Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[Alsteif]

On the other hand, why is adversity with the possibility of loss and setback seen as an inherent negative?

If one's idea of good game design is one where risk is non-existent and no one ever loses, then they're not describing a game so much as a permanent tutorial mode.

With piracy in open, the risk for both sides is there - the possibility of loosing your cargo/ships.
People like credits, because credits are your hp's in this game. The more you have, the more you can die and still have your stuff.
RIght now, when you are a prey in open, you have the risk - but there is no reward. While the attacker has a reward. That's the thing. No in game reason to actually play in open and be the prey.

 

[Juniper]

Yep. We can't punish solo/pg'swhile giving open more. Solo and Pg's should stay the same, while open shoule give some kind of a bonus for the risk taken. That's all.
Edit: ie: taking away from solo/pg's is bad.

So you want bonus points for playing in Open.

Not only would that not achieve what you want (more players in Open), but it would create a two-tiered divided game - even more than it is at the moment.

Sorry, not convinced at all.

 

[Alsteif]

So you want bonus points for playing in Open.

Not only would that not achieve what you want (more players in Open), but it would create a two-tiered divided game - even more than it is at the moment.

Sorry, not convinced at all.

Could you explain your point of view, please? I am not sure who would exactly care for the divide, tbh. The game will always be divided between solo/pg's/open. Why care about a mode, which one doesn't use?
If someone doesn't want to play in open, then that is perfectly fine.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Obviously. The point is that while open should give a bonus/reward to people who enjoy pvp content, solo and pg's should stay as they are, with lucrative existing and lucrative rewards, playing with either friends/choosen people or npc's.
NO one want's to take away credits per hour from people, who can't or don't want to play in open.
But playing in open - which has some risks to it, could have an incentive to actually playing in there, where you can be killed by another player.
Of course - it shoudn't be a flat bonus just for playing in open. The galaxy is way too large, people would just hide in systems. It would need to be a bonus to an activity, related to pvp/piracy/playing with people.

A bonus for Open is equivalent to a penalty for Solo and Private Groups, i.e. players in Solo and Private Groups would receive less for doing the same things as the players in Open.

The vast majority of Open has exactly the same risk as Solo and Private Groups - as there are only so many players and c.400 billion systems.

I agree that, if such a bonus were to be implemented, that a flat application to all players in Open would be ill targeted, for the reason stated immediately above.

If the bonus were to be applied to player/player interactions then it would be exploited - as Frontier discovered early on with the illegal goods scan > bounty > profit; rinse/repeat (which is why there's such a low player bounty limit). Later on collusion piracy affected Powerplay. simply put, some players can't be trusted to earn any reward for what should be contested encounters.

 

[Alsteif]

A bonus for Open is equivalent to a penalty for Solo and Private Groups, i.e. players in Solo and Private Groups would receive less for doing the same things as the players in Open.

The vast majority of Open has exactly the same risk as Solo and Private Groups - as there are only so many players and c.400 billion systems.

I agree that, if such a bonus were to be implemented, that a flat application to all players in Open would be ill targeted, for the reason stated immediately above.

If the bonus were to be applied to player/player interactions then it would be exploited - as Frontier discovered early on with the illegal goods scan > bounty > profit; rinse/repeat (which is why there's such a low player bounty limit). Later on collusion piracy affected Powerplay. simply put, some players can't be trusted to earn any reward for what should be contested encounters.

Saddly, true.

Doesn't mean we can't discuss possibilities of certain aproaches that could be taken when it comes to the treatment of different modes.
I am not a dev, and i dobut anyone in here is, right? Nothing we say or discuss will have any way of influencing how the game is developed.
In fact - the main point of this thread - to explain WHY people don't want to play in open, has been done. The rest is but a discussion about said topic and certain ways, that could maybe make people want to play in open more.
Of course, "Exploits" is basicly the second name of Elite. If someone were to call the game "Exploits: Unbalanced" I wouldn't bat an eye >~>.
It is true, that no aproach is perfect, and i can of course see why people who play in solo or pg's could feel worse, for not playing in open.
On the other hand, the risk taken by going into open, should give you something - otherwise, there should be no player who has a problem with other people playing in solo/pg's. Especially when we do have features in Elite, which almost scream "pvp" but do nothing even close.

The game has a large identity crisis. It has many contradicting elements, of which some cater to one group of players, and some to others.
Elite is an ok pve game. And most players mostly plays it as such.
Elite is an ok pvp game, for those who want to pvp.

And it won't change, ever.

