Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[Reggit]

Yep, that's probably the best answer.

Awww....i feel harsh now!

How about - get into Solo - Grind some money (risk free) then come into Open to blow all that money on your terms?
A 10 million rebuy doesn't sting too much when your a billionaire
But, most of all - Have Fun!!! Do what you find entertaining! Thats the whole point of video games right?

 

[Robert Maynard]

How about we all agree to leave things alone then?

That'd be nice. I don't expect that it will transpire, however.

FDev can implement what they want.

.... and I'm looking forward to the possibilities opened up by the jetpac in Odyssey.

But alot of the 'idea's' i hear around here, would kill the game for alot of Cmdr's.

Indeed.

FDev said a while back, the majority of player's play in Open.
I don't think there's a particularly big problem....if you REALLY HATE Elite....then go play something else?

One Dev also indicated that Frontier are "well aware" that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP.

 

[Alsteif]

Awww....i feel harsh now!

How about - get into Solo - Grind some money (risk free) then come into Open to blow all that money on your terms?
A 10 million rebuy doesn't sting too much when your a billionaire
But, most of all - Have Fun!!! Do what you find entertaining! Thats the whole point of video games right?

It indeed is ^ ^. I never had any intentions of telling others how to enjoy the game~. In fact, this post was created as a response to people who were telling me, that i am playing incorectly, when mining in solo/pg's xd.
So ya, i sit on 2 bilions, will mine more while chating with people and using their carriers, maybe hunt goids. That's probably all there is to it. No need to worry about piracy or pvp.

 

[Robert Maynard]

In fact, this post was created as a response to people who were telling me, that i am playing incorectly, when mining in solo/pg's xd.

Some players can't accept that other players don't need to play with them to affect the game. This game offers each player a choice of who to play among, or not, on a session by session basis - and that choice precedes and may over-ride any desire that other players may have to play with them.

 

[Reggit]

....One Dev also indicated that Frontier are "well aware" that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP.

This is very true.
(honestly, I spend more time PvEing than PvPing - but i reserve the right to do both! )
And i have to admit - there is a good arguement for 'system security status' to be more meaningful.

It indeed is ^ ^. I never had any intentions of telling others how to enjoy the game~. In fact, this post was created as a response to people who were telling me, that i am playing incorectly, when mining in solo/pg's xd.
So ya, i sit on 2 bilions, will mine more while chating with people and using their carriers, maybe hunt goids. That's probably all there is to it. No need to worry about piracy or pvp.

All I can say is - I used to be YOU Cmdr.
As you gain money and experience, you may find different playstyles start to appeal? ....I wouldn't count it out atleast!
I look forwards to meeting you in Open one day Cmdr! (I promise I won't attack you - I'm generally 'lawful') I'm sure there's some fun to be had!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

And that's my point of contention.

Open is inclusive and doesn't lend itself well to people picking and choosing who they can and cannot encounter, except by extensive, tedious, and potentially disruptive use of the block feature.

Fair enough, so given the choice, i play without all types. Same with GTA. Friends only in my sessions.

 

[Monk]

Piracy in Open will never be what we all want it to be...So long as there are no rules of engagement around piracy there is literally no guarantee that the CMDR pulling you over is there to play pirate or to just to pop you for the lulz.

When playing the Discovery Mod of Freelancer, there were clear rules against firing on compliant traders...until they decide to run, then its fair game to do whatever you want to them. There were admins that would ban you for violations...on the flip side, similar actions were taken against traders who would combat log.

Now, that was a much smaller community where you'd have just over 100 concurrent players...so it was much easier to moderate...but it made for a really fun experience as a pirate and even as a trader. I had a network of pirates I preferred and would pay them and ask them to fight off any other pirates trying to squeeze their "client".

Eliminating Solo or PG won't fix it...FDev has to actively support piracy by providing a framework that makes it fun for everyone.

 

[AtomicJuggler]

With piracy in open, the risk for both sides is there - the possibility of loosing your cargo/ships.
People like credits, because credits are your hp's in this game. The more you have, the more you can die and still have your stuff.
RIght now, when you are a prey in open, you have the risk - but there is no reward. While the attacker has a reward. That's the thing. No in game reason to actually play in open and be the prey.

But the challenge IS the reward. Elite is (or should) not just be about earning credits.
I play both solo and open depending on the way I feel :

• When I feel greedy/lazy, I'll go for solo and use the 3rd party tools, all cargo racks (no shield or extras necessary)... Faster, no risk, plain boring but more profitable...
• When I feel adventurous and want full immersion, l'll go for open, max shields, NOT use all the 3rd party tools to find a market (where everybody will wait for you ) and plot a secure route to the market, be ready for interdictions, ready to give something to a potential pirate.More risk, less ptofitable but a lot more challenging.

A challenging gameplay is less profitable of course, but can be so much more interesting.

EDIT: Note than I have never done any piracy/ganking/griefing in the game.

 

[Tividar]

Right? What i got from my conversations on forum, discord and in game gave me basicly, that:

• for some people, the "experience of fighting for your life" is enough, and that is fine;
• for others, pvp should not exist at all, because they don't like it;
• for yet others, there should be only pvp, because they think so;
• and some belive, that the game is simply unbalanced.

And no one is wrong here.

Yep. We can't punish solo/pg'swhile giving open more. Solo and Pg's should stay the same, while open shoule give some kind of a bonus for the risk taken. That's all.
Edit: ie: taking away from solo/pg's is bad.

An extra multiplier on the sale of your cargo for each interdiction you survived (e.g. escaped or submitted and survived the encounter) plus an additional bounty collected at your destination station scaled for the difference in tonnage and engineering for each "pirate" you spaced. You'd still need to come up with a ship-building model that allowed mining vessels to arm themselves effectively without gimping their ability to mine. I'd like to see Subsurface Missiles and Core-Mining Charges as viable anti-ship weapons.

 

[Robert Maynard]

An extra multiplier on the sale of your cargo for each interdiction you survived (e.g. escaped or submitted and survived the encounter)

.... would be trivially exploited.

 

[Tividar]

.... would be trivially exploited.

Yup, almost any solution at this point has an exploit path. Things you could do to minimize the exploit path:
Cap the number of stacking interdiction events to per session activity (no re-loging).
Cap the multiplier to give a sell price no higher than the current maximum (e.g. about 1.6 mill credits).
Set the multiple so that running false-interdictions with another CMDR would be less efficient than just wing-mining together.

 

[AtomicJuggler]

I don't play in Open because most people seem to be awful. If the players weren't awful I'd play in open.

I don't agree with that statement but If you are more comfortable in Solo, I understand perfectly.

 

[[VR] DDastardly]

A suggestion:
Every player has a "Luck" factor which starts at 1 and can vary from 0 to 2. Each day you log on and play exclusively in Open, your Luck increases by a small amount, reaching 2 after say 30 days of Open only play. Playing in Solo would reduce your Luck back to 1 if it's currently above that. If a player murders another (i.e. fires first and kills them), then the murderer's luck goes down by perhaps 0.5. (There'd also be a "Duelling Mode" players could activate temporarily which would negate any luck penalties if both combatants have it turned on, to enable consequence-free consensual fights).

The Luck factor would be used as a multiplier or bonus when generating mission rewards or UC payouts, determining how many chunks an asteroid contains, determining how many materials you get from a pickup (instead of every pickup giving you 3 units), and deciding how long it takes for system security to arrive (in the case of a ganker with a low rating vs a merchant with a high rating they'd come quicker, whereas in the case of a pirate with a high rating vs a merchant with a low rating they'd come slower).

The results would be that people who play in open are rewarded so there'd be more player interaction, pirates are motivated not to kill their victims, and gankers get less money and materials and have to deal with faster system security. Meanwhile those who prefer to play in Solo would be unaffected (although they might now find Open a more attractive option than it was previously).

 

[Robert Maynard]

Meanwhile those who prefer to play in Solo would be unaffected (although they might now find Open a more attractive option than it was previously).

Unaffected - other than by the penalty for playing in single player in a game sold as being able to be played single player. Any bonus for playing in Open equates to a penalty for not making oneself available for PvP.

Then there's the block feature to consider - any Open only bonus would likely increase its use.

