Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

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It's clear that GreySix and MoleHD have found something in this "game" that they can enjoy. I note both are ex military, is that background something that factors in here?

ZX Spectrum was my first computer.
Can't speak for others, but had my eyes on the Star Citizen piece back in '13, when I was set to retire from the Army. For years, I'd wanted an online version of Wing Commander Privateer and an updated Wing Commander game, and that seemed to fit the bill, since the cat who produced both was in charge of the kick-starter. At the time, I put no money in to the project and just kept it in mind, thinking it would be cool if it came into being.

Years later, I downloaded and played No Man's Sky, but I was disappointed in what I played - it just wasn't what I was seeking. So did some searching for the kind of game I was looking for online, and Star Citizen came up ... ironically, found nothing about E-D at the time - that was in late '16. Had never considered kick-starter projects before, and wasn't really excited about paying money into something that did not exist, so did some more online digging. Alpha 2.6 was out at the time, and folks were having fun in the build, so I took the plunge with a $35 package.

One thing to know about me, and maybe it is my military background, but I never go into anything half-way or part-way - but full-bore. So over the years, I purchased some extra ships for the game, not even using most - but I thought they were cool and I like collecting stuff (still have a Timex Sinclair 2068 and Apple IIc Plus - and bought an extra H-D motorcycle I didn't need).

Whether or not SC is successful in the long-run (however that's defined), I've had a blast. Our org was online yesterday for an event for around four hours or so, and afterward joined an org mate in his heavy fighter to man his turret for some NPC missions.

What I have discovered about Chris over these years is he's a notorious micromanager, likely holding back progress by getting too far into the weeds and listening to the Good Idea Fairy ("Wouldn't it be cool if we added ...") - in effect becoming his own worst enemy. I've seen no evidence that he's a good manager or leader, and the haphazard development of CIG over time shows it in spades. Honestly believe he wants to see the vision of his game come to fruition, but don't believe he has the management skills necessary to keep out of his own way.

Enter Clive Calder. Chris made a deal with him, and Calder bought into the project. Unlike CR, Calder is a proven manager and accomplished investor, and he knows how to drive his investments to success, as evidenced by his billions. Once Chris made that deal, he more or less let the devil in the door, and Calder is expecting results. For that reason, I believe CIG is working fulll-speed on Squadron 42, which is what Calder backed, and that is why we are seeing so little movement on the PU proper. Chris announced to the world that Squadron 42 would go into beta within the next few months a while back, and my guess is that Calder is not letting that transform into merely lip service. Calder is bringing to the fight was was before lacking - purpose, direction, and motivation toward the achievement of a goal.

Meanwhile, push-back on Spectrum reached a fever pitch during the last disastrous free-fly, trollish behavior overran the forum, and CIG likely instructed the mods there to lay the smackdown on folks in reaction. That prompted an overreaction and overreach historically unwitnessed in Spectrum or the predecessor forums, driving folks like me away, and leaving almost exclusively "white knight" posters and their sycophants. Honestly, I'm thankful - was spending entirely too much time posting there, and the last couple of suspensions cured me of it, as I've decided no longer to post there, save as part of ETF commentary.

Firmly believe Star Citizen and Squadron 42 will be published, though unlikely to the extent of CR's vision ... even if only after CIG is bought out by a major publisher. Even with the buggy and glitchy builds, the alpha builds can be fun and immersive as heck, and I believe what they've achieved will force a quantum leap in how future games are designed.

And that's a good thing.
 
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For that reason, I believe CIG is working fulll-speed on Squadron 42...
And here we have delusions of backers just making things up, despite evidence.
  • CIG said SQ42 would release in 2014
  • Then 2015
  • Then 2016
  • Then they put up a SQ42 roadmap
  • The roadmap promptly stalled, showing almost no progress
  • Then they announced they won't update the roadmap anymore because of "spoilers", which is so stupid it is clearly a lie
  • Almost a month ago they announced a SQ42 video, which still hasn't appeared.
  • The only "evidence" put forth by backers is that SC is making no progress! 🤣
But this time it's different because "wealthy people are smart and principled".
 