But - that doesn't mean that a discussion about those topics should not happen. I would say that his topic is one of the "better ones", when it comes to this issue. No name calling yet, after all.
I do understand that everyone will differently about the problem.
I do not try to say, that my aproach is the only one and everyone else is not correct.

I do want a discussion about a topic, that's all.

 

[AtomicJuggler]

What you do in your game is none of my business. You do what you enjoy doing. "Do what thy will, but harm none" is the one true law of humanity we should all stick to IMO.

But I'm not interested in combat. Period. I have 5 PC accounts, and 1 PS4 account. They are all 'Elite' at something, and they are all 'Novice' or lower in combat. Even in my PS4 account, I'm out in the black exploring, thousands of light years from anyone most likely, but I still play in solo just in case I encounter a random idiot who would think it hilarious to blow up my shieldless weaponless ship that's rigged purely for exploration, return me to the bubble, and lose months of exploration data.

That's my game. Tell me how your risk/reward mechanic would entice me to play in Open. It wouldn't.

Did that really happen ? Even in the bubble, I rarely encounter gankers/griefers except around Shinrarta.
95% of the time players are ignoring each other .

 

[Reggit]

Since there is NO reason for them to go play in open. The risk outweights the rewards.
IF Elite had rewards for being a prey....

Some (most even!) people, want a challenge from their game - Elite gives people the option of playing alone (less challenge) or with other people (more challenge) - do you really want to reward people for being bad/stupid and remove what little challenge Elite has!?
Play for fun! If you don't find open fun (too challenging) then play Solo - FDev have you covered!

Well, i would say that the pirates at times also want to waste our time. We trade or mine, have our things we want to do, and then boom. Someone want's to steal from ya... it's annoying xd. At least to me.

Your in Open...your moving commodities - and any pirate is after you just to 'waste your time'? ....Or maybe, the Pirate is just...erm...playing their game? Y'know, for fun? You seem rather paranoid! lol

On the other hand, why is adversity with the possibility of loss and setback seen as an inherent negative?

If one's idea of good game design is one where risk is non-existent and no one ever loses, then they're not describing a game so much as a permanent tutorial mode.

Well said!
It's a modern phenomenon I think. Back in the day if you sucked at a game and didn't like it....tough!
These people seem to think their opinion of what the game should be - is somehow valid even while others enjoy the game as it currently is!

I enjoy Elite - please don't kill it!

 

[Juniper]

Could you explain your point of view, please? I am not sure who would exactly care for the divide, tbh. The game will always be divided between solo/pg's/open. Why care about a mode, which one doesn't use?
If someone doesn't want to play in open, then that is perfectly fine.

Well OK, maybe I'm missing your point here.

I'm assuming you are proceeding from the idea that there isn't enough scope for piracy (in either role), because too many players don't play in Open for whatever reason.

As I've explained already, I'd be fine with dropping all the modes, if there is the option for people to opt out of PvP completely. Just to make the galaxy more alive, and more social. I'm assuming also that this is disregarded by you because it wouldn't get you the victimstypes of players that you want.

There is NO in-game reward that will entice players currently in other modes into Open. None. There is no risk/reward in E: D, because "rewards" are as meaningless as credits, and the "risk" is you get blown up and have to respawn (But lose your progress). Which, if unsolicited, is basically griefing.

So... it just looks like you're just asking for something extra because you're special, or something.

 

[Juniper]

Did that really happen ? Even in the bubble, I rarely encounter gankers/griefers except around Shinrarta.
95% of the time players are ignoring each other .

It's happened. Quite a number of years ago now, and it wasn't months (it was about a week's worth) of data, but yes.

Now I've been out there for months, I sure as hell am not risking it to a random internet stranger's whims.

 

[WR3ND]

Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

More like the "pray" of a pirate to find a sucker for their dream of PVP content and/or illusions of grandeur.

Nothing wrong with that though. To each their own.

 

[Morbad]

I wasn't suggesting pirates only, but i don't want to play with the sorts of people who will blast people in a sidewinder while sending "git gud scrub" over comms.

And that's my point of contention.

Open is inclusive and doesn't lend itself well to people picking and choosing who they can and cannot encounter, except by extensive, tedious, and potentially disruptive use of the block feature.

 

[CMDR Tony]

Everything you do in Elite, you can do in Solo, PG, or Open.

That, plus instance blocking, is the greatest downfall of ED.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

With piracy in open, the risk for both sides is there - the possibility of loosing your cargo/ships.
People like credits, because credits are your hp's in this game. The more you have, the more you can die and still have your stuff.
RIght now, when you are a prey in open, you have the risk - but there is no reward. While the attacker has a reward. That's the thing. No in game reason to actually play in open and be the prey.

