Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[TiberiusDuval]

Do you guys like suffering the effects of FDEV's ill concieved game design? Because that's what it sounds like to me. Like Ethelred said, the objectively reality of Open Play doesn't care about your feelings. It is what it is. Adapt to it, or go pound sand.

Or as I've said multiple times in this thread now: choose your mode, adapt accordingly. You can't control what others do, only how you deal with it.

If you're just going to reject this as mere "blaming" then I'll leave you to your filth.

In these discussions certain people justify their behauviour with "I can do whatever I want, and you cannot call it rude, because it is allowed by rules" argument. Maybe so. But you can be obnoxious or rude even while abiding rules. I could join local -group in real life, it is not against law itself. Group can be perfectly legal. But I really suspect that me arguing with same argument would not help much against some people thinking that I'm bad person. I could even join to that group as practical joke but it still wouldn't help me.

Okay its just a game. And person being nuisance in game may be great person IRL. That may be so. Though I must say that I have some difficulties on that, because, well call me unimaginative I tend to be "good guy" even in games. Maybe even somewhat than in real life

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Open fails PVPers because: the PVPers have been forced to play alongside the PVEers and made to feel like actual monsters when they play the game literally as intended, per its creator's own words.

That's funny... I don't feel like a monster.

Spoiler

 

[Danquememe]

That's funny... I don't feel like a monster.

A fish doesn't know it's wet, does it?!

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Okay its just a game. And person being nuisance in game may be great person IRL. That may be so. Though I must say that I have some difficulties on that, because, well call me unimaginative I tend to be "good guy" even in games. Maybe even somewhat than in real life

RPing yourself is beginner level stuff. So, yes, I dare say your imagination needs some work.

And just like how you can't extrapolate who someone is from being a bad guy in Elite you can't do the same for those players that play good guys.

Heck, the most toxic players around are so-called lawfuls. You've seen it yourself.

A fish doesn't know it's wet, does it?!

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Heck, the most toxic players around are so-called lawfuls. You've seen it yourself.

Well I really cannot compare who are most toxic, but lawfulls certainly have their own toxic cadre

 

[CaptainPugwash]

It's very true - I survived Sir Ganksalot in an A-rated Cobra Mk III! That should be a t-shirt.

Unfortunately, the Cobra Mk III pilot below did not pass their randomly-selected gank evasion test last night. This was not as part of the Sir Ganksalot effort, it was just a random CMDR that I pulled on my way from one place to another.

I have blocked out the CMDR's name to avoid any naming and shaming. There is zero shame in being ganked, for that matter. It's a part of the game - in Open - and it happens to everyone from time to time. I myself was ganked multiple times in the course of my play session last night!

In any event, I am presenting the screenshot as evidence that I am living up to my commitment, made in this very thread, to not be a silent killer, but instead engage in communication with the people I pull. Because one of the things that I've learned from this thread is that many players feel this would be a better, more engaging way of doing my play style. So why not!

View attachment 185076

I also sent a friend request afterwards, which was accepted only long enough for this CMDR to send me a rather salty and profanity laden message.

If the CMDR hadn't immediately unfriended me, I would have been happy to give them feedback on their test. They actually did make some efforts at evasion, unlike many CMDRs who straight line boost to their doom.

I certainly approve of the extra effort regarding comms, but I still don’t understand the satisfaction in killing him: why not go one step further and disable without killing, then try and engage him? In the past I have tried things like “denounce the imperials and you may live”, at which point who knows how it’ll finish

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's very true - I survived Sir Ganksalot in an A-rated Cobra Mk III! That should be a t-shirt.

Unfortunately, the Cobra Mk III pilot below did not pass their randomly-selected gank evasion test last night. This was not as part of the Sir Ganksalot effort, it was just a random CMDR that I pulled on my way from one place to another.

I have blocked out the CMDR's name to avoid any naming and shaming. There is zero shame in being ganked, for that matter. It's a part of the game - in Open - and it happens to everyone from time to time. I myself was ganked multiple times in the course of my play session last night!

In any event, I am presenting the screenshot as evidence that I am living up to my commitment, made in this very thread, to not be a silent killer, but instead engage in communication with the people I pull. Because one of the things that I've learned from this thread is that many players feel this would be a better, more engaging way of doing my play style. So why not!

View attachment 185076

I also sent a friend request afterwards, which was accepted only long enough for this CMDR to send me a rather salty and profanity laden message.

If the CMDR hadn't immediately unfriended me, I would have been happy to give them feedback on their test. They actually did make some efforts at evasion, unlike many CMDRs who straight line boost to their doom.

That must have been like the most stressful driving test ever.

I'd pay good money to bribe an examiner to say that and for me to hide in the back of the car.

