ANNOUNCEMENT Fleet Carriers Update - Patch 3

Try actually reading what I'd written, if I wanted to insult you I'd have done a much better job!

"Full of assumptions.... learn how to play the game..."

Odd you didn't respond to the comment about Colonia... But I guess if you haven't been there, you'd have no perception of the difference between the 'tiny bubble' and the bubble... 30,000+ potential markets in the bubble, BGS state changes permit many systems to be in the correct states to give bumper sale prices for minerals, a tiny fraction of that number in Colonia with the correct states being reasonably rare.


And you accuse me of insults, priceless 🤷‍♂️
"Try being a miner not 'boiling the egg' in Colonia "

I thought you were accusing ME of being in Colonia boiling the egg-sploit rather than being a miner in general. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought you had put a comma in there, turns out it was dust on my screen (Seriously).

Yes I have been out to Colonia, several times, but no I have not lived out there for any length of time. Yes I am aware that prices out there aren't as good as they should be. And more then that, I think it's messed up that laboring out there doesn't grow the area. From the amounts that I hear from people mining out there, there should be about 3-5 times as many stations and outposts out there by now. It SHOULD have grown but it hasn't because AFAIK, it takes CGs to build new stations which Fdev has put a moratorium on.

That being said, yes a 40% devaluation is a crash regardless of how you cut it. And simply saying "well now it's as bad as where I live" doesn't justify it. Yes there are 30k+ markets and a few thousand suppliers, so yes the market's SHOULD reflect those prices and bobble up and down. IF Colonia was allowed to expand the way market forces should dictate, the same would happen out there, eventually, the number of stations, markets and sheer demand would cause it to move toward bubble prices. That's how it supposed to work. But as you or someone else said, Elite's market isn't a real market.
 
I thought you were accusing ME of being in Colonia boiling the egg-sploit rather than being a miner in general. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought you had put a comma in there, turns out it was dust on my screen (Seriously).
That broke out a big smile and a chuckle :ROFLMAO: No worries, but thanks anyway.

Yes, dropping overnight from prices that have been pretty stable (and today at least supply does make an even bigger difference) is a pain, but other markets will be in the right state, assuming you can find them and demand hasn't already been met.

I go mining when I need a quick credits boost, it was 'very nice' when regardless of quantity prices stayed high as I could do an hour and be set up for whatever I needed at the time. I did go out for an hour before the latest patch and again after, it wasn't amusing to not be able to find hotspot content and even less so to go to a nearby system to sell the 20t LTD I'd picked up in the VO hotspot (after selling the 28t of Tritium locally) and having 0 demand and a price 300k lower than that on the Carcosa market board - that said it was still over 600k / ton so considerably more than I'd seen recently.

Colonia really does need to 'expand' (without the inevitable Superpower influence) and get out of the laconic rut it is in, but that is a different political fish that doesn't need frying here :)

ETA: My apologies too - I wasn't out to antagonise you, perhaps my wording wasn't perfect either ;)
 
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Just had my best ever VO mining run. 168t in 1 hour and 40 mins. Would have been quicker, but I messed up one rock and overcooked it. At the current price of 1.3 mil a ton not a bad return. Not as good as the 500t an hour 1.7 mil a ton LTD boom, but I do it for the fun not the cash.
 
On a different (non-mining) note, has anyone noticed a substantial drop in HGEs, or any signal sources TBH, since the patch? I'm in a 'war' system, population of 2.9 billion, and there's 4 signal sources. 1 convoy dispersal, 1 distress call, 1 degraded emissions and 1 encoded emissions.

The surrounding systems are no better.

Interesting you mention that - I have been bouncing around systems which SHOULD have HGE's spawning in them.........well usually they do........and I am sitting in a system currently which should be rich pickings, and there is nothing. Few useless signal sources and no HGEs. Might be bad luck though - but could be the patch effed something else up.

Edit: And as soon as I post that, a HGE pops up - ho-hum!
 
In my real job I work closely with a team of software developers. We never let them make decisions because whilst they are fantastic at coding they are absolutely awful at real life. This situation smacks of coders deciding what to do and not management.
For all the flack and constant hate they got; Mike Brookes and Sandro Sammarco were an asset to Elite Dangerous because they MANAGED the process, sometimes in the wrong direction according to some here on the forum, but managed and CARED none the less. As for THE top manager.... I believe David Braben has handed off ALL management and steering to much, much lesser mortals, having lost interest in his pet project (His general absence here has been deafening, and apart from occasional Twittering anywhere else, but rarely regarding ED/EDH/EDO). All IMHO. o7 😢
 
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Frontier is turning into the new Notzy regime. They are not interested in incentivising players to play, they are only interested in punishing players across the board. When players legitimately lash out against them for their broad stupidity and incompetence. They delete posts and fail to inform the user let alone explain their actions. This isn't the actions of a company deserving of respect, or care. Respect is earned. It is not demanded, it is not required, and it is not earned by devaluing your customers and treating them like garbage. Which is exactly what Frontier has done.