Perhaps the problem is the expectation of reward for every little thing that can happen.

 

[Alsteif]

Well OK, maybe I'm missing your point here.

I'm assuming you are proceeding from the idea that there isn't enough scope for piracy (in either role), because too many players don't play in Open for whatever reason.

As I've explained already, I'd be fine with dropping all the modes, if there is the option for people to opt out of PvP completely. Just to make the galaxy more alive, and more social. I'm assuming also that this is disregarded by you because it wouldn't get you the victimstypes of players that you want.

There is NO in-game reward that will entice players currently in other modes into Open. None. There is no risk/reward in E: D, because "rewards" are as meaningless as credits, and the "risk" is you get blown up and have to respawn (But lose your progress). Which, if unsolicited, is basically griefing.

So... it just looks like you're just asking for something extra because you're special, or something.

Oh, if it is seen like that - then i am sorry.
This thread is just a discussion, nothing more.
I don't want anything. And i don't feel special, this thread is just a discussion about why people don't want to go in open. It's not a thread about why people should play in open, or that pvp'ers are better, or anything like that. In fact: i play in solo/pg's. I don't play in open, nor do i pvp.
This thread is about one thing - as a player who doesn't take part in pvp or want to be a prey for pvp'ers, i explain why i don't do it. That's all.

 

[Robert Maynard]

These people seem to think their opinion of what the game should be - is somehow valid even while others enjoy the game as it currently is!

Quite - and the observation can refer to many of the "sides" in the debate.

 

[Alsteif]

I probably should have added in the first post, that i am not a pvp'er, and that i don't belive that pvp'ers deserve something more. Or that i don't want the game to change... it was supposed only to explain why, as a pve player, i don't see any reason to partake in pvp in open.
Maybe i wasn't clear enough >~>.

 

[Reggit]

Quite - and the observation can refer to many of the "sides" in the debate.

How about we all agree to leave things alone then?
FDev can implement what they want.
But alot of the 'idea's' i hear around here, would kill the game for alot of Cmdr's.

FDev said a while back, the majority of player's play in Open.
I don't think there's a particularly big problem....if you REALLY HATE Elite....then go play something else?

 

[Alsteif]

How about we all agree to leave things alone then?
FDev can implement what they want.
But alot of the 'idea's' i hear around here, would kill the game for alot of Cmdr's.

FDev said a while back, the majority of player's play in Open.
I don't think there's a particularly big problem....if you REALLY HATE Elite....then go play something else?

Yep, that's probably the best answer.

 

[Juniper]

Oh, if it is seen like that - then i am sorry.
This thread is just a discussion, nothing more.
I don't want anything. And i don't feel special, this thread is just a discussion about why people don't want to go in open. It's not a thread about why people should play in open, or that pvp'ers are better, or anything like that. In fact: i play in solo/pg's. I don't play in open, nor do i pvp.
This thread is about one thing - as a player who doesn't take part in pvp or want to be a prey for pvp'ers, i explain why i don't do it. That's all.

Fairy nuff.

Anyway, I've said over the course of several posts why I personally don't go into Open, and what might change my mind on that. Because an MMO should really be played with everyone.

But not everyone wants a total free-for-all, and that's why an optional PvP flag/toggle is the only solution that I can see. If they ever did that (and I don't think they will because I'm not convinced that FDev care enough about the health of the game to do it), it should only be able to be toggled rarely. Like once a week at most or something.

 

[2Karl]

I don't play in Open because most people seem to be awful. If the players weren't awful I'd play in open. MAybe I just haven't met the right types of people, but when I see videos of people laughing as they tear into noobs in sidewinders using their engineered FdL I'm reminded why I don't play in open. I've seen people make the claim that they only gank noobs because they're "bored", but if all the PvP jocks were trying to gank all the other PvP jocks and left the people alone who dopn't see games as a measuring contest, we'd probably get more people in open. I haven't been ganked in open. I've been shot and killed, although not wholly unexpectedly, but really , I don't care if I see another player ship or not. MAybe if they find the game so boring they could... go play another game? I dunno. In short, the problem with Open is people.

EDIT: Just to add to this, if people were FULLY RPing the whole time I would have no problem at all. Like if they were thinking "What would I do if I was a REAL space pirate?" - because a real space pirate ain't gonna waste their time ganking newbies, and would probably have deeper motivation, and then their victims could burn with rage and organise a counter-gank squad to take down the pirates and there would be proper in-universe radio chatter and legends would be born... but from what I can tell, pretty much nobody RPs in elite. So I'll stay in Solo where I can invent my stories and RP to myself.