General Selling prices Risk Multiplier

[Hokran]

This thread was originally titled "Bonus credits for Open play".
Please, read the "Ideas from your feedback" section at the end of this post. There you will find a fix to some problems that the original idea had.

This is an idea I've posted on another thread and I thought that it would be nice to focus an exclusive thread on it. The idea isn't new, but I think that the present context is different from the early game years.

The gold rush and the billionaires:
Do you remember the LTD triple hotspot gold rush? I was there, but I'm not as wealthy as I could be. That is because I was playing in Open Play and I lost my cargo a few times. My cr/hour wasn't astronomical. What I could have done is play in solo mode, but I believe that the lack of risk would break the game for me. As NPCs aren't a real threat, I could have done just like a hundred other pilots and mine in the safety of Solo mode, but I am not in favor of easily becoming a billionaire in this game without real risks. More on this later.
Now we have an economical problem: too many billionaires in the game. Well, at least I believe that everyone here will agree that this is a problem even if you don't agree with the solution I will propose.

Credit balance:
The devs are trying to balance the economy. I'm in favor of it. What I will propose needs to come at the end, after price balances.

What I don't think that should be done:
I know that a lot of players like Solo mode. I wouldn't like to spoil the game for them. Removing solo mode, as many have suggested before, is out of the question.

What I think that could be done:
This forum always calls for a Risk x Reward balance. So, I believe that a Open play bonus should be a part of it.
So, let's use our imagination: Imagine that there is a new triple LTD hotspot* and the new selling price is 400,000 cr/unit. Imagine that, after price balances, this is very lucrative. What I think payment should be:

Solo: 400,000 cr/unit
Open play: 400,000 cr/unit + 100,000 cr/unit

Why?
As I said, I believe that this would be a part of "Risk x Reward" balance. If you want to receive the really good payments, you would have to risk it in Open play. From my point of view, this would benefit the following aspects of the game:

• Fewer billionaires​
• More PvP​
• Incentives for squadrons and escorts for miners​
• Incentives for mixed builds. Building a defenseless miner wouldn't be that great​
• Incentives to explore and find your own mining spot​

All this without taking anything from Solo players. You will be able to keep playing far away from gankers and all that people that bothers you.

How?
As a software developer myself, I believe that this solution might be easy to implement: First, we already have a flag that identifies if a cargo is stolen or not. What I suggest is a flag that will identify if the cargo have passed through solo mode. If you mine it in solo or changed to solo to haul it, it will be flagged as "solo mode cargo". Then, when you reach a station, you won't receive the bonus to sell it.

Conclusion:
If you think that there are disadvantages I might have missed, please write a reply to this thread. I would like to hear your opinion about it.

Have a great day, commanders.
o7

*As said, this is just an example. I know that after balances core mining will probably be the real profitable mining activity.

__​

Ideias from your feedback!

Based on sirus66 and Nadreck replies:

I was thinking about it and I believe that a Risk Multiplier would be even better. An example would be:

RM = 1 + ((number of non-allied players you have crossed paths with) + (number of player interdictions)*15 + (number of player conflicts)*25 + (number of NPC interdictions)*10 + (number of NPC conflicts)*20)/100

So, your selling price would be: (Base Price)*RM
I have included NPCs so Solo players can benefit from the Risk Multiplier too!

 

[sirus66]

I totally agree with this. Perhaps make the bonus as percentage of total transaction value instead of a flat value.

Solo players can still play solo but if they want more they will have to risk it.

 

[Zieman]

I totally agree with this. Perhaps make the bonus as percentage of total transaction value instead of a flat value.

Solo players can still play solo but if they want more they will have to risk it.

Just make the bonus directly proportional to the increased risk: 0.1% or so.

 

[Nadreck]

The problem (actually one of several problems) is that it's not too difficult to be in "Open mode" without actually being instanced with any other players. So you get the extra reward without the risk.

Some even get this advantage automatically. Those in certain timezones, those on non-PC platforms, those with low-quality Internet connections.

 

[Hokran]

The problem (actually one of several problems) is that it's not too difficult to be in "Open mode" without actually being instanced with any other players. So you get the extra reward without the risk.

Some even get this advantage automatically. Those in certain timezones, those on non-PC platforms, those with low-quality Internet connections.