Actual markets do not operate the way they have programmed their BGS to "simulate".

If you go to buy something from a manufacturer. The price will change depending on the quantity. Bulk orders get more affordable per item. Meaning the cost to buy 10 is X. The cost to buy 11 to 20 is X-N. That continues on for a certain range. We are already forced to work in a Per Ton capacity. Which means we are way into bulk orders at this point. The prices should keep going down the more you buy.

The same is also true for selling in bulk to meet the demand of "Need" and then follows into the demand for "Want". As long as they still have not met their current demand of "Need" for production they would pay more for larger deliveries than smaller deliveries. Right up until their demand of "Need" is met. Afterwards their demand for "Want" will fulfil their future needs. This won't get the same bonus because they are now obtaining greater than their current need. But it is in their interest to buy up as much as they can even in this point because it is a reduced cost on their business. Both the need, and the want demands would be gaining a bonus per item and range upwards based on the numbers sold. Up to 10, base price. 11 to 20 + X in need or + x in want. This bonus would continue upwards based on the numbers being sold. Larger always being worth more than smaller.

Frontier instead have designed their entire game not anywhere near how actual trading performs in the real world. Which means they don't even reflect actual commerce. They built and dreamt up a background simulation that does not actually simulate anything. The space station would represent the entire planets infrastructure of business. Those demands of need and want. Instead Frontier has designed the entire game around the basis of keeping players in the game doing stuff. Grind grind grind. Use a smaller ship, with a smaller capacity to maximize your sell price. So if you arrive at a station to sell 4 times as much as your wing mate. You get a lower price. This is not how commerce works.

Look at the bugs that show up in the game when they release a patch. All of these things become identified with in the first hour by players because they actually bother to go into the game and actually try to do what they were doing yesterday. The developers on the other hand can't be bothered to spend any actual time in the actual game to do any of the tasks that they are designing. This proves that their developers have zero relativity to their players. It does not take someone that long to fly over to Jameson's crash site to verify if it is there. When players have to report something that they should of had more than enough time to do. This is literally incompetence. This is literally laziness. This is literally not taking your job seriously.

The British take automobile's very seriously. They often mock most manufactures for "Build Quality" when compared to British industry giants. Well Frontier, you may have some grand gestures here and there with in your game. But compared to other Gaming Industry giants. You are not coming up to par. You are making a cake, and then tossing it into a paper bag and wondering why it arrives broken on delivery.

Frontier, you are treating your customers like garbage. Your customers have been calling and clamoring for game "balance" in earnings across the board. Your entire game is designed and centers around only 1 single cornerstone. Earning Credits. Exploration, combat, trading. All of these in the end translate into credits. Engineering in the end translate into credits. Going out into the black to explore systems no one has seen yet. That translates into credits in the end.

Your childish knee jerk reaction to adjust prices on LTD's over a year later is how you make people angry at you. This does the exact opposite of actual game balance. This provides nothing at all for a foundation that other players can get behind and is not what players asked for and you all knew that from the start. You are just pushing your own agenda instead of actually balancing the game. You enabled tons of people to exploit, and make hundreds of billions of credits. While the people who have not spend every hour of every day hitting those exploits again and again and again. The people who played the game the way you actually intended are the people you are now hurting the most by reducing those earnings. It serves zero good for the entire game to do that. What people wanted from you on the other hand was for you to bump the pay on all of your other services in the game. Something that you are all cowardly afraid of because you don't know how to actually build up the other services to pay fair approximations to what mining was offering. Because you want to force players to stagnate in the game. You just want players to endlessly do something, anything, as long as it keeps players playing. You almost managed to make your ARX system incentivise players. But then you provided zero information on how to go about actually earning ARX in game effectively. You left it as a pure mystery. Just like many of your other systems you have put into the game. Take for instance the way searching for HGS's used to be like. At no time did you ever provide the information for the community to locate them with in a system. It was pure RNG if they even popped up. You never stated what the actual chance was. You never showed a diagram of where to look with in a given system. Not all systems are shaped the same as others. One system with 3 planets will not be like a system with 34. Look at your recent LTD nerfs. Your chosen language was incredibly complex and gave zero actual information that we could then relate into the game we play. How do we correlate and unknown against something that is known? Well, if it does not actually work as their notes claim then clearly the patch notes are a complete lie. Because the alternative would mean the only overlap that will count is when the center of each hotspot actually overlaps the other hotspot centers. The last time I went mining in patch 2 (Not patch 3) I was in an overlap at the center of a hotspot. It took me 43 yellow asteroids before I found my first LTD sub surface vein and it was the only one in that asteroid. Which according to their patch notes. I should of had a lot easier time finding them in the core of the hotspot being buffed by overlaps.

