VR support 'not at launch' for Odyssey

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Another oft used comment is along the lines of. ...... But what IF FD chose to use lighting and partial effects which just don't work in VR. This IS possible as some things that look ok in flat screen don't work in VR (or true 3D)
Well if they did that is on FD. They KNEW they were selling a game that they were marketing as built from ground up for VR. They KNEW they were selling a version on a VR only store front whose users expected to be buying a game which would be supported for the life of the game not a dead end approach.

Using particle effects which broke VR should have been off the table from the design phase OR they should only be on the low detail mode with the high detail and VR settings having proper lighting and particle effects not cheap trick short cuts. IF that put the min spec (for VR) up then so be it .
Remember another thing DB chooses to wax lyrical about is how FD are forward thinking happy to put in features not usable by normal gpus of the day just so they will look shiny in the future (see interviews about roller coaster Tycoon 3).

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

And it's not just Coaster Tycoon 3 that 'Braben has extolled the futureproofing FDev do to their games, a couple of years ago there was a video of him explaining that when they make assets for ED they make them suitable for 16k resolution because they know that resolution is going up. Such foresight really sits at odds with the VR in Odyssey, they supported VR when it was superniche, and now they pull the support as its starts gaining traction, huh?

 

[thistle]

Not really - there should not be a need to code two entirely different versions of the game - the game engine already has VR!

...

Where FP mode is concerned, if they have tried to copy mechanics/patterns from other existing FP games rather than following the standard implementation patterns they have been using to date then I can see potential issues that originate from unnecessary UI/Effect rendering "cheat" methods that are incompatible with stereoscopic 3D rendering so would cause a problem for non-VR 3D display technologies (e.g. nVidia 3D Vision).

Whatever way you cut it, you're making the point you refute - the game AS IS works well with VR but due to the seated position, it's entirely different getting the first person sections to a polished level I am quite sure.

 

[thistle]

Actually weasel words means "waffled with out saying anything of any substance and we call them out for weasel words when we hear evasive non-committal banal platitudes, which is seemingly Frontiers Lingua Franca.

Thanks, yes I understand the term, and my point is valid. When hearing an explanation the VR hardliners don't like, because it's not YES or NO due to fdev not having a yes or a no yet, it's "weasel words".

I imagine an fdev employee reading one of our VR literalists here in the forum, demanding "just tell us it's a No gord damn it", and thinking ... really? When it's not? Is that really what you want? Sod them then.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Not really - there should not be a need to code two entirely different versions of the game - the game engine already has VR!

Some game developers try to overthink the VR aspect, that is the key mistake since VR is first and foremost a head-tracking-3D-display. FDev already know how to do this and have done it with every update to date.

Where FP mode is concerned, if they have tried to copy mechanics/patterns from other existing FP games rather than following the standard implementation patterns they have been using to date then I can see potential issues that originate from unnecessary UI/Effect rendering "cheat" methods that are incompatible with stereoscopic 3D rendering so would cause a problem for non-VR 3D display technologies (e.g. nVidia 3D Vision).

The Fallout games (for example) have a mixed level of viability where 3D displays are concerned (possibly one of the reasons Fallout VR needed to be a separate product from Fallout 4 which it is based on) but ED to date has successfully supported VR in a seated-VR/cockpit centric environment and supported non-VR 3D displays.

Yes, there was a release day glitch with the FSS mode effects but they were addressed reasonably quickly and FDev should have learned from the experience and avoided comparable issues with Odyssey. From the sounds of things, it may be the case that they did not and screwed up again by using non stereoscopic-3D-display compliant effects. If so, shame on the FDev management team for letting it happen.

[EDIT]Where X4 and VR is concerned, I have played both X-Rebirth and X-Rebirth VR and appreciate why they are reluctant to add it to X4. The X-Series has enough performance issues with non-VR as it stands (X2 being perhaps the best of of the series for frame rate management) and my experience with X-Rebirth VR was not exactly a pleasant one. ED on the other hand already has a fair and reasonable approach to VR and does not have the same performance concerns that the X-Series does.[/EDIT]

VR in ED is a seated experience that didn't need any changes to the UI to get it to work well. FPP gameplay is a different kettle of fish and would probably need substantial changes to UI elements just to get them useable. Then it's also how the transition works from walking to being in the cockpit. Then you need to think about how movement will work, head tracking, will they be using VR touch controllers, will they use room scale, will they enhance the space ship game VR implementation to be more interactive instead of a glorified head look.

There is a huge amount to think about when it comes to VR in ED and how they should move forward with it and whether it's worth the effort.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

At the minute everything points to Odyssey NOT including walking in ships, which suggests a fade to black animation from pilots seat to planetside, so this could be done in VR as well, and as or if they develop ship interior gameplay, they can do it in a manner that is amenable to VR.

