Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

So you say CR lied in the KS 2012 when he told us that he worked on SQ42 a while?
No, for me the reboot of the project is like a new start. What have been done before in a lot of technical aspects is often not really useful when you change heavily the scope of a project.

Where are Chris and Sandi? Are they both still drawing executive salaries from the backers' money? For what work? ... Since they are transparent I'm sure you can tell us.
As said before 'open' doesn't mean 'all infos'. And 'open' in the SC case is mainly related to the technical aspect, not personnal/managing ones. You want to know the salary of Ben Parry ?
SC is not 'open source', just 'open'. It's not a GPL project.
 
Yes they are the 'most' transparent. Do you know one game giving more info than CIG about its alpha ?
But 'most' infos doesn't mean 'all' infos.
Rust's completely transparent Trello roadmap and devblogs are an obvious example
 
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Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Yes they are the 'most' transparent.

And yet we have had exactly zero information for many months on a key and fundamental milestone of this project: The actual state of readiness for the promised SQ42 beta for Q3.

Do you know one game giving more info than CIG about its alpha ?

Most of of the things CIG says will happen often do not happen, or happen terribly poorly or years late, compared to how they were represented and sold for money. This means CIG does not really give "more info", it actually misinforms (all the while accepting the cash for it) which is worst than not giving any information at all. Here or here are just a couple examples among many that probably generated tons of money for CIG due to the "information" given, and then not delivered as stated.

Bugs because alpha ?

8+ years. As we can all see every day it is not just bugs but fundamental flaws in design and poor workmanship that are still being carried through all this time. Either way, weather it is due to the omnipresent bugs or to design flaws and incompetence the end result is the same: Such features can not be considered delivered, they simply do not work reliably enough, or at all. After 8+ years.
 
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Most transparent dev ever as long as you ignore all the stuff they are not transparent about....

When Star Marine was meant to arrive in 2015 but didn't, where was the transparency?
When patch 3.0 was meant to arrive in December 2016 but didn't, where was the transparency?
When Squadron 42 was meant to arrive in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2020 but didn't, where was the transparency?

It is absolutely absurd to call them the most transparent devs.
 
A lot of what's worked atm is not on the public roadmap.
So in other words, the roadmap wasn't a reliable source of what's being done or in the making.
Nor is it likely to ever be.

Yes they are the 'most' transparent. Do you know one game giving more info than CIG about its alpha ?
Everything made my Doublefine in the last decade.
Anything made by Harebrained in the last decade.

And that's before you take into account what CI¬G actually reveals about its alpha and how that information relates to reality. In which case, I'd probably throw in Apple as a company being more open about its alphas. In fact, I have a hard time coming up with a company less forthcoming about the realities of its development process than CI¬G. Maybe EA or Bethesda, but that's about it.
 
Most transparent dev ever as long as you ignore all the stuff they are not transparent about....

When Star Marine was meant to arrive in 2015 but didn't, where was the transparency?
When patch 3.0 was meant to arrive in December 2016 but didn't, where was the transparency?
When Squadron 42 was meant to arrive in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2020 but didn't, where was the transparency?

It is absolutely absurd to call them the most transparent devs.
Let's not forget that time they changed engines without telling anyone until six months later.
Or that time they gave away backer-funded assets to a third party without telling anyone until six months later.
Or that other time they gave away backer-funded assets to a third party without telling anyone until six months later.

All while singing their own praises about how everything was going swimmingly with everything, especially the funding and the engine development.
They're not only wholly opaque, but are actively and continuously lying about the state of the game and the company.
 
Yes they are the 'most' transparent. Do you know one game giving more info than CIG about its alpha ?
But 'most' infos doesn't mean 'all' infos.

So, you don't think backers (in the most open developer ever - which i'm not sure it is, others have in the past talked about other games which did very open development) deserve to know when CIG spend 8 months and resources to create a new game mode that nobody asked for?

I know backers naturally mentally justified it in line with the party line from CIG that it was for testing, but i have no idea how anyone can swallow that tripe after Arena Commander (which was meant to inform the flight model) and Star Marine (which was meant to inform FPS), but now they swallow CIG's horse manure that ToW will inform combined arms combat.

I mean, really? How dumb do you have to be to accept that?
 
Went in for a very quick spin on the 3.10.
First step was going out of New Babbage, to avoid the new guiding tunnels of doom above Area18 and Lorville:
  • Lifts are still a pair of doors, that visibly travel across the map in a very disturbing way. Still zero feedback on whatever happens when you call one or click on a destination. This is going on now since like 2 years or so ?
  • Trains are still duplicated over each other with some quantum magic, leading to non predictable behaviours form the physics engine (it may throw a fit and your character across the surface of the planet, or into orbit, or just let him down on the rails while the train departs). This has been going on for a long time and is still far from fixed, actually if anything it's getting worse.
  • Lifting off with a Retaliator, i noticed the quite important difference in perceived heft of the ship, its inertia, and what's new, angular momentum ! Interesting. I'll come back to that

Then went out of atmo, on to Port Tressler (the orbital station just above the planet) to park there so i dont have to respawn on the planet and endure the bug ridden and boring commute.
  • Tried to use the MFD in Comms mode to contact landing services. MFD is still totally buggered (not able to change display modes, when they dont just blank out entirely).
  • So i used my personal comms device. Landing services not anywhere in global or local contacts. Turn out they are now under "friends" for some obscure idiotic reason.
  • Upon landing, noticed Repair and Refuel are still not working at all. It's been going on for quite a long time and a few patches and killing a lot of the motivation for playing the alpha...