Look at your numbers. Fleet carriers got a lot more people doing things. Mining facilitated all of it. Because nothing else pays enough to afford to purchase a carrier in the same time frame. Now you have repeatedly nerfed it harder and harder to do the same thing. Which means you have supported the actions of the many to cheat, to exploit, and build massive numbers of billions of credits. Those same people will now continue to have their massive hauls of credits while everyone who didn't cheat, who didn't exploit, who didn't manage to make any sum close to the hundreds of billions other people have. You hurt us, the most. You didn't hurt them at all. These actions teach your player base to cheat, to exploit, and to do it as often and as fast as possible because you have no idea how to create content that actually incentivises players to play your game.
 
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If you go to buy something from a manufacturer. The price will change depending on the quantity. Bulk orders get more affordable per item. Meaning the cost to buy 10 is X. The cost to buy 11 to 20 is X-N. That continues on for a certain range. We are already forced to work in a Per Ton capacity. Which means we are way into bulk orders at this point. The prices should keep going down the more you buy.

The same is also true for selling in bulk to meet the demand of "Need" and then follows into the demand for "Want". As long as they still have not met their current demand of "Need" for production they would pay more for larger deliveries than smaller deliveries. Right up until their demand of "Need" is met. Afterwards their demand for "Want" will fulfil their future needs. This won't get the same bonus because they are now obtaining greater than their current need. But it is in their interest to buy up as much as they can even in this point because it is a reduced cost on their business. Both the need, and the want demands would be gaining a bonus per item and range upwards based on the numbers sold. Up to 10, base price. 11 to 20 + X in need or + x in want. This bonus would continue upwards based on the numbers being sold. Larger always being worth more than smaller.

Frontier instead have designed their entire game not anywhere near how actual trading performs in the real world. Which means they don't even reflect actual commerce. They built and dreamt up a background simulation that does not actually simulate anything. The space station would represent the entire planets infrastructure of business. Those demands of need and want. Instead Frontier has designed the entire game around the basis of keeping players in the game doing stuff. Grind grind grind. Use a smaller ship, with a smaller capacity to maximize your sell price. So if you arrive at a station to sell 4 times as much as your wing mate. You get a lower price. This is not how commerce works.

Frontier, you are treating your customers like garbage. Your customers have been calling and clamoring for game "balance" in earnings across the board. Your entire game is designed and centers around only 1 single cornerstone. Earning Credits. Exploration, combat, trading. All of these in the end translate into credits. Engineering in the end translate into credits. Going out into the black to explore systems no one has seen yet. That translates into credits in the end.

Your childish knee jerk reaction to adjust prices on LTD's over a year later is how you make people angry at you. This does the exact opposite of actual game balance. This provides nothing at all for a foundation that other players can get behind and is not what players asked for and you all knew that from the start. You are just pushing your own agenda instead of actually balancing the game. You enabled tons of people to exploit, and make hundreds of billions of credits. While the people who have not spend every hour of every day hitting those exploits again and again and again. The people who played the game the way you actually intended are the people you are now hurting the most by reducing those earnings. It serves zero good for the entire game to do that. What people wanted from you on the other hand was for you to bump the pay on all of your other services in the game. Something that you are all cowardly afraid of because you don't know how to actually build up the other services to pay fair approximations to what mining was offering. Because you want to force players to stagnate in the game. You just want players to endlessly do something, anything, as long as it keeps players playing. You almost managed to make your ARX system incentivise players. But then you provided zero information on how to go about actually earning ARX in game effectively. You left it as a pure mystery. Just like many of your other systems you have put into the game. Take for instance the way searching for HGS's used to be like. At no time did you ever provide the information for the community to locate them with in a system. It was pure RNG if they even popped up. You never stated what the actual chance was. You never showed a diagram of where to look with in a given system. Not all systems are shaped the same as others. One system with 3 planets will not be like a system with 34. Look at your recent LTD nerfs. Your chosen language was incredibly complex and gave zero actual information that we could then relate into the game we play. How do we correlate and unknown against something that is known? Well, if it does not actually work as their notes claim then clearly the patch notes are a complete lie. Because the alternative would mean the only overlap that will count is when the center of each hotspot actually overlaps the other hotspot centers. The last time I went mining in patch 2 (Not patch 3) I was in an overlap at the center of a hotspot. It took me 43 yellow asteroids before I found my first LTD sub surface vein and it was the only one in that asteroid. Which according to their patch notes. I should of had a lot easier time finding them in the core of the hotspot being buffed by overlaps.

