do understand many non-caucasian families have been 'at home' here for generations, right?



You seem to be making the exact mistake I pointed out. Being privileged is not an insult. Yes, there are many forms of privileges. Yes, there are many injustices in other parts of the world. None of that in any sense distracts from a very real injustice that exists in our part of the world. I have very little influence as to what happens in Xinjiang or Burma, but I wish them all the best. No idea why you pretend injustices elsewhere in any way distracts from the obvious need to fix injustices in our own communities.

I don't want to go into a guesswork about the proportion of new immigrants and those who are there since 'generations' - the point is that equal opportunities have come a very long way, and the West is actually doing pretty good in this regard.

Don't get me wrong about the principles. But I happen to believe that a lot of the issues are down to deep rooted, centuries-old cultural differences - take a look on how different the integration of Asians compared to those from Middle East goes. This is a two-way interaction.
However, discussing such things in a rational way can't happen because it is outside of the narrow opinion corridor of what is allowed to be said and not. In the meantime politically correct stupidity reaches new heights...

Goldman to Refuse IPOs If All Directors Are White, Straight Men

 

[Factabulous]

I know that. It’s easy to accept when you actually feel privileged.

What I’m saying is that it’s not a good hashtag. White underprivileged and discriminated people it will often interpret ‘white prrivilege’ as their problems are less important. This plays right into th hands of nationalist populist politicans.

It doesn't matter if you feel privileged, you are. For instance if you are white you are far less likely to be stopped & searched on the street. You don't see that as a privilege because you just expect to be able to walk down the street without been stopped - but if you are not white you are far more likely to be stopped. If you listen to recent media of black barristers, lawyers, professional sports people, military leaders all talking about these types of incident then they are hard to deny.

Not convinced by the 'playing into the hands of nationalists' argument - nationalists are quite able to create discrimination and division on their own (it's kinda what they do) without the help of others. People who want to misunderstand names like white privilege will misunderstand whatever replacement you come up with - they object to the idea as much as the name.

 

[Ian Skippy]

It doesn't matter if you feel privileged, you are. For instance if you are white you are far less likely to be stopped & searched on the street. You don't see that as a privilege because you just expect to be able to walk down the street without been stopped - but if you are not white you are far more likely to be stopped. If you listen to recent media of black barristers, lawyers, professional sports people, military leaders all talking about these types of incident then they are hard to deny.

Not convinced by the 'playing into the hands of nationalists' argument - nationalists are quite able to create discrimination and division on their own (it's kinda what they do) without the help of others. People who want to misunderstand names like white privilege will misunderstand whatever replacement you come up with - they object to the idea as much as the name.

Indeed. I have honestly no idea why it is so incredibly hard for some old white dudes to have any kind of introspection.

Statement: there is undeniable scientific evidence of systemic racism in our societies.
Responses:
1) I like watching police shows on TV, and they are really nice cops!
2) Bad things happen in Burma too!
3) I met an annoying person in bar!
4) What about my garbage life!

It is absolutely beyond me why it is so incredibly difficult for some to just say:"Yes, our society, like any other, isn't perfect. Lets work together to improve on these clear issues in our communities together in a constructive way."

Its like a neighbour knocking on your door:"Help, my house is on fire!"
1) I've seen lots of shows on tv without houses being on fire, I am sure your house is fine!
2) Houses burn in China too!
3) I was once annoyed by someone speaking about fire!
4) My house isn't on fire, but my toilet is clogged!

Really? Thats the best you all can do? :/

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

Although not there now, I was born and bred in London and I feel lucky and proud of the levels of integration that that city has.
I experienced many examples of racism but it was only when I started travelling that I realised how much worse other places could be!
I think a lot could be helped via education - both to ensure that every minority has an equal chance and also to educate the others that under that skin we are all the same flesh and blood. It should be national curriculum to spend a year in another country.
As mentioned recently, of course blacklivesmatter doesn’t mean whitelivesdont -
I’m actually quite hopeful that these protests are much deeper than the one issue and could be the catalyst for bringing about many changes that we sorely need to help bring equality across far more than simply race.