Yes. Multiple gaming media writers also make the mistake of assuming the Citizens-counter is equivalent to number of backers, when it's actually around half.

The number disparity has come up twice now:

12th July 2016:
English translation: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4sifhi/interview_with_turbulent_and_some_backers_figures/
Of the one million user accounts that includes the Roberts Space Industries platform, 500,000 fans have already pre-purchased content in the game, which is actively involved in its funding.​
Turbulent say half of the accounts are backers.

1st May 2019:
Most of the people here helped to pay for the game’s development—on average, $200 each, although some backers have given thousands.​
Of this haul, $242 million has been contributed by about 1.1 million fans, who have either bought digital toys like the Kraken or given cash online.​

The Citizen-count just prior to the Forbes article's publication was 2.28 million.

As the Citizen-count currently stands at 2,712,167, the number of backers will be around 1.35 million.

Yes, something we saw the authors do in this recent post https://www.altchar.com/game-news/s...on-as-people-buy-4600-ship-packs-apTay1q7BQPv
The assumption always seems to be that all signups convert to backers when it's more likely that 1/3rd to 1/2 do, at best.
 
and I believe what they've achieved will force a quantum leap in how future games are designed.


This is one of the attitudes I find perplexing. What would you say about the design process is going to be transformative for the industry and widely mimicked?

The marketing & 'gamified' macro-purchasing, accompanying a dream pitch? Sure, I can see others looking to emulate that. But the actual design process... The take-aways I see are primarily bad practices that the industry seems to strive to avoid: The reworks implicit in doing full art during alpha; attempting to build gameplay mechanics before core tech such as networking is in place; giving engineering & design a perpetually moving target due to scope creep. Etc.

I’m sure from the inside to a player it can look like: Woo! Scale, semi-functioning physics grids, the seeds of greatness! Making hay with my mates in this cool ship I bought! Prodding the new things they added...

But I suspect from an industry perspective they’d want to see the final proved pudding (like say, with NPCs that work, persistence, finalised networking etc etc) before mimicking the baking technique ;)
 
And here we have delusions of backers just making things up, despite evidence.
  • CIG said SQ42 would release in 2014
  • Then 2015
  • Then 2016
  • Then they put up a SQ42 roadmap
  • The roadmap promptly stalled, showing almost no progress
  • Then they announced they won't update the roadmap anymore because of "spoilers", which is so stupid it is clearly a lie
  • Almost a month ago they announced a SQ42 video, which still hasn't appeared.
  • The only "evidence" put forth by backers is that SC is making no progress! 🤣
But this time it's different because "wealthy people are smart and principled".
The icing for me was that time when some jounalist wrote he played some S42 missions, only to have it revealed a year later there wasn't even a design document.
 
Even with the buggy and glitchy builds, the alpha builds can be fun and immersive as heck, and I believe what they've achieved will force a quantum leap in how future games are designed.
A change so impossible small that it can only be described as a redistribution of probability rather than an unabiguous shift in position? Yeah, sounds about right. :D

People will look at how poorly, incompetently, impractically, anti-pattern:ly — and for the most part outright not — designed SC was, have a quiet giggle, and thus shift the development of their games by the 5 seconds it requires for them to recover and go on with business as usual. Nothing that has been demonstrated by this project is something that isn't already fully known. It's exactly because it is all known that no-one in their right mind does it that way.
 
This is one of the attitudes I find perplexing. What would you say about the design process is going to be transformative for the industry and widely mimicked
What I like is the ability to wake up at a location, walk through an area to reach a vessel, call it up, reach and board it, walk through it, launch it, fly around, stop it in space, walk around in the vessel or EVA from it, return to the bridge or cockpit, sign up for a mission, go engage in it - perhaps with other players aboard with whom I can interact, land on a planet or other location and conduct dismounted operations, reenter my vessel, and then log off in the vessel's bed, able to log back in on that same vessel to conduct more operations.