Look at your numbers. Fleet carriers got a lot more people doing things. Mining facilitated all of it. Because nothing else pays enough to afford to purchase a carrier in the same time frame. Now you have repeatedly nerfed it harder and harder to do the same thing. Which means you have supported the actions of the many to cheat, to exploit, and build massive numbers of billions of credits. Those same people will now continue to have their massive hauls of credits while everyone who didn't cheat, who didn't exploit, who didn't manage to make any sum close to the hundreds of billions other people have. You hurt us, the most. You didn't hurt them at all. These actions teach your player base to cheat, to exploit, and to do it as often and as fast as possible because you have no idea how to create content that actually incentivises players to play your game.
So much this!

While I embrace the dynamic market, I agree it needs more balancing, as currently it's a "You better play at tick, else you miss it for the next 24 hours" design.
The market sure could make due with proper production chains, and it's a shame it hasn't been implemented from day dot, but it is what it is.
What's even more annoying is the bulk sale tax - the system ASSUMES that you will sell everything in you cargo hold. If the sales price would also by dynamic and adjust as you increase the amount you are selling, then people would have the freedom to rock up at a place with 500 demand with a cutter and 700 in the hold and just skim off the top and leave.

I agree the LTD gold rush had to come to an end, those who milked it, made a nice coin there. Happy days for those. New players will have a tougher start, that's for sure.

What annoys me most is more bugs with every patch that fixes the patch that patched the patch that fixed the update.
In German there is even a word for it: Verschlimmbessern!
Translates to: Improvworsen.

If you want player to spend/buy Arx, at least put something up there that is worth buying. The same fugly Pjs painted on are just not cutting it. You said with Arx, we'd get better PJs. Where are they?
 
I just returned to the game after a nearly two year hiatus. It's like a new game almost.

The fleet carriers had me interested until I made my first jump into an inhabited system. What are all these new symbols in the system map? Oh....they're fleet carriers. Some decommissioned. The rest parked. SCORES of them, if not hundreds.

It's like that in every system. You could walk across entire systems on the carriers if they were lined up nose to tail.

Clearly that's completely broken. The most expensive thing in the game and they're more common than Anacondas now, or so it seems.

Yeah, you really broke this. With insane mining payouts to buy insane ships, and now you nerfed it so badly that everybody has parked their ships and there's no point in mining for tritium that the ships need because there isn't any.

I want to know how you unravel this mess. l do know that I'd take another Sidewinder over a free FC at this point. I can make money with a Sidey and its maintenance bill is zero.

Maybe have some of the faction governments start offering to buy up the carriers at a fair price. Or take away their invulnerability and turn them into giant combat ships, but with a prohibitively expensive rebuy. That'd thin the herd quick!
 
I just returned to the game after a nearly two year hiatus. It's like a new game almost.

The fleet carriers had me interested until I made my first jump into an inhabited system. What are all these new symbols in the system map? Oh....they're fleet carriers. Some decommissioned. The rest parked. SCORES of them, if not hundreds.

It's like that in every system. You could walk across entire systems on the carriers if they were lined up nose to tail.

Clearly that's completely broken. The most expensive thing in the game and they're more common than Anacondas now, or so it seems.

Yeah, you really broke this. With insane mining payouts to buy insane ships, and now you nerfed it so badly that everybody has parked their ships and there's no point in mining for tritium that the ships need because there isn't any.

I want to know how you unravel this mess. l do know that I'd take another Sidewinder over a free FC at this point. I can make money with a Sidey and its maintenance bill is zero.

Maybe have some of the faction governments start offering to buy up the carriers at a fair price. Or take away their invulnerability and turn them into giant combat ships, but with a prohibitively expensive rebuy. That'd thin the herd quick!

Hindsight is a marvellous thing.
 
In German there is even a word for it: Verschlimmbessern!
I see your Verschlimmbessern, and raise you one Farpotshket. I have nothing against German mind, I just find Yiddish more entertaining. :p
Not only has this patch failed to fix the mining glaring balance issues previous updates introduced, things are arguably even more broken than they were before they started futzing with it.

