I'll join you Nathan. We can also try some SLF vs SLF in an asteroid field.
Adding the Taipan (at all) is one of the big requests.
The CQC Imp Fighter is more agile than the CQC Condor, but not by that much.
'uck yeah! You and me pardner. Lets get our asses whooped repeatedly!
I suspect there will be a thread about rocks ganking us...
Good game yesterday manlyvik! Wish I could’ve stayed longer!
There is 0 reason to introduce additional complexity in the form of "Power-ups". You're already playing in a three dimensional arena with six axes of movement, three systems to be balanced and one countermeasure to be managed, all while not hitting asteroids or a station. Why would you introduce a bygone element of classic arena shooters into something which is fundamentally different? Why would that element be something that is not found in the main game at all?
Can someone provide a valid argument as to why powerups should even exist?
Can someone provide a valid argument as to why powerups should even exist?
Power ups:
- add tactical element to the game, i.e. one power up counters the other, people develop strategies etc.
- make people use the whole map, create certain routes people take.. and that add specific dynamics to the game - if there is nothing worth getting in the center of the map why would you take a risk to go there into potential crossfire.. better to camp on the edges of the map
- they are a great fun when playing with top tier players fights over dominance of the power ups
- make certain ships a viable option
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There are many points of divergence between the main game and CQC.
Totally different animals, man. CQC is fast-paced, and low-risk, while the main game is pretty much the opposite. Some skills transfer between the main game and CQC, some don't.
I didn't like CQC at first, but it grew on me pretty quick. Like any other competitive game, you're gonna get beat up at first. You'll catch on if you stick with it for a bit.
I didn't like CQC at first, but it grew on me pretty quick. Like any other competitive game, you're gonna get beat up at first. You'll catch on if you stick with it for a bit.
Constantly picking up stealth/weapons is not tactical. The counter system is not well thought-out. What counters shield? Attack. What counters attack? Shield or stealth. What counters stealth? Manually aiming. What counters speed boost? There's no need to counter it since it lasts for 2 seconds. There is zero strategy to: hold back from fight to pick up one of the three useful power-ups, and then attack.
It does encourage people to use "certain routes", ie stealth -> attack, and then attack someone. I do concede that they are useful for drawing some players to certain places (the experienced ones, who understand how overpowered power-ups are), but there are better ideas for elements to encourage players to go to certain places. What really draws players to each other is noticing weapon fire from a distance. The maps aren't actually large enough to necessitate drawing players into close proximity when they are filled with eight players, and in that case you can't fly 2 meters without spotting another player. The problem is when there are only 2 players, which is more often than not. Why are there only 2 players? Because when people play CQC they're dissuaded by how different it is from the main game. Why is it so different? Therein lies the problem.
An "easy" way (I understand the complexity of programming/game design) to encourage players to go to one place would be to introduce King-of-the-Hill, either as an element in every gamemode or a separate one. A zone indicated on the radar that you accrue points in while you are in it, or as long as you hold it. The problem is such a mode would only work without power-ups, as anyone not on the hill would just go get one to kill whoever is on the hill, their power-up fades, rinse and repeat.
Great that top tier players are having great fun, but it doesn't really make up for how little fun a lot of other people are having, does it? And it doesn't really seem like they're top-tier players in the first place if their skill relies on power-ups.
You're right in that that's not an problem with power-ups.
Mostly it's deleterious, elements from the main game that are missing. Ships, weapons, NPCs, non-line-of-sight tracking, etc. I think most of these absences are designed to reduce the game to its core combat elements. But then as a homage to classic arena shooters, they add overpowered power-ups. I'm of the opinion the core game and CQC should negligibly differ, except as a means of making CQC better able to hone your combat skills. Flying through hoops doesn't hit the mark the same way non-persistent targeting does.
