Why is there more malice aimed at people wanting mining the way it was than towards the people who exploited it?

[Jmanis]

I have been playing ED for about three years now and I have enjoyed each of the "professions" the game has to offer. Of course combat, and the slowness of making it to Elite is off putting I stopped at Master. Anyway, the one thing I always felt was odd, why do Veteran players care some much about what a New players gets in a certain time frame?

You say it right there in the first sentence.

People don't care about a "newbie" getting to a big ship quickly, they can suffer that themselves. Instead, they care about the devaluation of other activities in the game. Ranking up Combat only seems slow, because the other ranks are too damn fast.

If I spend an hour in a Threat 5/6 Pirate Activity site, and come out with 1-2m in bounties to my name, that's a total punch in the guts when I know mining for the same length of time will give 100 times that in rewards.

And to compare like with like, go look at mining missions. That's a true measure of what FD sees as the "normal" rate of income for mining... and in that case, 45t of some mineral will earn you anywhere between 2-8m credits. Throw in the fact the minerals mining missions ask for (are/used to be) harder to find than LTDs and the like, and tell me.

Would you mine 45t of Hydrogen Peroxide for 8m credits? Or would you rather expend the same effort mining 45t of LTDs for 45m?

Misquoting Spec Ops: The Line... it takes a strong person to deny what's right in front of them... and what's right in front of me is a glaring mismatch of effort versus reward.

That's what matters here. This whole "vets caring about newbs progressing too quick" is just a symptom of a bigger problem with the game.

 

[Schmack]

Exploits should be fixed. The problem is the baby is still with the bathwater, in the yard. It's not the complainers (though some seem to hate it when they think anyone else is enjoying the game without seeing the witchspace screen every few seconds for weeks on end or taking images of RNG easter eggs floating in virtual space), it's the sloppy way the problems are 1st introduced then rectified. Imagine a surgeon leaves his watch in your abdomen, and you complain about it, so he takes it out with a chopping axe. That's FDev. Oh the spleen removal was unintended. That makes me feel so much better knowing the competence level.

 

[Rat Catcher]

It took me 1 hour and 27 minutes less and more pleasure to make that meme based on this thread, than it did to mine 34 rocks of LTD.

... I understand not all the vets in ED are as condescending as the ones in this thread...

You lasted longer in your tolerence of the self-appointed and aggrandized 'vets' than I ever did - I decided these oafs had nothing to add to the game a couple of months after joining this forum

The point is that if you mined during the LTD boom, you profited.

Edited for fact...

I wonder if I am a veteran?

Do you know what daylight looks like, and are familiar with the wonderful smell of fresh air?
If you can answer yes to both... You aren't!

Also, if you aren't bothered by how another player plays the game, you certainly aren't

 

[Thauma]

My main problem with mining is that only few resources are worth it. What would you guys say if the overall price dropped and instead boom/holiday events become more common and the buy prices increase as well during such extra demands? And, instead of just 3-4 ores being selected for such events, all of them get the chance to be highly demanded? From iron and gold, all the way to ltds and opals. It will make mining way more unpredictable and thrilling and will pressure people into filling and hoarding wide variety of resources on their carriers.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Little anecdote to explain further what the problem is:

On my second account, I had a plan - buy and A-rate a Crusader, unlock all Colonia engineers, then move to Colonia permanently. So I wiped that account, and got to it.

Progression at the beginning of the game is actually fairly balanced, right up until you are able to afford a ship with all the necessary mining equipment. It took me longer to get from E-rated Sidewinder to C-rated Adder with refinery and core mining gear (without using external data to find the relevant modules) than getting from that Adder to my Crusader (iirc around 70m credits worth).

To emphasise, that wasn't even engaging in overlap/egg mining. It was in a single LTD hotspot I came across by chance, in a random system. And I sold the diamonds not at the max rate of ~1.7m, but for around 1.1m.

You know what that felt like? Cheating.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

I wonder if I am a veteran? Aside from my DD-214 stating I am but I digress.

Am I? I'd like to think so after a few years of playing it when it first released on consoles. Talk about growing pains.

However, that thing called military deployments got in the way and I would chose to start from scratch recently and relearn everything than continue on with an account that had been stagnant for years. This is why I consider myself "new". Want to know how long it took me to get into a Python on my first go back then?? Who TF cares how long it took me.

USMC by the way.

 

[Old Duck]

Well actually, there are mining level rushes you can do in game to get to gear cap (grinding dolmens).