The fleet carriers had me interested until I made my first jump into an inhabited system. What are all these new symbols in the system map? Oh....they're fleet carriers. Some decommissioned. The rest parked. SCORES of them, if not hundreds.

It's like that in every system. You could walk across entire systems on the carriers if they were lined up nose to tail.

Clearly that's completely broken. The most expensive thing in the game and they're more common than Anacondas now, or so it seems.
My experience exactly.
What's the point of an end-game asset when they're more common than fleas on a really mangy dog?

Not only is it ridiculous, it's breaking game stability and performance to boot.

Yeah, you really broke this. With insane mining payouts to buy insane ships, and now you nerfed it so badly that everybody has parked their ships and there's no point in mining for tritium that the ships need because there isn't any.

If the game had a proper dynamic economy, either one of those dumbass moves would have likely crashed it completely, and/or lead to inflation so rampant it killed the currency and the game with it.

take away their invulnerability and turn them into giant combat ships, but with a prohibitively expensive rebuy. That'd thin the herd quick!
An excellent idea, a worthy goal, and one that'll absolutely motivate me to engage with the game more.
If FDev won't fix the the carrier plague and the performance problems is causing, I'll be happy to have a crack at it myself. I doubt I'd be alone in finding that entertaining either.
 
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I bet half the people complaining about LTD mining being broken right now don't even need the credits or LTD's they're just stockpiling them, filling up the system(s) with carriers crashing people's games who are trying to get into the system(s) who genuinely need the credits. Can't wait for the reaction when the fix involves drastically lowering the price of LTD's permanently
Not too concerned about lowered prices as long as I can still find some to actually mine!
 
In response to the basis of "Fleet Carriers needing to be rare." This is your fault for thinking that Elite is about Elitism. This is still an MMO. They were stated clearly and explicitly designed that every player can own their very own carrier. There is nothing specifically Elitism about owning a Fleet Carrier and it never was going to. The fact that you have exploited (in most cases but not all) to be able to afford the upkeep of your Fleet Carrier for a decade plus is your own personal Elitism.

I asked for help in other threads on how people were mining over 500 tons an hour. Well, clearly the reason no one wanted to give me ANY amount of support to that question was because they were clearly cheating. Because at no time did I ever milk out that much. I hate laser mining to boot. Boring... Boring... Boring...

This is an MMO. End of story. It might also be a poorly designed "Space Sim" in other factors. It fails to have newtonian physics. It fails to allow ships to do maneuvers that if it were an actual space sim would be relevant. Good luck watching people try to dock with an orbiting station under newtonian physics with orbital mechanics.

BUT.... Elite does not "Have" to have those either to be a fun game. Being honest and truthful for things that you agree with, or disagree with is a factor of being fair and realistic. There are times when Elite can be a lot of fun. But Frontier isn't in the business of making the full game fun and entertaining. They are only interested in adding in GRIND mechanics to further manipulate players to "Play the Game". Not actually create content that rewards players for playing the game to incentivise spending time in the game. I could name a whole bunch of things other Games and other Game companies that have built far better and more sustainable methods to do the same. But that would require Frontier to actually care about why their customers choose to play their game and what activities they are choosing to do. Not just how many at X time.

Simply put, Frontier is in the business to be dishonest and unfaithful to its own customers in the long run.

With the current changes to mining profitability the costs of the Fleet Carriers need to be reduced by 60% to 80%. Their approval of cost was fair and reasonable with the profit of mining being well and understood. Now that Frontier has broken their game making mining impossible. That also means affording to buy the Fleet Carriers have taken a MASSIVE and unfair impact. This is how Frontier chooses "Game Balance" choices. They ignore all of the important factors, and then impetuously target just one factor. Ignoring all of the causal outcomes. This is not "Game Balance". This is how Frontier proves they don't have a grip on the fundamentals of what a game actually needs. They have to automate so much of what they do that they can rarely make proper balancing changes. Or they leave it up to the guy who can't add. This isn't a 2+2=4 problem. Because if it was, someone there would eventually misclick their way into that fix.

If you don't know how to fix your problems. You will create more problems just like you have now. If you don't know, you need to tell your leads. If you leads don't know, then they need to go up the chain. Because eventually, you guys are going to tick the wrong box and the outcome will be an avalanche of distrust and animosity that you will not recover from for years.

If it isn't clear. I do not trust Frontier. I do not have any faith in their ability to design a good game. I do not even have faith they know how to fix what they have broken in this last patch.
 
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