All of that already works to an extent, and that's the design I'd like to see carried forth in other online games.
 
I've seen it in no game as I've described, other than Star Citizen.
We're talking about design.
The design you're describing is persistent positioning in a multi-user, multi-room game, possibly with an RPG slant.
If you want to see this design being “carried forth”, you can start by looking at the roots back in Colossal Cave Adventure (1975).
In fact, come to think of it, I'm having a hard time coming up with a game where you can't see it these days.

Or possibly we're talking about design process, in which case none of what you listed is particularly relevant — they're outcomes of design decisions, not the process leading up to those designs.
 
We're talking about design.
I've made no bones about the haphazard and unorganized development process chosen by CIG - indeed my blasting of it prompted the Spectrum mods to boot me. If you're attempting to kick that particular dead horse, you're wasting your time and preaching to the choir. I'd urge you to waste no more time on it, at least with me.

What I was referring to the gameplay as currently designed - thus what I wrote above, along with the seamlessness of moving from one piece to the other without loading screens.
 
What I was referring to the gameplay as currently designed - thus what I wrote above, along with the seamlessness of moving from one piece to the other without loading screens.
But that's not what you said. It also doesn't actually change anything because that, too, has been around just as long.
 
GAMEPLAY - that's what I like about Star Citizen. If you have seen exactly what I described, do post those space-based games, and I will check them out.
If that's the exact gameplay you're after, may I suggest Elite Dangerous? Or Minecraft? Or MUD? Minecraft, in particular, makes a big point of beds as a gameplay component as it relates to persistency.
 
If that's the exact gameplay you're after, may I suggest Elite Dangerous? Or Minecraft? Or MUD? Minecraft, in particular, makes a big point of beds as a gameplay component as it relates to persistency.
Already play E-D: It has loading screens, and in many ways is missing much of the gameplay I described. Minecraft completely disinterests me. What I'm looking for is exactly what I described above, and so far only SC has come close.

If your intent is to prompt me to abandon SC altogether, please stop wasting your time.
 
Already play E-D: It has loading screens
To the same extent that SC has.

Minecraft completely disinterests me.
So what? You asked for a set of gameplay specifics, and I provided. Whether you're interested in that gameplay or not doesn't suddenly mean that it's as unique to SC as you wish it were.

My intent is to illustrate that there is nothing other than the spectacular failure in every last detail that sets SC apart. And even then, some would argue that it's in good company with such other famous gems as DNF or Daikatana (but that's not really fair to those games).
 
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At this point, our conversation has degraded into pointlessness, so I'll cut sling.
Sorry if facts don't quite align with your hopes and desires, but that's just how things are.
You hedged your argument on an utterly ancient claim that has been thoroughly disproven every single time it has been attempted, and trust me, it has been attempted over and over (and over) for more than half a decade by now. Reality is not likely to change any time soon…
 
What I like is the ability to wake up at a location unless my game crashes at menu, walk through an area to reach a vessel unless I clip through the station/planet, call it up unless the kiosks don't work, reach and board it unless the entry doesn't kill me, walk through it unless I half-clip into its surface, launch it unless someone overtakes me to the pilot spot at which point I cannot kill them, fly around unless one of a hundred bugs with pilot chair/cockpit happens, (...)

I got bored doing that, you can imagine the rest.

Can I recommend Kerbal Space Project, btw? It has everything you mention and it's thousand times more stable.

Also I agree with Tippis - there's nothing groundbreaking in Star Citizen, anywhere. All of that stuff has been done and the only reason developers didn't put all the stuff together is that it's bonkers - you're far better off by developing separate games for separate people (FPS game for FPS players, sim game for sim players, RPG game for RPG players, etc), they are more consistent and in the end it's cheaper (no overhead from connecting them) and lasts longer (your game gets outdated slower as you can update it faster).

But that kinda needs common sense - something CI doesn't have.
 
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