 

[kilvenny]

My issue is that they have sold the game since 2014 always with VR. I can therefore see no logical reason that EDO would not as a minimum have the same VR experience until I leave the pilots seat or my SRV. My guess is someone looked at the work necessary for the walking around to be in VR and saw it as significant cost that could be removed by leaving it out from EDO. The marketers then observed that the game is then not fully VR and you need to remove the VR, so its no longer VR at all, otherwise it doesn't look good in marketing spiel to have partial VR. Since no one at FD plays in VR it was not seen as a big deal. There is no commitment even post launch because that tells you where its considered to be, there is no real rate of return, my guess is because a lot of the VR players are LEP's.

EDO is appealing to the FPS style player, who typically, buy, play for 3 months and move on to the next FPS. My worry for FD is that they find their game by autumn 2021 has a very small user base, because the tranche of VR players who typically played regularly have gone, the FPS new blood has moved on. This game needs to build its player base with committed players, but instead the approach is to maximise short term term cash revenues.

My guess is that when the drop off happens the ship based VR will be switched back on, sadly, by then it will be too late.

 

[Craith]

VR in ED is a seated experience that didn't need any changes to the UI to get it to work well. FPP gameplay is a different kettle of fish and would probably need substantial changes to UI elements just to get them useable. Then it's also how the transition works from walking to being in the cockpit. Then you need to think about how movement will work, head tracking, will they be using VR touch controllers, will they use room scale, will they enhance the space ship game VR implementation to be more interactive instead of a glorified head look.

There is a huge amount to think about when it comes to VR in ED and how they should move forward with it and whether it's worth the effort.

UI: This is hard to answer, if they have an immersive UI, that is a holographic projection on your helmet, it should work in VR too (older headsets might have trouble with resolution, a bigger icons/letters version might be feasuble). If it is a floating Quake style UI, then it will look strange in VR, but would still work. Less ideal though.
Transition: same as in 2D, looks like it is going to be fade to black unfortunately but just getting up works too. Blackout for a moment as a comfort option possible. Skyrim VR does this e.g. during the intro when you move to the chopping block. Forced animations are generally bad, even in 2D, this is not a film.
Movement: same as in 2D, keyboard/controller. No teleport. They could add a comfort mode, where you move your avatar (and hitbox) while remaining stationary, then teleport to its current location, but for baseline it is not needed.
Headtracking: look around is just headlook, aiming is done by mouse/controller, same as in 2D.
VR touch controllers: No. This is not Halflife:Alyx. It might be nice to be able to use them, it also adds a lot of additional problems (tracking of hands and model moving in concert, properly animating the avatar to not look freaky, ...).
Roomscale: Limited, no moving through walls - just stop movement if you hit a wall. Won't look more stupid than a player in 2D running against a wall and continuing. Currently you can move through your cockpit walls, but currently no collisions are implemented - they need to do that anyhow for 2D
Enhance space ship VR: No. It would be nice to, I even started a thread about it here but it is not needed for VR in Odyssey.

The above is a very baseline VR version, that needs little to no adjustments from 2D mode.

Of course more is always better, but noone very few are asking for that. It won't outdo Halflife:Alyx in the FPS part, but it is a different game. You can't fly a spaceship in Alyx.

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

How funny would it be if fdev just said 'no VR at launch' so all the forum fanatics would do half their job for them by think through any possibly difficulties for them so all they'll have to do is code it in. Its working real well too, any problem anyone has conceived so far has been met quickly with what seems like a working solution.

 

[amigacooke {macOS}]

How funny would it be if fdev just said 'no VR at launch' so all the forum fanatics would do half their job for them by think through any possibly difficulties for them so all they'll have to do is code it in. Its working real well too, any problem anyone has conceived so far has been met quickly with what seems like a working solution.

Hmmm, nice thought but the evidence base is quite low.

It's a good thing that VR peeps are talking about Odyssey, because it seems to me (in the singular) that there is a severe lack of enthusiasm for Odyssey at this stage. Trepidation is a better description.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

UI: This is hard to answer, if they have an immersive UI, that is a holographic projection on your helmet, it should work in VR too (older headsets might have trouble with resolution, a bigger icons/letters version might be feasuble). If it is a floating Quake style UI, then it will look strange in VR, but would still work. Less ideal though.

We don't know and that's the issue. We need to wait and see before we can judge. Most of the time the is far too big because it needs to be scaled up for a monitor to be readable.

Transition: same as in 2D, looks like it is going to be fade to black unfortunately but just getting up works too. Blackout for a moment as a comfort option possible. Skyrim VR does this e.g. during the intro when you move to the chopping block. Forced animations are generally bad, even in 2D, this is not a film.

This is an assumption. We have no idea what transitions are going to look like.

Movement: same as in 2D, keyboard/controller. No teleport. They could add a comfort mode, where you move your avatar (and hitbox) while remaining stationary, then teleport to its current location, but for baseline it is not needed.

I agree but it will still need work for it to be smooth for VR and people were already complaining about having to use another controller then their Hotas.

Headtracking: look around is just headlook, aiming is done by mouse/controller, same as in 2D.

It's not the same though.

VR touch controllers: No. This is not Halflife:Alyx. It might be nice to be able to use them, it also adds a lot of additional problems (tracking of hands and model moving in concert, properly animating the avatar to not look freaky, ...).

I never mention HL Alyx. There people that find it desirable.