I think it depends. When I was mining on the triple LTD, I have found a good amount of players. I've lost my cargo serveral times. But I also met people who would make a group to protect our mining ships. Those were one of the greatest times I had in this game.
The extra reward would make people try Open play more often. They might not always be in the same instance, but you add it the chance of finding them. The "Col mines" were so populated that it was almost impossible to not find a good amount of players there. But there was the risk of mining for an entire hour and losing it.

But I would like to take your perspective into account. What if the % bonus, as suggested by sirius, was calculated on the amount of non-allied players you have crossed paths with? Greater bonus if you get interdicted. I believe that this would fix most of the problems you pointed out.

Thanks for your constructive reply.

 

[Hokran]

I totally agree with this. Perhaps make the bonus as percentage of total transaction value instead of a flat value.

Solo players can still play solo but if they want more they will have to risk it.

Yes, that is better. I've made changes to the original post to include your suggestion.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

As a software developer myself, I believe that this solution might be easy to implement: First, we already have a flag that identifies if a cargo is stolen or not. What I suggest is a flag that will identify if the cargo have passed through solo mode. If you mine it in solo or changed to solo to haul it, it will be flagged as "solo mode cargo". Then, when you reach a station, you won't receive the bonus to sell it.

What happens if you sell Solo LTDs to a carrier? Does the person later buying it from the carrier in Open get the flag on it or not?
(If the carrier has a mix of Solo and Open LTDs sold to it, then what?)

If you mine some LTDs in Solo, and then return to Open, and then get attacked by a pirate, does the pirate steal Solo LTDs or Open LTDs from you?

Open play: 400,000 cr/unit + 100,000 cr/unit

That bonus implies that around one in five trips in Open are expected to end in you failing.
(If it's less risky than that, it's basically free money ... if it's more risky than that, you still make more in the long run in Solo)

That's really not how risky it is - I (playing daily only in Open) get a player trying to kill me once or twice a year, and they haven't actually succeeded since I upgraded my Freewinder to C-rated. As Zieman says, a 0.1% boost would be more like it, and even that's probably overpaying.

It's a really big galaxy, there aren't many people trying to kill players in it, and most profitable activities can be done at a wide range of locations.

 

[Hokran]

What happens if you sell Solo LTDs to a carrier? Does the person later buying it from the carrier in Open get the flag on it or not?
(If the carrier has a mix of Solo and Open LTDs sold to it, then what?)

If you mine some LTDs in Solo, and then return to Open, and then get attacked by a pirate, does the pirate steal Solo LTDs or Open LTDs from you?


That bonus implies that around one in five trips in Open are expected to end in you failing.
(If it's less risky than that, it's basically free money ... if it's more risky than that, you still make more in the long run in Solo)

That's really not how risky it is - I (playing daily only in Open) get a player trying to kill me once or twice a year, and they haven't actually succeeded since I upgraded my Freewinder to C-rated. As Zieman says, a 0.1% boost would be more like it, and even that's probably overpaying.

It's a really big galaxy, there aren't many people trying to kill players in it, and most profitable activities can be done at a wide range of locations.

I believe that the last section about Risk Multiplier fixes all of these problems.
As for being risky, it is just a matter of when and where you are. As I said, the focus would be the Gold Rush systems. I used to get interdicted at least once at every two hours. Sometimes I lost just part of my cargo, sometimes it was all of it. It was actually pretty common to be interdicted by two or even three players. Once I got a good squadron, we were able to mine and haul some cargo through the Col mines. Pretty fun actually.
It seems that most people have experienced something like that in this game. I recommend that you give it a shot if it happens again. Open play + crowded system = fun.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I believe that the last section about Risk Multiplier fixes all of these problems.

Yes, that would make the payout determined solely by whoever the last person is to handle the cargo, which solves a lot of them. Unfortunately, it introduces some even bigger ones.

RM = 1 + ((number of non-allied players you have crossed paths with) + (number of player interdictions)*15 + (number of player conflicts)*25 + (number of NPC interdictions)*10 + (number of NPC conflicts)*20)/100

So, your selling price would be: (Base Price)*RM

Be right back, just repeatedly interdicting and briefly shooting my friend (then allowing them to low-wake, repeat) so that they can get quadruple pay on their cargo.

EDIT: to clarify, when I say "my friend", I mean someone I know and have arranged this with out of game, not an actual in-game friend. My in-game friend list contains at least a few people who would just try to shoot me on sight if we were ever in the same place...

