Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

Zieman

Zieman
LittleAnt said:
The product legally sold by CIG (if I don't make mistake) is a future released game (with no date of release given in contract) + an access to the alpha during development. For what I know, CIG respect the legal contract.
Click to expand...
My speculation:
That's what CR wants people to think.
While in reality, they've only sold access to the alpha, which is released (as verified by the court).
Any notion of a "future released game" is just misleading the backers.
So, CR can go one day: "What games? What's released is all there is, lol. Bye folks."
yargh.jpg
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
LittleAnt said:
The product legally sold by CIG (if I don't make mistake) is a future released game (with no date of release given in contract) + an access to the alpha during development. For what I know, CIG respect the legal contract.

For the refund law in EU, it's 14 days but with exception on a lot of products https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/consumer-topics/online-shopping/14-days-to-withdraw/
The french page is more detailed (don't know why) https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu...hats-sur-internet/14-jours-pour-se-retracter/
Click to expand...

From that perspective it is fine. It does however conflict with the occasional statement from CR where he strongly implies he considers the game released. For example, with his interview with Gamestar shortly after 3.0 ALPHA was released.

It also conflicts with what they argued against Streetroller in court.

But this is just typical CIG.

Is it released? Yes or no? Depends on who they are talking to.

Is it one game or two games they are developing? Depends on who they are talking to.
 

Vetinari

V
MTBFritz said:
CIG isnt running....so I m guessing this is planned from long hand and they do have an exit plan
Click to expand...

Im not sure how normal it is for a legal entity such as a Family Trust to buy the home that the family lives in.

You mentioned later that you werent sure if it was a scam at the beginning. I wasnt either so I looked into it.

CR showed Publishers heavily edited videos that implied the games were much nearer completion than they were.
CR told Publishers he just needed X amount and Y more months repeatedly until bought out and sacked. At which point CR admitted it would have taken much more money and time than he had told the Publishers.
CR told Kickstarters he would treat them with the same respect he showed Publishers.
CR showed Kickstarters a proof of concept video by another firm and lied that it was finished product to get money.
CR told Kickstarters it would just need another bit more money and time.
CR & CIG shows heavily edited footage and the Alpha is nowhere near the same stage.
CR on stage shows another video played 'live' by a member of staff on stage to an audience of backers.
CR says it is near completion.
CR says it will be done when its done.

Well he certainly kept his promise to show Kickstarters the same respect he showed Publishers. Including the video lies about finished product to get more money and time, on two separate occasions.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero
LittleAnt said:
The french page is more detailed (don't know why) https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu...hats-sur-internet/14-jours-pour-se-retracter/
Click to expand...

exception N°10 : the supply of digital content not provided on a physical medium if the user had started to use it and has also acknowledged that he or she will thus lose his or her right of withdrawal, (e.g. downloads).
Click to expand...

That is well known and Steam for example, and many other platforms, use that etc. Not a surprise.

But that is precisely the thing, no one has started using the SC or SQ42 games because those have not yet been delivered. In theory, any backer should be able to get a refund for those at any time much like the pre orders for CP2077.

Alas according to CIG's refusal to refund those so far, what seems to have happened is that the backers have indeed been "delivered" instead some kind of Early Access product, which for the most part behave like any other actually released and final product (example Steam Early Access program etc). This principle has been used by CIG in its legal defenses so far against refund requests etc (that is probably also another reason for the SQ42 split from SC).

In other words CIG is behaving as if SC was a regular Early Access game in all but in name. And many backers will also probably refuse to admit SC is an Early Access game.

I can understand CIG's predicament and their lack of formal acknowledgement or labeling: As mentioned, I would expect many of those backers often criticizing incomplete and barebones early access programs (and that have often argued SC delays are ok so for the game to be released only "when it is done") would probably raise an eyebrow if CIG was to clarify to them that SC is in fact an incomplete and barebones Early Access released game. Although I suspect that is in essence one of the only ways for CIG to refuse refunds.
 
Last edited:

Vetinari

V
Theres a few ways to wriggle out of it:

They can say it is released.
They can say you effectively purchased a licence to access the early access or the game and they have delivered.
They can try and say its a non-refundable deposit, where they would have to prove that reasonable costs were incurred by them to give you what you had at which point you turned it down and left them out of pocket. ie you ordered something physical and paid for the materials then turned down the finished product. The company loses the time sometimes but the materials are still yours to pay for, or can be. In this case its mainly time so would have to prove reasonable to hold onto that money.
They can at any time refund you and close your account, completely and totally, against your will, forcing you to rebuy all the access to the stuff you had at the new higher cost.....but they wouldn't do that. Nobody would fall for that. Get a backer in with 500m, refund everyone and sell everything again at twice the price including SQ42 and SC itself. Thats never been done before.....or has it?