 

[Danquememe]

Okay its just a game. And person being nuisance in game may be great person IRL. That may be so. Though I must say that I have some difficulties on that, because, well call me unimaginative I tend to be "good guy" even in games. Maybe even somewhat than in real life

There's an important distinction to draw here - if someone engaging you in Open is a nuisance for you, but that kind of engagement is an advertised feature of the game, and in fact part of the richness of the game's experience, according to its creator - then, well... where is the actual breakdown here?

I'm not saying PVE-seeking co-op players should not play in Open. I think they should, and I love doing co-op in Open with my friends.

But co-op, or merely existing, in Open means that you're going to be subject to everything Open has to offer. That's a feature of the game. That's what is promised in the marketing materials and by the game's creator.

This thread has shown me that Open isn't really the place to provide that "safe space" for PVP-free co-op experiences of the kind you can have in other games, ones that were created with co-op as their primary focus. Elite's Open mode is simply a different beast, altogether.

You're entitled to your opinions about the choices players make when playing in Open, but there's nothing implicit or otherwise about the mode to suggest that anyone needs to choose to be "nice." In fact, the implication is in fact that players have total freedom, and you should expect the full spectrum of experience when dealing with them in Open.

I mean, that's a reasonable approach, I think to a game that markets a "cutthroat galaxy" where you need to be ready to "stand your ground" and all that.

Just food for thought.

 

[Rubbernuke]

There's an important distinction to draw here - if someone engaging you in Open is a nuisance for you, but that kind of engagement is an advertised feature of the game, and in fact part of the richness of the game's experience, according to its creator - then, well... where is the actual breakdown here?

I'm not saying PVE-seeking co-op players should not play in Open. I think they should, and I love doing co-op in Open with my friends.

But co-op, or merely existing, in Open means that you're going to be subject to everything Open has to offer. That's a feature of the game. That's what is promised in the marketing materials and by the game's creator.

This thread has shown me that Open isn't really the place to provide that "safe space" for PVP-free co-op experiences of the kind you can have in other games, ones that were created with co-op as their primary focus. Elite's Open mode is simply a different beast, altogether.

You're entitled to your opinions about the choices players make when playing in Open, but there's nothing implicit or otherwise about the mode to suggest that anyone needs to choose to be "nice." In fact, the implication is in fact that players have total freedom, and you should expect the full spectrum of experience when dealing with them in Open.

I mean, that's a reasonable approach, I think to a game that markets a "cutthroat galaxy" where you need to be ready to "stand your ground" and all that.

Just food for thought.

Its like expecting exploration in Mad Max really.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Well I don't have problem with that "cuthroat" thing in general, but game design is done with such I'd say idiotic way, that you cannot plan your business rationally. I mean if C&P and security were properly implemented there would be places in galaxy where even in Open unarmed minmaxed space truck is fully secure and you could plan your route accordingly to be on safe side. On other hand if you want to risk it, you could choose certain other places to do business. Current system really does not allow such way. Mostly of course, galaxy being big, and real humans rare, aside from certain player hotspots you are about as safe as in solo.

BUT it should be like lets say some people are running say charity stream, and if they do that in high sec system, it should be safe to do. If they it in low sec or anarchy system, well that is asking trouble....

 

[Rubbernuke]

but game design is done with such I'd say idiotic way, that you cannot plan your business rationally.

? You can plot a different course, kit out your ship in advance, learn a few skills. To me that is planning rationally. You are taking into account every variable you can.

 

[Danquememe]

I certainly approve of the extra effort regarding comms, but I still don’t understand the satisfaction in killing him: why not go one step further and disable without killing, then try and engage him? In the past I have tried things like “denounce the imperials and you may live”, at which point who knows how it’ll finish

I actually did that later, with a Novice I found in a Sidewinder. I pulled them, posted the message about the gank evasion test, gave them a moment to read it, and saw that they immediately began evasive action. I fired a single volley at them to let them know I was serious, and then spent the rest of the "encounter" coaching them, via Local chat, on what they should be doing to survive. I mostly held my fire, besides a couple near-misses intended to keep it meaningful.

They got away without shields but with 85% hull. Was really proud to see that they high waked and didn't low wake (I would have pulled them again and killed them - low waking is an automatic F in a gank evasion test).

They didn't accept my friend request or I would have absolutely congratulated them afterwards.

Granted, I could have killed this player, but didn't. Some people would find that choice insulting, or pulling them without killing them a type of griefing. There's no pleasing everyone, but I wanted the folks still following this thread to know that I am hearing them, and following through on the commitments I've made here.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

? You can plot a different course, kit out your ship in advance, learn a few skills. To me that is planning rationally. You are taking into account every variable you can.