It is handled with much more finess though.. to min max it you need to be part of an organized group, which creates a unique experience in itself, its not as dumb as choosing one single player activity (though i think there are those too, but less effective). The other thing is the experience of the world is not removed or invalidated by doing so, the general content (difficulty+reward) scales to your level, and while not presenting any form of challenge ever like most games, it still feels valid to do the first quest of the game at cp160 vs level 1. Both the difficulty and the progression beyond gear cap makes this so. There's also another dynamic of being able to buff it even further with cash shop items but that doesn't need to be mentioned.. you get enough of those free from logging in every day anyway.

ps. The cool thing about those dolmens is you can solo them at lower levels with the right build. But they take longer but are very satisfying because you beat this glorified pseudo multiplayer thing. i love it how that works.

Eso is pretty amazing. At the same time its not that hard because its evident in the pudding they just take their profession seriously. Happens when there's competition.

Huh.... Well, the irony is that my favorite part of ESO is starting off fresh, so I never rush through or grind for anything, I just play for fun. Well, played (past tense) as I grew weary of the amusement park feel of the game. I would absolutely love a "solo mode" version of ESO where I could explore and collect materials and do all the single-player quests, especially if this deactivated the mob-respawn mechanism. I know, this is how MMOs work, hence why I'm not a big fan of them (but I do enjoy how Elite does things).

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Am I? I'd like to think so after a few years of playing it when it first released on consoles. Talk about growing pains.

However, that thing called military deployments got in the way and I would chose to start from scratch recently and relearn everything than continue on with an account that had been stagnant for years. This is why I consider myself "new". Want to know how long it took me to get into a Python on my first go back then?? Who TF cares how long it took me.

USMC by the way.

Yeah, it's a disgrace that Frontier don't design their progression curves around war mongering nations' invasion schedules.

 

[Old Duck]

Who TF cares how long it took me.

I think you assume that everyone who cares about game balance also cares about how you play the game. Granted, the ebb and flow of the conversation in this thread has included discussion about individual player preferences, but I'm pretty sure nobody in this thread is specifically charting your own ship progression to determine whether or not you are worthy of "malice".

Personally, I could give a rat's behind what you do in the game or how you do it. What I care about is the game itself, so when a bunch of people come on the forum and tell Frontier to switch ED to easy mode where we all go from Sidewinder to Python in a day, well, those of us looking for a more challenging, immersive simulation are going to push back. Are you one of these people? I honestly don't know, as your posts in this thread seem contradictory in places. It sounds like you are not, since every time I bring up this argument you deny that's what you want. But there are people who do want "easy mode", and that changes MY game, so here I am saying, "No thank you."

That said, I personally have no problem with "pay to win", because ED is a PvE game for me, so you winning does not mean I'm losing. Heck, if people could buy a Cutter with real cash like Star Citizen, this would not bother me a bit. I'll just assume they are children of Donald Trump (their game characters, not the RL players) who inherited a fortune. In fact, that's more immersive for me than all of us starting off in the same Sidewinder, which makes no sense. I also don't have any problem with gifting credits in the game, as that also is immersive and real life. I just don't want ED to be rewritten to become a casual "easy mode" "can be finished in a weekend" kind of game. Though having said that, even this is less than a deal breaker for me now than it was a year ago, seeing that I've already "finished" the game myself. I'm personally thankful that progression was hard back in the day, as that challenge is what made ED worthwhile for me and many others. YMMV of course.

Anyway, I keep trying to quit this thread, but I really want to make sure everybody involved understands this point of view before I do. Your Bugs Bunny characterization is more like Bugs Strawman IMO, and it does nothing to diffuse the "malice" you seem so concerned about.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

The problem with P2W is that games that incorporate that form of monetisation end up changing gameplay progression to cater for it.

Look at any F2P game, or GTA5 as an AAA example - where mere clothes cost dozens of thousands of in-game dollars, and general price inflation is through the roof, making the Online section of the game a massive grind for those who don't want to buy shark cards. I don't want that in Elite.

 

[Dragsham]

Whatever raises revenue to enrich the game content is ok with me2.
Presumption that the extra income WOULD be used correctly rather than company Jags & newer blinged offices.
I don't care what they charge.
If it means more coders more potential creative output then yup all for it.
Paid for this n that would alienate alot of players though.
That's the downside. Droves would leave if subs arrived.
But how many would come back or new players if content skyrockets bugs fixed game balanced etc.
IF that could happen as a result truly it would be a good thing.
I'm gonner go walk my dog....

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

The whole point for mining to become so profitable was so that; -

1. People would try out the new Deep Core mining.
2. People could afford to buy and run the planned fleet carriers.

Only, it took too long for fleet carriers to arrive and people have built up vast fortunes in the meantime. Now that the game is saturated with Fleet Carriers, they fixed the mining to limit the numbers but it's still upset the balance of the game. I can understand it's made the game more accessible for a lot of players but it is damaging the game long term.Yes, it hurts the game that you can go from Penniless to trade Elite too quickly these days. It demeans the rank of Trade Elite so that no-one is bothered about it anymore. Just like the Rags to Riches Tour and the payouts for planetary probes devalued exploration elite*.

The thing was that they got the 'Progression' from Sidewinder to Cobra about right when the game started but the grind really hit about the time players tried to get past the ASP. To be honest, they should have made getting credits easier to earn, only when you get to a ship that needs you to earn credits at that amount. E.g. Missions pay out huge amounts but require you to have a certain ship to do it. i.e. Sidewinder missions pays peanuts, Anaconda missions pays loads. Commodities can be unlocked for trade or mining only if you've reached a certain ship or above, although I would say that you could still pirate any commodity.

I think the mistake was, that things were originally gated by elite ranks but there were never enough missions on the board that you could do at the beginning which caused problems.

But at this point, any action they do is like fixing the barn after the horses have bolted, ran off and created a new herd. The only way they'll ever fix the economy / ship progression would be to completely re-balance the whole economy and maybe restart everyone again. Can you imagine Everest** level of salt that would be generated?

* I remember old DDF discussions about the more a system was scanned, the less it would be worth but that didn't seem to have made it through to the game itself
** Actually forget that it would more likely be an Olympus Mons level of salt.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Does it really matter if a new player watches half a dozen youtube videos then goes from sidewinder to Anaconda in mere hours?

Why should it matter how they choose to play - "Blaze your own trail" is the slogan emblazoned across all of the 'official' propaganda regarding ED - so why consider, because a new player doesn't have to follow the slug-like progress from the game even just under 3 years ago, they are 'doing it wrong'?

Once upon a time I thought this was a 'happy place' for new players to visit... Now that these players can 'earn' credits on a scale those of us a few years ago weren't able to, it has really brought out the true 'killjoys' who appear to bemoan how they didn't get their fleet handed them off a LTD encrusted spoon...

 

[Old Duck]

The problem with P2W is that games that incorporate that form of monetisation end up changing gameplay progression to cater for it.

Look at any F2P game, or GTA5 as an AAA example - where mere clothes cost dozens of thousands of in-game dollars, and general price inflation is through the roof, making the Online section of the game a massive grind for those who don't want to buy shark cards. I don't want that in Elite.

I totally agree with you, I do not want a game where regular play is purposefully made nigh impossible in order to incentivize people to spend extra money. And you are right, there are way too many examples of companies that have done exactly that. I guess I just have an "idealized" vision of how this could work to make everyone happy, because I also don't want to see ED dumbed down any more than it already has been. Though like I said, I was lucky, I got to experience ED when it was challenging, fun, and immersive, so even if Frontier changes the fundamental sense of progression to an Oprah "EVERYONE gets a Cutter today!" model, it won't affect me that much I guess...

And like I said in another thread, pirating a noob in a Cutter is way more fun (and rewarding) than pirating a noob in a Hauler

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Whatever raises revenue to enrich the game content is ok with me2.
Presumption that the extra income WOULD be used correctly rather than company Jags & newer blinged offices.
I don't care what they charge.
If it means more coders more potential creative output then yup all for it.
Paid for this n that would alienate alot of players though.
That's the downside. Droves would leave if subs arrived.
But how many would come back or new players if content skyrockets bugs fixed game balanced etc.
IF that could happen as a result truly it would be a good thing.
I'm gonner go walk my dog....

Let's be perfectly honest here - I spent a pretty penny in the store over the past years, and have (mostly) no regrets. But Frontier are pushing their luck with the pricing of their cosmetics as is stands - I'm surprised to see that I'm not the only fool who is parting with their cash so easily.

I then look at SCS or Kunos Simulazioni, who release top level DLC which is priced fairly - about 10-20 Euros for absolutely excellent, highly detailed and meaty additions to their games. For that money I get a bunch of different colours and some basic (and too often faulty) ship kits in Elite.

What I'm saying is... FDev will do well to stick to what they have going now, and I do think they know it (plus Odyssey will be full fat price I reckon, just like Horizons was when it launched, I still remember being salty about it costing the same as I paid for the base game), going P2W would be the straw that breaks the camel's back (for this customer at least).

Anyways, derailing the thread so will leave it at this little rant

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I totally agree with you, I do not want a game where regular play is purposefully made nigh impossible in order to incentivize people to spend extra money. And you are right, there are way too many examples of companies that have done exactly that. I guess I just have an "idealized" vision of how this could work to make everyone happy, because I also don't want to see ED dumbed down any more than it already has been. Though like I said, I was lucky, I got to experience ED when it was challenging, fun, and immersive, so even if Frontier changes the fundamental sense of progression to an Oprah "EVERYONE gets a Cutter today!" model, it won't affect me that much I guess...