 

[Morbad]

Should racism be treated medically? I think the answer is yes, look at the societal disruption it is causing, and it increases inflammation internally too.

If there are underlying issues driving one's behavior, that's one thing, but treating prejudice and bigotry as a disease to be medicated away seems like a way to abdicate personal responsibility while creating new forms of dependency.

we have to stop referring to people as "the black people", or "the white people", or the "gay people", "jew people", "gipsy people", etd and start referring to all as "people".

This is going to be hard to do as long as the systems in place reinforce these kinds of categorizations. The deck isn't going to unstack itself.

It doesn't matter if you feel privileged, you are. For instance if you are white you are far less likely to be stopped & searched on the street. You don't see that as a privilege because you just expect to be able to walk down the street without been stopped - but if you are not white you are far more likely to be stopped.

I'm in the relatively uncommon position of having been able to contrast my own white privilege with it's absence. I have a Spanish name, and the hispanic side of my family is quite dark (significant Berber and Amerindian ancestry). The area I grew up in was pretty well mixed, but still had strongly distinct ethnic communities, and since there were people who were way more latino, or more native american, or more whatever, I felt pretty 'white' (not consciously, but simply as the default majority) while growing up in the suburbs. I had clearly non-white extended family, but other than my father, I didn't see them very often. I had heard the stories of my parents and grandparents struggles, but lived in different, largely better, circumstances because of their past struggles. There were some racial/ethnic tensions in school I attended and in hindsight, there were some cases of where I was almost certainly being treated differently because of my name, skin, and/or features, but it was rare or subtle enough for me to gloss over at the time. Then, I moved out.

Twenty years, a lot of traveling (within the States), and many travails later, I've come to realize the distinction between one's self-perceptions, that are largely within one's control, and the perceptions of others that one simply has to roll with, or try to manipulate. I've been the whitest person some of the communities I've lived in, and far and away the darkest, most alien, individual in others. My grandmother in-law once referred to me as her 'latin lover' and that entire side of my new family still seems to reflexively forget my last name after almost fifteen years. I get pulled out of line for the full frisk at every TSA checkpoint. When I do something illegal in some areas, I read about blacks being arrested for it later. In other cases, I've been the first person the police have come to, even if circumstances made suspecting me completely absurd, just because I was the only non-WASP they could find. I've seen how non-visual cues can bring out biases in individuals and have learned, the hard way, to not give out my name in some areas, unless I absolutely have to. In other areas, I'll lead with my name and voice, knowing they aren't stereotypical of 'problem' minorities in those areas.

Anyway, once one has a taste of the spectrum possible, it becomes that much easier to imagine and empathize with the rest.

 

[metatheurgist]

take a look on how different the integration of Asians compared to those from Middle East goes. This is a two-way interaction.

To bring it back on topic, yeah, didn't take much to make those Asians feel like they didn't belong, just one little virus.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

With not a single active case remaining, New Zealand seems to have beaten the virus - or rather not allowed it to take hold in the first place.
How did they do it?
First, the country locked down quickly and comprehensively. The country shut borders as early as 19 March, while there were still fewer than 30 confirmed cases.
Seven days later the highest alert level kicked in, putting the country under a strict lockdown.
After five weeks of strict lockdown, the first takeaway food shops and some non-essential businesses were allowed to open.
Eventually, new infections dropped to almost zero in late April and the country was able to lift even more restrictions.

Fast forward to today and the virus seems to be gone. But Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has warned there will be no open borders for a long time.

- BBC

I am somewhat offended. After all, we achieved that weeks ago. Same methods.
No mention of it at all? Nevertheless, congratulations and well done, New Zealand.

 

[Leper Messiah]

As a matter of fact yes many of my family would be considered below the poverty line including myself. I home care for my mother who is unable to leave the house so I've had to contend with the benefits system for not only myself but also my mother.

Are we done now?

Apologies, but do you remember the tumble weed response in this country to the actions of a govt WITH Lib dem support shafting the sick and disabled? At least understand WHY I'm so angry.

