Meanwhile, in a parallel universe where the sky belongs to no man...

[Juniper]

I remember seeing a disection of kickstarters and it is common for funding to plateau. Funding tends to spike considerably in the first few days and the last few days.

This is certainly true. It's also true that the stats show that 95% of all Kickstarters who get > 50% of funding in the first few days reach their goal by the end.

However, there was a week to go, and the funding was not moving hardly at all. It was also (at the time) the biggest UK Kickstarter goal ever. When I say it was "touch and go" - it really was.

Enter DBOBE with his promise of "god like powers" and WHAM! Suddenly there was a massive spike at the £300 level (to be clear, the game was being "sold" at £20), which ultimately caused the game to be funded. I was paying really close attention throughout those 60 days. Even got into trouble from my boss for spending too long on it at work.

Nobody can tell me that these two events were not related. Nor can they tell me that on the back of that, many people didn't "jonty" their pledge up to the station or planet-naming level - on the explicit understanding that the game would exist & be playable forever (and not guided by FD's profit margins). I know this, because I was one of them. I encouraged others to do the same. And I literally watched them do it.

On the back of lies.

 

[Juniper]

Yeah, I am not suggesting FDEV are a saint . As I said before no company is ideal or perfect, and there will very often be gaps between sold and actuals. The point is the size of the gaps, level of misrepresentation (and related cashed in money), and the developer response for the launched product (apologizing and refunds or not etc) between these two cases at hand, as discussed above, is orders of magnitude different.

Nobody is a saint. That really isn't the point.

Your argument is that Sean Murray is an evil person because he "lied" in order to get people to spend money on his game. Never mind the psychology involved, you then said that DBOBE and Frontier didn't do that... ergo, they are "better".

However, that is complete nonsense. DBOBE did lie, and he did run away and disappear and still hasn't delivered... and he did all that in order to extract sizeable chunks of money out of thousands of people like me who believed in him & the game. Then he denied those people refunds once the lies were exposed.

It's not about being "perfect" or a "saint". It's about being a decent human being and treating people with respect. Sean knew that the path to redemption was to show the doubters wrong and make the best damn game he could. He's done that, and is still doing that. The latest (free) content patch dropped on Thursday.

DBOBE however has forgotten all about what he did, and made three other games instead... whilst E: D languishes in maintenance mode (and not much of that apparently goes on, since they dropped Galnet and community goals some time ago).

I am reminded of an Ian Bell interview on the net (you can find it if you google it) where he was asked as his final question "What would you tell your younger self?". His answer?

"Don't expect David to play fair by you."

 

[Cotic]

What you are saying sounds very similar to cases where a person makes the evidence fit their hypothesis. For a start it's almost 8 years ago and then there is no actual evidence as such, there are too many contributing factors to pin it on a singular item. The last few days alway see a high increase in participation. Gaming media puts out articles reminding people there's a week to go, 3 days to go, 24 hours etc. The company does media drives, new videos pop up, concept art gets revealed etc.

I'm not at all convinced.

 

[Juniper]

What you are saying sounds very similar to cases where a person makes the evidence fit their hypothesis. For a start it's almost 8 years ago and then there is no actual evidence as such, there are too many contributing factors to pin it on a singular item. The last few days alway see a high increase in participation. Gaming media puts out articles reminding people there's a week to go, 3 days to go, 24 hours etc. The company does media drives, new videos pop up, concept art gets revealed etc.

I'm not at all convinced.

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just telling you how it happened, from my own perspective, because I was actually there and I remember it pretty clearly. There was a lot of emotional attachment surrounding those 60 days and the aftermath.

You're right it was eight years ago. Still happened. Don't appreciate when people imply it didn't.

 

[Old Duck]

No Planetary Physics? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DAMN YOU SEAN DAMN YOOOOOOOOOOOO.

NMS would be far more appealing to me if Kepler had a say in their solar system mechanics, but I guess voxel programming non-stationary objects is difficult... Space Engineers suffers from the same geocentric solar model, it too being a voxel game. Pity, as one of the reasons ED often wins my affection over other space games is its superior solar system model.

 

[Cotic]

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just telling you how it happened, from my own perspective, because I was actually there and I remember it pretty clearly. There was a lot of emotional attachment surrounding those 60 days and the aftermath.

You're right it was eight years ago. Still happened. Don't appreciate when people imply it didn't.

I know you're not trying to convince me, I'm simply saying I am not convinced that is the sole reason.

I was there as well, lots of us were there but out of all those people there's very few (maybe only 1) saying that was the reason for its success
If it was so obvious and if it was so easily remembered you'd think more people would have brought it up over the years, perhaps there'd even be an article detailing the deciding factor for reaching their goal etc

Perhaps the emotional overload in the subsequent 60 days are to blame

 

[Juniper]

Perhaps the emotional overload in the subsequent 60 days are to blame

Perhaps.

It's not a topic I like to talk about, to be honest. Still makes me angry to this day.

 

[Viajero]

Nobody is a saint. That really isn't the point.

That was actually not my point, just the preamble and common ground leading to it.

But apparently someone else is actually trying his damnedest best to make it indeed the full main point :

The crux of the matter is:

1. Both CEOs lied

And that is precisely one of the differences of opinion and contentions here. Degree and impact are relevant (at least to me). To put it a bit more graphically, you can not treat and criticize in the same way a company like Enron who commited accounting fraud, with another company that simply incurred in a number of inconsistencies in its annual accounts (as relevant as those may be); and which is in essence what some of the earlier comparisons in this thread were trying to achieve. See below for more details.

Your argument is that Sean Murray is an evil person because he "lied".

Not arguing anything of the sort. Especially not qualifying anyone es "evil". I am just reminding us all about evidence that shows one developer sold and cashed in for fundamental elements of gameplay that were not delivered, and didnt even bother to communicate those cancellations any time prior, during or after launch (nevermind offering any refunds for it), with another that took it to the CEO to offer public apologies, plus refunds, for a very serious content cancellation (offline), plus an expression of intent for future content (space legs etc) to be paid for at a later date.

This is orders of magnitude different, but if by now you have not been able to realize it (or maybe just dont wanna ) there is not much else that can be said

 

[AndyJ]

I think the problem here is for those of us that suffered through the zero communication and left angry after launch without many things we'd paid for in the KS delivered, and were then told that certain things like multiple game save were coming later - so we didn't refund (frankly a game-breaker for me for a 'play your own way game') well we probably don't agree with what sounds like a sanitized "that took it to the CEO to public apologies, plus refunds" take - it was a lot messier than that and the refunds were only a reaction to forum outcry, bad press and potential action than doing the right thing at the time they 'fessed up what was being released. The original position was if you'd played Alpha/Beta up to that point, tough luck, no refund - even though you didn't know it was going to be online-only... and the only save you'll get. And don't overlook those further promises of those extra save slots which they reneged on too - I truly hope they will reconsider that one, it would help longevity & player numbers for sure.
Ultimately though, whether one game's delivery on promises is as bad as the other, I guess it's very much up to personal disappointment... I guess I'd have been annoyed with original NMS but in fairness they've built, and built and built on it.

 

[BDelacroix]

This new addition of space dungeons was cool. I have to say, however, I've done half a dozen of them and they are already samy. What is to be expected from proc generated, though.

 

[Leper Messiah]

NMS would be far more appealing to me if Kepler had a say in their solar system mechanics, but I guess voxel programming non-stationary objects is difficult... Space Engineers suffers from the same geocentric solar model, it too being a voxel game. Pity, as one of the reasons ED often wins my affection over other space games is its superior solar system model.

It's not a deal beaker though is it?

 

[Leper Messiah]

Oh, I do not think it is a blooper at all, no. Far from a blooper, dev one or otherwise (well, maybe the original review scores were but hey). To all accounts pre-sales and sales at launch were a resounding success.

The question that is going to kill you though is, given all the media attention if Sean Murray had done the right thing and publicly announce the cancellation of all or some of the key elements in that reddit summary (including multiplayer) and offered refunds as FDEV did for offline, would it have had the same success? Would HG have been able to develop 4 years worth of free content?

Now that's a more reasonable point. Still slighlty arguable but not so clear cut....hmmmm, It depends on how many pre sales were because of those elements ("key" is arguable as well, the key elements for me for NMS was massive galaxy...check, loads of planets to land on.....check, things to scan and explore....check, space flight....check (ok the weakest part of the game but it's there!)...I don't even think MP was "key" for the playstyle, it always was to me far more a SP game than MP.)

One error I do agree with was pre seeding interesting planets to show off. But looking at marketting in general it followed the course of showing off the best of a product.

I'd say the VAST majority were hapy with the game, it sold MILLIONS, and I doubt it had 100,000 people peeved enough to want a refund, so yes I think it still would have been a resounding success.

I also think the reason a LOT of devs arn't so communicative anymore (cough FD cough) is because of the smegstorm that blew up over NMS, Devs realised they couldn't wax lyrical during development of things, because things get cut and/or changed and clearly that get's a lot of people very upset, so keeping schtum seems to be the new norm for many devs.

could the Marketing of NMS been better? Of course it could, was it deceit (which implies premeditation).....no.

So ease off on the hyperbole and we can discuss what went wrong better and more reasonably!

 

[Old Duck]

It's not a deal beaker though is it?

It doesn't stop me from enjoying Space Engineers. NMS, on the other hand, needs an "Engineer" game mode for me to get back into it. Creative mode is too easy, and survival mode is too grindy. My biggest dissatisfaction with survival is that I have to unlock all these blue prints in order to build anything. A new "Engineer Mode", where I have to build things just like I do in survival, but where I already have all the knowledge to do so (therefore no more silly missions for NPCs in my base to unlock basic things) would be the best of both worlds for me. I want to be Rodney McKay or Scotty Montgomery stranded on a planet, not "I have no idea what I'm doing" guy.

Thankfully Space Engineers scratches that itch and then some

 

[Cotic]

I'd say the VAST majority were hapy with the game, it sold MILLIONS, and I doubt it had 100,000 people peeved enough to want a refund, so yes I think it still would have been a resounding success.

Did it sell millions? And what sort of timeframe are we referring to here?

If steam's info is anything to go by, the drop off was probably the sharpest I have ever seen for a launch which would indicate people were far from happy with the game.
In just 4 days only 1/3rd of purchases were still launching the game.
In 1 week less than 1/5th were launching the game and in just 2 weeks from release they were down from 212, 600 to 15,700 players. A loss of 92.5% from the number of people playing at launch.

I also think the reason a LOT of devs arn't so communicative anymore (cough FD cough) is because of the smegstorm that blew up over NMS, Devs realised they couldn't wax lyrical during development of things, because things get cut and/or changed and clearly that get's a lot of people very upset, so keeping schtum seems to be the new norm for many devs.

Nah, in nearly every situation devs clam up considerably post release. Virtually all studios do this, it has absolutely nothing to do with Hello Games. They did this before NMS's release and continued doing it after.

was it deceit (which implies premeditation).....no.

This is a million miles from a fact.

 

[Juniper]

It doesn't stop me from enjoying Space Engineers. NMS, on the other hand, needs an "Engineer" game mode for me to get back into it. Creative mode is too easy, and survival mode is too grindy. My biggest dissatisfaction with survival is that I have to unlock all these blue prints in order to build anything. A new "Engineer Mode", where I have to build things just like I do in survival, but where I already have all the knowledge to do so (therefore no more silly missions for NPCs in my base to unlock basic things) would be the best of both worlds for me. I want to be Rodney McKay or Scotty Montgomery stranded on a planet, not "I have no idea what I'm doing" guy.

Seriously, that's what the NMS Save Editor is for.

 

[Old Duck]

Seriously, that's what the NMS Save Editor is for.

Right now I own NMS on PS4. I've yet to see a sale low enough to entice me to buy it again on PC, especially when I have SE and EGS, with DU & SB on the horizon. But to the topic of this thread, I do think Sean has done a much better job at giving his community what they want than Braben has.

 

[Juniper]

Right now I own NMS on PS4. I've yet to see a sale low enough to entice me to buy it again on PC, especially when I have SE and EGS, with DU & SB on the horizon. But to the topic of this thread, I do think Sean has done a much better job at giving his community what they want than Braben has.

It's half price at the mo. Not sure you'll get it any cheaper than that, at least from official sources.

Honestly, NMS on PC is much better than the PS4 version.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Did it sell millions? And what sort of timeframe are we referring to here?

If steam's info is anything to go by, the drop off was probably the sharpest I have ever seen for a launch which would indicate people were far from happy with the game.
In just 4 days only 1/3rd of purchases were still launching the game.
In 1 week less than 1/5th were launching the game and in just 2 weeks from release they were down from 212, 600 to 15,700 players. A loss of 92.5% from the number of people playing at launch.



Nah, in nearly every situation devs clam up considerably post release. Virtually all studios do this, it has absolutely nothing to do with Hello Games. They did this before NMS's release and continued doing it after.



This is a million miles from a fact.

You know it was on PS4 right? Going by steam stats means nothing unless you have the PS4 stats.

FD were a LOT more communicative early doors, wouldn't surprise me if it changed around the time of the NMS poop flinging.

No it's not, unless you know Sean purposely lied....and you cannot "know" that, so your statement is actually a million miles away from a fact in itself.

 

[Leper Messiah]

It doesn't stop me from enjoying Space Engineers. NMS, on the other hand, needs an "Engineer" game mode for me to get back into it. Creative mode is too easy, and survival mode is too grindy. My biggest dissatisfaction with survival is that I have to unlock all these blue prints in order to build anything. A new "Engineer Mode", where I have to build things just like I do in survival, but where I already have all the knowledge to do so (therefore no more silly missions for NPCs in my base to unlock basic things) would be the best of both worlds for me. I want to be Rodney McKay or Scotty Montgomery stranded on a planet, not "I have no idea what I'm doing" guy.

Thankfully Space Engineers scratches that itch and then some

Strange, I don't progress in NMS much because I keep on starting new games...I like the survival start. I wish I could do that in Elite (without spending more money and having to faff around with multiple accounts).

 

[Leper Messiah]

One thing I will agree on with NMS (and with a lot of things in general)....it was very much over hyped and usually NOTHING lives up to hype. But the level of hype generated by the public was the most I'd ever seen. I mean at the end of the day it was a space exploration game, they never sell that well. I also don't think average Joe had a clue what procedural generation actually meant!.....Lot's of stupid people got over excited about NMS IMO.