Okay time to bring out the Sabre and try space & atmo fighter flight test. (Sabre is a medium sized winged fighter, with good aerodynamics judging from its shape)
  • Do NOT linger even for a fraction of a second after taking off from the station: they have become quite nervous and will get hostile rather quickly...
  • Space flight has now some inertia, and also angular momentum too, interesting. I think it's a global step in the right direction. It takes a little bit of practice to get used to, which could not be said of the former "linear movement" FM, so it's indeed good news.
  • Went down to the planet for some low altitude flight. The ship exhibits interesting behaviours, with mav thrusters actually fighting what seems to be gravity (!! that's new !) but wings providing zero lift (that's not new, but a bit disappointing). Yaw is behaving quite like an actual winged plane, which is surpringly good. Since the wings provide no lift, it will not pull any more G's than in space seemingly, which is also a bit of a letdown. Still, globally it feels a LOT better than what it used to be. Landing and taking off is also a bit less jarring even though landing gear still lacks shock absorption.
  • Atmo flight is a far cry from what KSP+FAR could offer, but still, this ship has now some personality, and its own atmo flight model. That's quite good.

Then went back to the station, called the Retaliator (a big turreted torpedo bomber, with huge wings and fins, and VTOL) for the same test.
  • It's properly heavy ! I suppose i wont be strafing around Hammerheads anymore evading their lasers, time for new tactics. It's got lots of inertia, and will definitely pull stronger now from main thrusters.
  • In atmo, VTOL does make a difference, it uses about 50% of the thrust that would be needed to keep the ship afloat in non-VTOL mode. Horizontal speed seems not affected much though, which is weird considering a few of the main engines are now pointing down, and should increase drag quite a lot...
  • Banking on its sides and it will fall down due to weaker lateral mav thrusters. It wont "fall towards the horizon" so i guess that was fixed from the PTU - it now falls properly towards the planet.
  • Turning radius at full blast is really slow and wide, while going slower it will pivot easily. This will induce a few new tactics too.
  • Overall it's a lot more challenging to pilot that ship in extreme conditions, which is quite good indeed. Even though a lot of details are missing, it's a giant step in the right direction, and what i expected from that CitizenCon presentation a few years ago.
  • I noticed that mav thrusters still pull around 2.2G while main thrusters pull about 4.5G (around double then) - the ratio seems still off considering the size difference, but i guess it's a work in progress, or at least progress was accomplished here.
  • Top speed is still sluggish considering the Tali has good areodynamics and huge main engines.

Then went on with a server crash as i was going back to the station. Not too thrilled about trying again as there's not much else to do, given how broken everything else is.

3.10 = not recommended unless you want to fool around a bit. It will punish you for just trying to "play the game". The new FM is interesting though and piloting heavy cargo ships might get actually fun !

All these problems are clearly because your PC is under spec. I've been assured by many of the faithful that this is the case. Pfft, you probably don't even have it installed on a SSD.
 
No, for me the reboot of the project is like a new start. What have been done before in a lot of technical aspects is often not really useful when you change heavily the scope of a project.

So, if CIG claim another reboot, you'll be fine with it? How many reboots will you allow them before you start to head towards the pitchfork aisle?

As said before 'open' doesn't mean 'all infos'. And 'open' in the SC case is mainly related to the technical aspect, not personnal/managing ones. You want to know the salary of Ben Parry ?
SC is not 'open source', just 'open'. It's not a GPL project.

Ah, so basically you get to cherry pick what constitutes open development? So, CIG are free to withhold whatever info they like, selectively, but its still the most open ever?

Dude...
 
And yet we have had exactly zero information for many months on a key and fundamental milestone of this project: The actual state of readiness for the promised SQ42 beta for Q3.



Most of of the things CIG says will happen often do not happen, or happen terribly poorly or years late, compared to how they were represented and sold for money. This means CIG does not really give "more info", it actually misinforms (all the while accepting the cash for it) which is worst than not giving any information at all. Here or here are just a couple examples among many that probably generated tons of money for CIG due to the "information" given, and then not delivered as stated.



8+ years. As we can all see every day it is not just bugs but fundamental flaws in design and poor workmanship that are still being carried through all this time. Either way, weather it is due to the omnipresent bugs or to design flaws and incompetence the end result is the same: Such features can not be considered delivered, they simply do not work reliably enough, or at all. After 8+ years.

Indeed. Most open development is worthless when what you are talking about is a load of poo poo.
 