Hey, you were one of the regulars in CQC I keep seeing over the past few days. And you're one of the guys who handed my anus (guess the word "azs" gets filtered out) to me - part of the reason I can't stay in any Arena episode for long. 2 things: 1, HI! 2, How can I be that indomitable so I can enjoy the game the way YOU do?
Also, sorry I'm late to the discussion; CQC rank of "Amateur", trying to hit "Elite" before I retire from there permanently...came here specifically looking for "pro-tips".
Though honestly, CQC is a much more fast-paced, and ABSOLUTELY more INTENSE experience! And that's exactly what draws me into it! There were times early on where I'd feel like a true Ace Pilot, and I loved that! (To say nothing about me admittedly getting a sick thrill of sadistically bulk-slaughtering the legitimate rookies). As I'd say about PvP IN GENERAL, "I can see the appeal if I could stand a fighting chance." But when I see a handful of VERY SPECIFIC player names in the lobby, I just quit like, "NOPE! I'm NOT going to even BOTHER!"
Because unless one of you is deliberately going to try and mentor me, it's NOT fun to get whooped repeatedly...and the suffering of stats just adds a low-blow on top of that.
And 3 magic words that separates the men from the boys: "Flight Assist OFF!"
And after seeing a specific video, I was like, "Oh, so THAT is how I was still getting hit after firing chaff." Yeah, players can still dumb-fire straight onto you, when you're jamming the gimbal functions. Kinda makes stealth mode weakened when used against proper experts.
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That mindset is so damaging. It's not just not for everyone, it's only for you and a handful of others who have mastered the system. It is symptomatic of stagnation when the best players of a game see no way in which it can be improved. It shows that the system which benefits their enjoyment is what they would rather have than anything which might impeach their position. Countless online games have gone the way of the Dodo because of a sense of complacency. Some have yet survived, like Team Fortress 2, which receives semidecadely updates, but only because its core gameplay is so engrossing (the classic arena shooter formula, sans power-ups), and it's free. Arena has a core, but it's confused by the introduction of Power-ups which change its entire dynamic.
On a different note if I were an FDev I would feel sick at seeing the released gameplay for Star Wars: Squadrons. Imagine having all the essential elements at your disposal to see the first-person space battle simulator fleshed out in all its glory, but letting the gamemode languish. It's highly disheartening to me, as I imagine it will discourage any thought of improving the current Arena format to compete for that niche, and instead doubling down on main game development. Of course the main game is what the majority of people care about, but I think with just a bit of love Arena (just one part of the whole game) could easily compete with a brand new triple A game.
You have typical mindset of a loser.
I'm prime example it can be done even with already established strong clique who mastered the system. I was 2 years late to the party you know.
As a newcomer doing very well I wasn't popular with some cqc elite players, there were some were even trying to bully me and make me quit.
So don't give me that "struggle of a new player" talk, please lol
I loved CQC from day one (it kinda reminded me old Quake Arena - nostalgia). In my first weeks I was being insta-killed again and again but I had determination and patience to learn and now I beat them at their own system.
CQC system is pretty cool once you grasp it and accept it. The game in terms of ships and weapons is pretty balanced.
What gives advantage is skill and experience - as it should be.
The game needs bug fixes more than anything. And more love from the FDevs.
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I have come up against MUSKETEER several times lately. I have not detected ANY kind of cheating. I can only blame my own poor piloting skills
With a large number of experienced players the powerups aren't unbalanced because people are constantly grabbing them so you don't get to monopolise them.
With a large number of beginners the powerups aren't unbalanced because no-one knows to try.
The problem is that because the game population wasn't high enough - and it would need to be incredibly and consistently high for the matchmaking model they chose - they adjusted the rules to make it easier to get games at all:
- they removed some of the restrictions that discouraged mixed-level matches
- they reduced the numbers needed to start a match from 4 (DM) and 6 (Team) to 2 and 4
These were probably necessary - after all, getting shot down repeatedly isn't great, but it still beats staring at the spinning hexagon for hours, and while the matches work best with a full 8 you could wait for ages - but it does mean the powerups do exacerbate the differences. (But the beginners would still lose by miles anyway - I was never more than second-tier myself even when I played every day, but I could still win a beginner-level match without using powerups or dying)
The "queue from main game" feature seems to be doing pretty well, though - I haven't had to wait for DM or TDM at all since that came out - and maybe if that continues they'll be able to put some of the level segregation back in.