Don't you think the main problem with the world is the unequal distribution of wealth and solve that and you solve most if not all the worlds problems?

 

[Leper Messiah]

Yes Europe were big fans of ethnic and religious bigotry long before America was thought of.

as was the WORLD. This is not a thing unique to Europe/white people. Too much of this is caused by the US centric teaching of slavery......so many yanks are completely ignorant of the real history of slavery. hint for any here....it didn't "start" 400 years ago.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Can we have a calm(er) discussion please.

On course, naturally ! You know the complicit relationships of our community.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Coronavirus: Americans drinking and inhaling bleach to try to prevent COVID-19 infections - study

Some 4% of those surveyed said they had drunk or gargled bleach solutions, and 18% used household cleaning products on their skin.

news.sky.com

View attachment 175931

It is better to have a clean Covid than a dirty Covid.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Indeed. I have honestly no idea why it is so incredibly hard for some old white dudes to have any kind of introspection.

Statement: there is undeniable scientific evidence of systemic racism in our societies.
Responses:
1) I like watching police shows on TV, and they are really nice cops!
2) Bad things happen in Burma too!
3) I met an annoying person in bar!
4) What about my garbage life!

It is absolutely beyond me why it is so incredibly difficult for some to just say:"Yes, our society, like any other, isn't perfect. Lets work together to improve on these clear issues in our communities together in a constructive way."

Its like a neighbour knocking on your door:"Help, my house is on fire!"
1) I've seen lots of shows on tv without houses being on fire, I am sure your house is fine!
2) Houses burn in China too!
3) I was once annoyed by someone speaking about fire!
4) My house isn't on fire, but my toilet is clogged!

Really? Thats the best you all can do? :/

Stupid phone messenger just posted half a response. Wait one.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Police habitually get away with acts that would land almost anyone else in major physical or legal trouble, and minorities in particular receive harsher enforcement and less protection from criminal justice systems. It's the relative lack of accountability for police that is one of the major factors in anti-police sentiment.

Some police not all, once again shall I judge all black by the actions of a few? Of course there's bad cops but judging them all is guilt by association, that's a bad thing or so I've been taught all my life, seems it's got certain "exceptions".

Ok let me try this, London in 1800s.....low black population.....who do you think was the main target for the authorities? Who do you think was more likely to comit crime. Did race have any bearing on it. It took YEARS for the poor in the UK to get any sort of education, what is happening in the US is actually the same thing that happened to whites for years...it's just that Yanks have a problem with history over 400 years.

That's what they signed up for and if they can't both control themselves and effectively police their own, they shouldn't be allowed to have authority over anyone else.

Some can't and I agree the changes shold be to mentally assess the police and ensure they are up for the job, thing is I've read the US has a problem with recruitment. I for one would run a mile from THAT job. If you want a society that has few police then unless the vast majority of the population can behave then that socirty will descend into anarchy, is that what you want for the US?

Not anywhere I'm familiar with. In general most crimes, including homicides, are overwhelmingly committed by individuals of the same race as the victim...because that's who people tend to know and live in proximity to.

These are the stats I found, just like you used stats to try and prove your point earlier. Yes it is overwhelmingly same race, but LESS so for whites.

They are protesting like this right now.

Sooooo no white person has been killed in the past few days?

The only sides of relevance here are those who acknowledge that systemic biases are real problems, and those that don't see what the fuss is about.

"Them vs us" then? Ok another lesson I learnt was that was wrong as well....apparently another exception.

That you think these protests are over 'racially motivated killings' is so far off the mark that I'm not even sure where to begin.

The reason I seem dismissive of your points is because they are largely off-topic whataboutsims that have little bearing on the issues behind these events. You still seem to be failing to distinguish individual from systemic racism, and are viewing this as some kind of black vs. white problem, when that's never been the crux of the issue.

I'm looking at comments and slogans from the protesters and it VERY much is a black vs white problem for them, if you have a problem with anyone BLAME the protesters. If these protests were less "polarising" you and I wouldn't be having this discussion.