Roomscale: Limited, no moving through walls - just stop movement if you hit a wall. Won't look more stupid than a player in 2D running against a wall and continuing. Currently you can move through your cockpit walls, but currently no collisions are implemented - they need to do that anyhow for 2D

Didn't talk about collisions, I'm talking about implementation.

Enhance space ship VR: No. It would be nice to, I even started a thread about it here but it is not needed for VR in Odyssey.

Maybe for you. Others may feel differently.

The above is a very baseline VR version, that needs little to no adjustments from 2D mode.

Is that what you want. My fear is that they add a poor baseline VR experience and call it a day. I would prefer they throw the kitchen sink at it. If they are going to do it, do it right.

Of course more is always better, but noone very few are asking for that. It won't outdo Halflife:Alyx in the FPS part, but it is a different game. You can't fly a spaceship in Alyx.

I'm not expecting HL: Alyx eitherband haven't asked for it. I would just prefer something more then the bare minimum.

 

[Stigbob]

Another oft used comment is along the lines of. ...... But what IF FD chose to use lighting and partial effects which just don't work in VR. This IS possible as some things that look ok in flat screen don't work in VR (or true 3D)
Well if they did that is on FD. They KNEW they were selling a game that they were marketing as built from ground up for VR. They KNEW they were selling a version on a VR only store front whose users expected to be buying a game which would be supported for the life of the game not a dead end approach.

Using particle effects which broke VR should have been off the table from the design phase OR they should only be on the low detail mode with the high detail and VR settings having proper lighting and particle effects not cheap trick short cuts. IF that put the min spec (for VR) up then so be it .
Remember another thing DB chooses to wax lyrical about is how FD are forward thinking happy to put in features not usable by normal gpus of the day just so they will look shiny in the future (see interviews about roller coaster Tycoon 3).

Making it clear VR for Odyssey wouldn't be supported at launch does clearly demonstrate forward thinking by FDEV though.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Making it clear VR for Odyssey wouldn't be supported at launch does clearly demonstrate forward thinking by FDEV though.

Yeah, they have great talent in deciding what not to do.

 

[Craith]

@-VR- Max Factor I didn't actually aimed my post at you, you just provided a nice list of the most often seen problems. Personally I want more than just the baseline, but this baseline is something I don't understand why they won't provide it at launch (or a month later if absolutely needed).

 

[Stigbob]

Yeah, they have great talent in deciding what not to do.

They haven't decided not to do it though, they've just been honest with you that it won't be supported at launch. Two very different things.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

@-VR- Max Factor I didn't actually aimed my post at you, you just provided a nice list of the most often seen problems. Personally I want more than just the baseline, but this baseline is something I don't understand why they won't provide it at launch (or a month later if absolutely needed).

Because the baseline is not very good. The ship experience is great, I and it seems Fdev want the legs part to be great in VR too . Seems fair enough to me.

 

[Craith]

Because the baseline is not very good. The ship experience is great, I and it seems Fdev want the legs part to be great in VR too . Seems fair enough to me.

And if that is the case, I will be happy. But I won't be happy if the great is to much work so we get nothing instead.

 

[VR Golgot]

Personally I want more than just the baseline, but this baseline is something I don't understand why they won't provide it at launch (or a month later if absolutely needed).

What you’re describing is too far below industry standards. They honestly can‘t market such a hacky / feature-light build as an AA+ VR-ready title. Just look at the market, and what most successful titles provide for character gameplay in 2020. The stuff that they have in common, that’s the baseline really. (And that means motion controllers at least, and all the extra dev that flows from that new input method).

Come support the experimental branch proposal instead . It pitches for everything you’re suggesting, just not as an official, marketed launch product. More a piece of fan service, until they can get to such a place

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

Hmmm, nice thought but the evidence base is quite low.

It's a good thing that VR peeps are talking about Odyssey, because it seems to me (in the singular) that there is a severe lack of enthusiasm for Odyssey at this stage. Trepidation is a better description.

Idk i think its just the usual doomsayers are louder now that they've potentially recruited the VR crowd since fdev has so thoroughly riled them up with their vague way of (not) telling us their plans

 

[Kelster87]

Optimisation isn't the be all and end all, most long term VR players accustomed to "needing" high end kit to make VR work, think back to 2016 with the Oculus rift looking for two HD pictures at 90hz, hello GTX1080/GTX1080Ti - Other than bitcoin miners I think VR players were the largest initial sales of those two cards. (1080Ti will run elite at 1920x1080 resolution at >200FPS) and the 30 series Nvidia cards are about to release... Were we to struggle with Odyssey VR on our 10/20 series card, we all know how to turn down the settings, and a significant chunk of players would be willing to either buy a new 30 series card, or a used 2080/2080ti.

Optimisation wasn't what I was talking about. It's clear that the ED VR code is far from optimised.. It runs like bottom on my in VR rig which runs pancake in ultra just fine.

I'm talking about the fact it looks like Oculus example code that was bolted on and it may be they can't take quite the same approach, given my previous experiences with the Unreal engine and Source, as well as more recent Source + VR fiddling, the sitdown bit is fairly straightforward, it's everything else where the difficulty lies.