Ships and weapons, yes (the Sidewinder frag cannon aside). There's some pretty terrible junk in the other bits - armour booster, system focused power distributor, etc - which either needs a serious buff or just getting rid of.
Experience manifesting in knowing where the power-ups are. No one is rushing to say that they aren't the meta, and that's what Frontier should pick up on.
Do you think Arena is perfect (outside some bugs) and that the abysmal population count is because "it's not for everyone"?
What shines in this gamemode, is the ability to outfly your opponent to beat them, and not to rely on using something which makes you do more damage, take almost no damage, or not care about taking damage. Why would something which exacerbates a problem be thought of by a good thing other than by the people whom it benefits?
I have seen no compelling argument as to why the powerups are necessary, unless I'm just missing it. I could think of a reason to have power-ups: something I've seen called the "deathloop", or just endlessly looping around each other until someone dies, rinse and repeat. This is what happens if there are two players in a vacuum (har har) and neither of them have flight assist off. They're just constantly trying and failing to out-turn their opponent. So Frontier introduces something which encourages flying in a straight line: power-ups. In practice though people are almost never fighting close enough to level geometry to escape clean shots, so unless they're in a faster ship, they're dead, and don't even have a chance to fly in a straight line to some power-up. I'm not an FDev so I can't claim to have tested what happens in a match without powerups (I assume that the side that flies better will simply win), but I do trust that there is some reason why they are present in the first place besides the fact they were in classic arena shooters. Please enlighten me.
Also, what if powerups spawned randomly? Eliminates the necessity for experience to win, but still includes something which could presumably solve the deathloop. What I mean by random is that all four are present at start, but when one is taken, a random one takes its place. In that system it would be possible at any one point for the entire map to be littered with attacks, or more likely with speedboosts. So there's a nice symptom: actually encourages use of all powerups and encourages people to explore the maps.
It is indeed true that beginners don't make anywhere near enough use of cover (and even experts can get carried away and drawn into the open at times) but most of the maps do have quite a bit of cover - especially Ice Field and Asteria, so getting into a boring turning fight in the open is a choice that at least one party to it shouldn't have made in the first place.
Stealth, speed and shield boost are pretty good for running away to - and as the powerups are mostly close to cover, this can be done while using cover to assist a retreat. Equally, trying to shoot someone down before they get through the shield boost adds excitement (and lets people get back into the fight a bit quicker if they're shields down/weak after their previous matchup resolved)
Then you need weapons to stop stealth and shield being too effective offensively.
Obviously if you let one person get all the powerups the combination is too much, but in a match with lots of good players that doesn't happen (and picking up weapons can just get you focused and killed before you have much time to use them)
They're also more important for the team version and especially CTF, where timing a run to make use of shield/stealth powerups, or denying them to the opposing flag carrier, can be crucial ... and the initial positioning encourages team matches to start with a rush for the centre, rather than each wing carefully grouping up and trying to sneak up on the other, to get the brawl started early.
It'd need the power-up markers to be coloured in on the radar so that you could plan ahead a bit without having to spend ages checking the right panel - though that would probably help beginners get used to the map layouts anyway - but sure, that could add a bit of interest as another map parameter. Exceptions, I think:
- cluster compound, which only has one powerup, should have that always be weapons, as that encourages action while the other three encourage caution. It'd actually probably be worse if someone looping powerups uncontested there could get non-weapon powerups as well: at least as it currently is they can be worn down by attrition.
- CTF mode should probably keep fixed powerup locations because the relative positions of the flags and the powerups are important and should stay mirrored.