Most transparent dev ever as long as you ignore all the stuff they are not transparent about....

When Star Marine was meant to arrive in 2015 but didn't, where was the transparency?
When patch 3.0 was meant to arrive in December 2016 but didn't, where was the transparency?
When Squadron 42 was meant to arrive in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2020 but didn't, where was the transparency?

It is absolutely absurd to call them the most transparent devs.

Chris Roberts: We don't need to make Star Marine a seperate module. Its already part of the game.
One enternity later....
CR: We are adding Star Marine as a separate module.
 
Let's not forget that time they changed engines without telling anyone until six months later.
Or that time they gave away backer-funded assets to a third party without telling anyone until six months later.
Or that other time they gave away backer-funded assets to a third party without telling anyone until six months later.

All while singing their own praises about how everything was going swimmingly with everything, especially the funding and the engine development.
They're not only wholly opaque, but are actively and continuously lying about the state of the game and the company.

Or how they had sold 10% of the company (that backers paid to build) to a third party only 6 months after it happened.

Realy transparency right there!

But LittleAnt assures us its fine, they don't have to be transparent about important things like selling part of the company.

I wonder what % of the company CR can sell before LittleAnt starts to think something might be a bit off about it.
 
Someone on SA posed a number of questions regarding server meshing.

How will server meshing handle visibility between servers?
How will server meshing handle physics interactions between entities on different servers?
How will server meshing handle migrating between servers (on foot / in a ship)?
How will server meshing handle dynamically splitting a space into 2 or more new spaces?
How will server meshing handle combining 2 or more spaces into a single space?
How is the size of a space partition determined? Are they divided in half? Into Octrees?
How will the game simulation run in spaces that are not occupied by any players? Will it still require a server instance?
What is the density limit of a server partition?
How do you accomplish any of this without introducing noticeable lag, stuttering, or loading to the client?

Showing more thought about this than your average citizen and possibly more thought about it than CIG themselves.
 
Yes they are the 'most' transparent. Do you know one game giving more info than CIG about its alpha ?
You know you open the flank to a lot of counter-examples here... It's actually one of the most opaque, lie-ridden, backtracking, revisionist, project timeline. No one can really tell the structure of CiG management, or how many shell companies they are using, or where is the kickstarter money has been spent. No one knows what they are doing on the core engine of the game, we just have the superficial fluff (graphics, ships, useless side features).. And mostly no one knows what is the direction of the project, or the planned timeline.
And yeah, there are many good examples of transparent development that was a lot clearer than what CiG are doing.

Bugs because alpha ?
I've tested quite a few alphas, this one stands out with bugs being present for half a decade and not being fixed ever, and actually new bugs appearing on top of them, adding to the pile, while little else is accomplished. For example i was in Infinity Battlescape alpha, and this one got quickly a lot better than anything SC has to offer in terms of space combat, and the alpha actually was a focus test to fix bugs, which they did, and the MMO networking, which they did too. They are now focusing on fluff... proper order of development.
I'm sorry but 8 years after the start of the project, with such a big dev team, the state of the project is a joke, try and show it, without any explanation to anyone not aware of it. And i mean not screenshots, but the whole thing in action. FTR latest video is a good example, and he actually cut off a lot of long boring parts out of it..
 
How many shell companies do they have at the last count? Still got the Cayman Islands outpost?

The latest list for the US group comes to 9 companies:

83E8Knu_d.jpg


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The UK seems to have 5? (IE Cloud Imperium UK Ltd + these 4 subsidiaries)

j51Zas9_d.jpg


Germany seems to have 1 currently?:

Roberts Space Industries Germany GMBH

Although you can throw Ortwin’s TwinBros companies into the mix in both the US & Germany seemingly, as they’ve supposedly handled sales & refunds.

The Cayman Islands companies were all for the Calders share purchase, not CIG’s, iirc.

Here’s DS’s old list from 2016 for a historical backdrop. And the fan wiki isn’t bad

I’ve probably got some of that wrong, because it’s a bit confusing.

And also absolutely and completely normal...
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
The latest list for the US group comes to 9 companies:

83E8Knu_d.jpg


unknown.png


The UK seems to have 5? (IE Cloud Imperium UK Ltd + these 4 subsidiaries)

j51Zas9_d.jpg


Germany seems to have 1 currently?:

Roberts Space Industries Germany GMBH

Although you can throw Ortwin’s TwinBros companies into the mix in both the US & Germany seemingly, as they’ve supposedly handled sales & refunds.

The Cayman Islands companies were all for the Calders share purchase, not CIG’s, iirc.

Here’s DS’s old list from 2016 for a historical backdrop. And the fan wiki isn’t bad

I’ve probably got some of that wrong, because it’s a bit confusing.

And also absolutely and completely normal...

By the backers, for the backers. Nothing in this 15+ company shell structure is intended to divert any backer funds from the development of SC and SQ42 or to avoid any of the accountability for what they have sold but not yet delivered.
 
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