If I had one of those paperships and running cargo missions, I'd plot route somewhat carefully. Even in solo. But there staying away from low secs and anarchies is enough, and well thats kind of rational. Keep away from places where robbers are. In open those sec ratings are effectively meaningless. Okay bad guy eventually gets attention of ATR, but from victims point of view that comes way too late.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If I had one of those paperships and running cargo missions, I'd plot route somewhat carefully. Even in solo. But there staying away from low secs and anarchies is enough, and well thats kind of rational. Keep away from places where robbers are. In open those sec ratings are effectively meaningless. Okay bad guy eventually gets attention of ATR, but from victims point of view that comes way too late.

But in Open you can know hot systems, and either build accordingly or go somewhere else. Its like with explorers thinking is sane to fly into Shin Dez to unload all that data and live.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

I actually did that later, with a Novice I found in a Sidewinder. I pulled them, posted the message about the gank evasion test, gave them a moment to read it, and saw that they immediately began evasive action. I fired a single volley at them to let them know I was serious, and then spent the rest of the "encounter" coaching them, via Local chat, on what they should be doing to survive. I mostly held my fire, besides a couple near-misses intended to keep it meaningful.

They got away without shields but with 85% hull. Was really proud to see that they high waked and didn't low wake (I would have pulled them again and killed them - low waking is an automatic F in a gank evasion test).

They didn't accept my friend request or I would have absolutely congratulated them afterwards.

Granted, I could have killed this player, but didn't. Some people would find that choice insulting, or pulling them without killing them a type of griefing. There's no pleasing everyone, but I wanted the folks still following this thread to know that I am hearing them, and following through on the commitments I've made here.

Fine story. I'd have accepted your friend request if have been in place of that Sidewinder pilot

 

[CaptainPugwash]

I actually did that later, with a Novice I found in a Sidewinder. I pulled them, posted the message about the gank evasion test, gave them a moment to read it, and saw that they immediately began evasive action. I fired a single volley at them to let them know I was serious, and then spent the rest of the "encounter" coaching them, via Local chat, on what they should be doing to survive. I mostly held my fire, besides a couple near-misses intended to keep it meaningful.

They got away without shields but with 85% hull. Was really proud to see that they high waked and didn't low wake (I would have pulled them again and killed them - low waking is an automatic F in a gank evasion test).

They didn't accept my friend request or I would have absolutely congratulated them afterwards.

Granted, I could have killed this player, but didn't. Some people would find that choice insulting, or pulling them without killing them a type of griefing. There's no pleasing everyone, but I wanted the folks still following this thread to know that I am hearing them, and following through on the commitments I've made here.

Granted, you can’t please everyone, and you the ganker aren’t doing that at all, but my previous question about the pleasure in straight killing has rarely been answered: do you actually find pleasure/fun in killing an easy opponent? I won’t judge you badly if you do, I’m just curious. I have a suspicion that a lot of gankers are bored and don’t even get much pleasure in killing cmdrs. Obviously I’m not talking about fights with a strong opponent, where the pleasure is about winning, and the kill just formalizes the win.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Granted, you can’t please everyone, and you the ganker aren’t doing that at all, but my previous question about the pleasure in straight killing has rarely been answered: do you actually find pleasure/fun in killing an easy opponent?

For me it is fun. You never know what you're going to get. That one really good mark out of dozens makes it all worthwhile.

There's also the emergent politics around such an act... I like kicking the nest, see what comes out. So to speak.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

For me it is fun. You never know what you're going to get. That one really good mark out of dozens makes it all worthwhile.

There's also the emergent politics around such an act... I like kicking the nest, see what comes out. So to speak.

I see your point about the variety (that why I like pvp piracy), but I don’t really follow what you mean about a good mark: you mean killing a good opponent?

 

[TiberiusDuval]

But in Open you can know hot systems, and either build accordingly or go somewhere else. Its like with explorers thinking is sane to fly into Shin Dez to unload all that data and live.

Yes. I don't fly data to Shin Dez in Open. Simply because I know what could happen On other I don't have paperships apart from that explo Krait, and even that has some sort of shields. (Enough that I managed to get away when I went to look at Thargoid USS, thinking that they would not fire because I did not have AX stuff on my ship. I was wrong, it was like kicked hornets nest, but Krait managed to stay together long enough for FSD to spool up....)

 

[Klarg]

For a LOT of players Elite is NOT about that.

I get that, really I do. Elite is not about PvP for me either, I like trading. But the game is not just about exploration or trade. It includes combat and it specifically gives you the means to defend yourself whilst trading or exploring. To get upset that you were blown up in a space game where combat is one of the primary features of the game universe makes no sense to me. Shrug, move on, live and learn from it.

Oh, and Call of Duty does actually have a bit of exploration to it. Not on Elite's level, nowhere near, but it does and it's annoying being killed when you have another goal than actual face shooting in mind.