And like I said in another thread, pirating a noob in a Cutter is way more fun (and rewarding) than pirating a noob in a Hauler

Yeah, agreed. If they sold credits for Arx and left it at that, I wouldn't care either but unfortunately that's not where it stops, because most players will rightfully see how easy it already is to make credits in the game, so won't spend on the store. How do you change that as a dev? Et voila...

Does it really matter if a new player watches half a dozen youtube videos then goes from sidewinder to Anaconda in mere hours?

Why should it matter how they choose to play - "Blaze your own trail" is the slogan emblazoned across all of the 'official' propaganda regarding ED - so why consider, because a new player doesn't have to follow the slug-like progress from the game even just under 3 years ago, they are 'doing it wrong'?

Once upon a time I thought this was a 'happy place' for new players to visit... Now that these players can 'earn' credits on a scale those of us a few years ago weren't able to, it has really brought out the true 'killjoys' who appear to bemoan how they didn't get their fleet handed them off a LTD encrusted spoon...

Players can blaze their own trail as much as they like, I wish them well, but when they start suggesting for the game's economy to become (or rather, remain) absolutely silly and unrealistic then this will impact my "trail" also.

I don't want Elite's economy to be a joke (where both demand and supply is unlimited at very high prices) just because some players basically want a plain old sandbox where everything is unlocked from the start.

 

[Flimley]

Everything can be blamed on global warming.
Flimley

 

[Old Duck]

Everything can be blamed on global warming.

Which in turn can be blamed on VR.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

Little anecdote to explain further what the problem is:

On my second account, I had a plan - buy and A-rate a Crusader, unlock all Colonia engineers, then move to Colonia permanently. So I wiped that account, and got to it.

Progression at the beginning of the game is actually fairly balanced, right up until you are able to afford a ship with all the necessary mining equipment. It took me longer to get from E-rated Sidewinder to C-rated Adder with refinery and core mining gear (without using external data to find the relevant modules) than getting from that Adder to my Crusader (iirc around 70m credits worth).

To emphasise, that wasn't even engaging in overlap/egg mining. It was in a single LTD hotspot I came across by chance, in a random system. And I sold the diamonds not at the max rate of ~1.7m, but for around 1.1m.

You know what that felt like? Cheating.

I mean, there where 10k daily players in Borann "cheating" (in your words) away for weeks, even months.
I find it kind of weird that we now want to reward that behavior by gutting the profits, and punishing new or future customers, in the name of a "saving their game progression".
Game progression is up to each player anyway. Nobody has to go after gold-rushes.

I completely understand the complaints that the balancing between professions is off (and I think we all agree on that), but on the other hand players very clearly used this mining imbalance for their own profit, and if we remove it now the balance between what players can/could earn per hour is off. Both issues should be addressed, and ridiculing one or the other side isn't helping the issue.

• The profit of mining of LTD needs to be brought back a bit, but I have never seen FDEV succeed in these adjustements, usually they just gut it into irrelevancy.
• Other professions, missions and the whole game needs a profit adjustment/boost.

That would be the best solution in my eyes.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I mean, there where 10k daily players in Borann "cheating" (in your words) away for weeks, even months.
I find it kind of weird that we now want to reward that behavior by gutting the profits, and punishing new or future customers, in the name of a "saving their game progression".
Game progression is up to each player anyway. Nobody has to go after gold-rushes.

I completely understand the complaints that the balancing between professions is off (and I think we all agree on that), but on the other hand players very clearly used this mining imbalance for their own profit, and if we remove it now the balance between what players can/could earn per hour is off. Both issues should be addressed, and ridiculing one or the other side isn't helping the issue.

• The profit of mining of LTD needs to be brought back a bit, but I have never seen FDEV succeed in these adjustements, usually they just gut it into irrelevancy.
• Other professions, missions and the whole game needs a profit adjustment/boost.

That would be the best solution in my eyes.

Just to be very clear, I didn't say that it is cheating. But it felt to me that I was. Cheating myself by taking the easy mode option.

I reset my alt account twice before, and after my first reset I vowed not to touch core mining to fast track earnings, and stick to the 'intended' (judging by the mission board payouts) progression curve. While the slower burn was more fun for me, it took a fair bit of willpower and I'd prefer if the game would take charge of that instead of having to do it by myself. This was more difficult for me also because I actually enjoy mining, all forms of it.

Same goes for Borann/New Borann. I took part in that to earn the credits towards my FC (only needed a few billion, and made sure I didn't burn out on it - mixed it up with various other activities so I only spent maybe 2-3 hours per week or every second week 3LTD mining), but completely ignored it on my alt account. And I don't care what other players achieve or own, it's the economy I do care about though and it was a broken economy that facilitated this particular gold rush, for way too long a time.