 

[[VR] DDastardly]

Unaffected - other than by the penalty for playing in single player in a game sold as being able to be played single player.

Then there's the block feature to consider - any Open only bonus would likely increase its use.

Choosing not to receive an optional bonus you've never previously had isn't the same as being penalised. As for blocking, the luck system would automatically penalise bad behaviour, reducing the need for players to employ blocking in the first place. I suppose on top of that there could also be some limit added to the number of people someone could block (to prevent them just blocking everybody and getting Open bonuses whilst effectively playing Solo).

 

[GreySix]

On the other hand, why is adversity with the possibility of loss and setback seen as an inherent negative?

If one's idea of good game design is one where risk is non-existent and no one ever loses, then they're not describing a game so much as a permanent tutorial mode.

IMO, the main difference is that while in PvE outlaws and pirates generally will behave logically (moving on if you have nothing valuable in your hold - or running when taking too much damage), players are entirely unpredictable - ranging from folks "honestly" attempting to role-play pirates to in-game sociopaths bent upon making miserable the gameplay of others. PvE isn't absent of risk - just more predictable risk.

So long as the risk remains almost entirely on the side of the prey, and penalties for losing fights for outlaw and pirate players remain comically insignificant ... just can't see the draw

... ouside perhaps thrill-seekers and masochists.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Choosing not to receive an optional bonus you've never previously had isn't the same as being penalised.

Choosing not to play in an optional game mode has not, up to now, offered different rates of earnings - that's a penalty in my opinion as players in Solo would receive less for carrying out the same actions.

As for blocking, the luck system would automatically penalise bad behaviour, reducing the need for players to employ blocking in the first place. I suppose on top of that there could also be some limit added to the number of people someone could block (to prevent them just blocking everybody and getting Open bonuses whilst effectively playing Solo).

I doubt that Frontier's reasons for implementing the block feature in the first place would change - and I'd not expect a limit to be introduced to satisfy the needs of players who prefer Open play - especially as the block feature exists because of multi-player.

 

[DaggerSnake]

I don't think that an improvement in Piracy needs to be an Open vs Solo debate. NPC pirate can easily be enhanced to meta levels. Indeed, they were when engineers came out to much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Piracy just needs some game design. Whether in OPEN or SOLO, doing a kessel run should have high reward, high risk and attract the daring. Make it a bunch of highly rare mats or as much as sitting and spamming LTD. Community Goals could have been a great place for challenging player to run a gauntlet through ultra tough NPC's or meta gaming humans. But it requires a fundamental aspect of a sandbox RPG game, incentive to play a role.

Balancing a game is on the developers. Fixing the modem tweaks and the block issues and anything else the community come up with is their job.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

For all I care, that Corvette owner can be ruler of whatever.

I am happy with my speedy space van!

Nobody rules this mercenary.

Unless you pay, of course.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Exactly, but look at it from a different perspective:
- both of those players could be annoyed at you pirating them. From my perspective it's a bit pointless - they played in open, so they should be prepared to loose. But still. You were in a better, stronger ship. You would be able to kill them both, with no trouble. And them? What can they get from takin on that risk? Chances are, that they won't go back to playing in open after that. Cuz why would they?

There are some players, who enjoy being in an alive, dangerous galaxy. To them, playing in open is fun regardless of what happens. IF they lose? That's nothing. IT's what they signed for.
Then you have players who play Elite as a game, where they can do what they want. (SInce it's being advertised as a sandbox). TO them, being pirated/ganked is the worst. SInce they didn't even add the "run, give up or die" problem of being pirated/ganked.

They could simply move to solo/pg and stay there. But then the amount of players that pirates can interact with, is very small.
Because to some players, being pirated or ganked gives them no satisfaction, no fun, nothing. The experience gives them onl negative feelings against the person who attacked them.

IF there was a reaso, in game reason, to play in open, there would be far less people who don't know how to fly, who don't pvp. People would play in open, if they had a reason to.
Right now pepole who play open are people who want that experience of being prey/hunter. And there is nothing wrong with that.
But it could be so much more. Elite would be much funnier, with more people in open.
And we shouldn't really demand one group of players to change the way they think about open. Since neither group is wrong.

In both instances, I was flying an iCourier.