They can go bankrupt, but in that case the Auditors would be able to go after any personal and Company assets unless they were held in a separate legal entity such as someone else's name or a legal Trust or another Company. But theres no signs of any preparation for that eventuality.....so buy an Idris and tell your friends!
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Vetinari said:
Theres a few ways to wriggle out of it:

They can say it is released.
They can say you effectively purchased a licence to access the early access or the game and they have delivered.
They can try and say its a non-refundable deposit, where they would have to prove that reasonable costs were incurred by them to give you what you had at which point you turned it down and left them out of pocket. ie you ordered something physical and paid for the materials then turned down the finished product. The company loses the time sometimes but the materials are still yours to pay for, or can be. In this case its mainly time so would have to prove reasonable to hold onto that money.
They can at any time refund you and close your account, completely and totally, against your will, forcing you to rebuy all the access to the stuff you had at the new higher cost.....but they wouldn't do that. Nobody would fall for that. Get a backer in with 500m, refund everyone and sell everything again at twice the price including SQ42 and SC itself. Thats never been done before.....or has it?

They can go bankrupt, but in that case the Auditors would be able to go after any personal and Company assets unless they were held in a separate legal entity such as someone else's name or a legal Trust or another Company. But theres no signs of any preparation for that eventuality.....so buy an Idris and tell your friends!
Click to expand...

They've done all of those except go bankrupt.
 

MTBFritz

MTBFritz
Vetinari said:
Im not sure how normal it is for a legal entity such as a Family Trust to buy the home that the family lives in.

You mentioned later that you werent sure if it was a scam at the beginning. I wasnt either so I looked into it.

CR showed Publishers heavily edited videos that implied the games were much nearer completion than they were.
CR told Publishers he just needed X amount and Y more months repeatedly until bought out and sacked. At which point CR admitted it would have taken much more money and time than he had told the Publishers.
CR told Kickstarters he would treat them with the same respect he showed Publishers.
CR showed Kickstarters a proof of concept video by another firm and lied that it was finished product to get money.
CR told Kickstarters it would just need another bit more money and time.
CR & CIG shows heavily edited footage and the Alpha is nowhere near the same stage.
CR on stage shows another video played 'live' by a member of staff on stage to an audience of backers.
CR says it is near completion.
CR says it will be done when its done.

Well he certainly kept his promise to show Kickstarters the same respect he showed Publishers. Including the video lies about finished product to get more money and time, on two separate occasions.
Click to expand...

All of this is pretty normal for companies selling a product. TV advertisement is doing any number of the things you list. That is overpromising and hyperbole. But the level of refusal to accept lack of results or the actual lack of tangible results (aka no game) is so extreme in Star Citizens case that it simply cannot be compared to other companies anymore. It certainly cannot be compared to Frontier or CD project RED or similar. We all expected some form of delay or compromise I m sure. But there never has been sufficiant results that would explain the timeframe or money spent involved. There always has been enough exucses and reasons provided by the community but Star Citizen itself hasnt provided any. And that is an answer in itself after these many years and so much money.

I m with you on this. CIGs actions and even the voices coming out of the community seem to be designed to gloss over the cracks and keep the majority of people in confusion or sedated. It works for some but doesnt for many more. And the people who actually try to get some answers run into problems or results that point to far uglier answers then just "it aint working".

Granting somebody or something more time or a second chance is fine and often needed to get to the desired result. Thats not a foreign concept or so hard to understand but CIG has abused this concept so thoroughly that it borders on criminal exploitation and it forces the people believing to deny reality in doing so. Ah well not gonna post another wall and if I continue this thought I will so thanks for the feedback mate ^^
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
MTBFritz said:
All of this is pretty normal for companies selling a product. TV advertisement is doing any number of the things you list. That is overpromising and hyperbole. But the level of refusal to accept lack of results or the actual lack of tangible results (aka no game) is so extreme in Star Citizens case that it simply cannot be compared to other companies anymore. It certainly cannot be compared to Frontier or CD project RED or similar. We all expected some form of delay or compromise I m sure. But there never has been sufficiant results that would explain the timeframe or money spent involved. There always has been enough exucses and reasons provided by the community but Star Citizen itself hasnt provided any. And that is an answer in itself after these many years and so much money.

I m with you on this. CIGs actions and even the voices coming out of the community seem to be designed to gloss over the cracks and keep the majority of people in confusion or sedated. It works for some but doesnt for many more. And the people who actually try to get some answers run into problems or results that point to far uglier answers then just "it aint working".

Granting somebody or something more time or a second chance is fine and often needed to get to the desired result. Thats not a foreign concept or so hard to understand but CIG has abused this concept so thoroughly that it borders on criminal exploitation and it forces the people believing to deny reality in doing so. Ah well not gonna post another wall and if I continue this thought I will so thanks for the feedback mate ^^
Click to expand...

So, you are saying CIG are doing something that's never been done before?! Ok, its not a good thing, but its a thing! :D
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom