I think the trouble with Frontier, is that they had this grand vision for the game way back when, but when the realities of actual development kicked in that vision was somehow lost along the way. I still have hope that one day we will get a game which combines the scale of Elite, with the complexity of Star Citizen, but until development practices take a major step forward it's probably a forlorn hope.
Frontier discusses walking in ships in Dev Plan
- Thread starter Tsunamicom
- Start date
I think the trouble with Frontier, is that they had this grand vision for the game way back when, but when the realities of actual development kicked in that vision was somehow lost along the way. I still have hope that one day we will get a game which combines the scale of Elite, with the complexity of Star Citizen, but until development practices take a major step forward it's probably a forlorn hope.
Long ago, the suburb where I live was originally proposed to be on a railway line. The line was surveyed, between City A and City C, back in the mid-1800s, and was specifically intended to bypass City B, because the people in City A hated City B. But before construction even began, City B was proclaimed the new state capital, and the railway's priorities changed to servicing City B - the bypass railway was now unthinkable. Fast forward to today, and you can now take trains from City A to City C - but you have to take a train from A to B, and change trains at B Central Station to get to C. And my suburb now has no railway anywhere near it, and is unlikely to ever get one.
The moral of this story: A roadmap is worthless when they haven't even started building the roads. Even after construction begins, priorities will almost certainly change; end-goals may still be reached but by a different route than originally announced. it's best to consider any mileposts that happen to be reached as per the original roadmap, to be "fortunate coincidences" rather than "achieved goals". Mileposts that get bypassed completely are unfortunate byproducts of the re-prioritization.
The moral of this story: A roadmap is worthless when they haven't even started building the roads. Even after construction begins, priorities will almost certainly change; end-goals may still be reached but by a different route than originally announced. it's best to consider any mileposts that happen to be reached as per the original roadmap, to be "fortunate coincidences" rather than "achieved goals". Mileposts that get bypassed completely are unfortunate byproducts of the re-prioritization.
He also said he did not want the game to be about spreadsheets. Then Engineers were introduced in a way, that you either don't really care about those or require some tool to handle all the different blue prints, materials, data and how to obtain them.
![BigBANGtheory [VR]](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/71/71385.jpg?1644873788){kind=avatar}
"Ah, the suffering. The sweet, sweet suffering."
Clive Barker's - Hellraiser
So you want to lift me on the same position as DB?
It is one thing to design the BGS and expand it without having a certain complexity. But Engineers are completely separated, there was basically nothing that restricted FDev (besides maybe the established game world) and forced them to implement this vast number of mats. For instance, let's imagine the variety of mats and data is cut by 50%. Would this make the game less fun?
It is not much of a development plan, but a design philosophy. It like saying "I don't want this game to be about violence" for only then to release Doom.
I didn't target my comment at you, or anyone specifically, I was just getting fed up of people constantly quoting DB from 8 years ago, as if they're not considering that even the best laid plans of mice and men can and do change given time.
![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
Yes plans change but when they do they need to communicate it and not leave everyone confused and seeing different sometimes contradictory design plans ... Esp when so many sales were based off the original plans.
Wow !
An opinion on a forum is hardly comparable to a sales pitch for a product where money was made off that pitch .... Esp when FD could clarify a lot of the confusion with 1 Dev video or even forum post.
If I post something and then later on contradict myself I would be more than happy to clarify what changed my mind if you ask me ESP if I took money for my initial comment .
Fortunately there is no charge for my pearls of "wisdom"
Last edited:
It is comparable, the point is things change over time, as you yourself just said ....
Then you might notice, that my posts strike a different area. Things like "we don't want this to be around spreadsheets" or "we don't want a single meta activity" aren't promises, but game design fundamentals. Why is a user/ customer now being "attacked", if those kinds of fundamentals are challenged? Is it really unreasonable to ask why FDev made mining intentionally OP, destroying economical and activity-balance, progression and plausability of their game world. And on top of that, they balance a new feature around the messed up income. How am I the one being unreasonable now?
What makes you think they did intentionally?
It seems obvious to some of us, that it was unintentional .... but I suppose there is always some who look for blame in anything.
When they introduced the mining expansion and "gold rushes".
Hehe. I kind of feel the same. No kids here, but there were years of playing ED before i even met the woman i am now married to. When actually thinking this over, it boggles my mind.
Braben also mentioned flying in non-tenuous atmospheres in those same videos...
FD also had NPC wingmen you could also give simple commands to in the alpha/beta designs...
Alas...
Again, and this time try to actually answer the question ....
Why do you think it was intentional?
I posit the theory that Frontier made the changes to improve the game, and it had unexpected unintentional results.
Seems very likely this is what happened.
It did seem to take a very long time to resolve though - I think that was the main mistake they made here, the amount of time it was "the norm" made people believe Frontier actually meant for that to happen. (especially when you consider they do tend to be quite quick to remove "money exploits")
It did look like a mistake to me though, a lot of things interlink in the game and predicting some of the outcomes must be kinda tough, especially when there are bugs in there changing the intended result too - a designer might be relying on some system which isn't working as designed.
If you remember FDev was pretty quick fixing credit exploits of all kinds. The "gold rushes" were confirmed by FDev (I guess it was Will).
If the outcome was unexpected by them, I guess they failed hard. But I don't believe that, given they did not bring mining in line for many months now.
Back when there was (more) hope for actual sensible combat (PvE & PvP) and economic balance, via layers of engaging and well planned mechanics...Braben also said this
/thread
But time after time the notion of "well planned" (well designed & well managed) has seemingly been proven to not be possible. eg:-
- CQC - A large development to create a stand alone game now collecting dust for most of the community, instead of invested in the core game.
- Engineering - Which hugely unbalanced PvE and PvP combat, forever.
- Multicrew - A massive development to offer mechanics and gameplay that were basically of little interest to anyone.
- Crime & Punishment - With numerous visits/revamps, it's still largely over complex and ineffective.
- Thargoid Invasion - With little/no investment in mechanics in the preceeding years, the Thargoid Invasion had little to leverage to create the engaging experience it could have been
- Mining 2.0 - Needlessly ill considered mechanics (such as the PWS and sub-surface deposits), with poorly conceived hotspots and hugely skewed economic rewards.
- Fleet Carriers - One of a number of features delayed seemingly just months before release, and then significantly reworked, which when publically tested was shown to be worryingly unbalanced and ill-considered.
Engineering was an alarm bell for the game. A hugely unbalancing mechanic, throwing combat balance under the bus simply to try and give purpose to shallow game loops (time sponges).
Last edited:
lol, and planetary materials, remember the speadsheets for those!
it doesn't lead much hope for Odyssey based on track record to be honest. i certainly won't pre order based on previous experience, even if they throw in a lousy Adder MkII or equivalent pile of trash.