 

[Northpin]

his thread was originally titled "Bonus credits for Open play".

Open players (and PG ones too) already get sensible bonuses over solo players.
Wing shared missions and trading bonuses, faster gains for winged combat (both bounty and CZ) and so on.
A wing of 4 players can easily get 200 millions per hour by sharing wing massacre CZ missions. In solo i barely get a quarter of that.


IF you want to make it fair, you should demand bonuses for Solo players or penalties for Open/PG players

Currently there is little to no risk for playing in open.
You can block anyone that bothers you or you can play in systems that never see another commander in months.

 

[Brrokk]

This thread was originally titled "Bonus credits for Open play".
Please, read the "Ideas from your feedback" section at the end of this post. There you will find a fix to some problems that the original idea had.

This is an idea I've posted on another thread and I thought that it would be nice to focus an exclusive thread on it. The idea isn't new, but I think that the present context is different from the early game years.

The gold rush and the billionaires:
Do you remember the LTD triple hotspot gold rush? I was there, but I'm not as wealthy as I could be. That is because I was playing in Open Play and I lost my cargo a few times. My cr/hour wasn't astronomical. What I could have done is play in solo mode, but I believe that the lack of risk would break the game for me. As NPCs aren't a real threat, I could have done just like a hundred other pilots and mine in the safety of Solo mode, but I am not in favor of easily becoming a billionaire in this game without real risks. More on this later.
Now we have an economical problem: too many billionaires in the game. Well, at least I believe that everyone here will agree that this is a problem even if you don't agree with the solution I will propose.

Credit balance:
The devs are trying to balance the economy. I'm in favor of it. What I will propose needs to come at the end, after price balances.

What I don't think that should be done:
I know that a lot of players like Solo mode. I wouldn't like to spoil the game for them. Removing solo mode, as many have suggested before, is out of the question.

What I think that could be done:
This forum always calls for a Risk x Reward balance. So, I believe that a Open play bonus should be a part of it.
So, let's use our imagination: Imagine that there is a new triple LTD hotspot* and the new selling price is 400,000 cr/unit. Imagine that, after price balances, this is very lucrative. What I think payment should be:

Solo: 400,000 cr/unit
Open play: 400,000 cr/unit + 100,000 cr/unit

Why?
As I said, I believe that this would be a part of "Risk x Reward" balance. If you want to receive the really good payments, you would have to risk it in Open play. From my point of view, this would benefit the following aspects of the game:

• Fewer billionaires​
• More PvP​
• Incentives for squadrons and escorts for miners​
• Incentives for mixed builds. Building a defenseless miner wouldn't be that great​
• Incentives to explore and find your own mining spot​

All this without taking anything from Solo players. You will be able to keep playing far away from gankers and all that people that bothers you.

How?
As a software developer myself, I believe that this solution might be easy to implement: First, we already have a flag that identifies if a cargo is stolen or not. What I suggest is a flag that will identify if the cargo have passed through solo mode. If you mine it in solo or changed to solo to haul it, it will be flagged as "solo mode cargo". Then, when you reach a station, you won't receive the bonus to sell it.

Conclusion:
If you think that there are disadvantages I might have missed, please write a reply to this thread. I would like to hear your opinion about it.

Have a great day, commanders.
o7

*As said, this is just an example. I know that after balances core mining will probably be the real profitable mining activity.

__​

Ideias from your feedback!

Based on sirus66 and Nadreck replies:

I was thinking about it and I believe that a Risk Multiplier would be even better. An example would be:

RM = 1 + ((number of non-allied players you have crossed paths with) + (number of player interdictions)*15 + (number of player conflicts)*25 + (number of NPC interdictions)*10 + (number of NPC conflicts)*20)/100

So, your selling price would be: (Base Price)*RM
I have included NPCs so Solo players can benefit from the Risk Multiplier too!

The LTD triple hotspot was a unique event. During it, there was increased risk in Open in that one system for people who didn't think carefully about their behaviour in supercruise. The rest of the galaxy was equally dangerous in Open and in Solo. In most times, increased risk in Open is nonexistent unless you deliberately hang around somewhere like Deciat.

So, no thanks.

 

[sirus66]

The LTD triple hotspot was a unique event. During it, there was increased risk in Open in that one system for people who didn't think carefully about their behaviour in supercruise. The rest of the galaxy was equally dangerous in Open and in Solo. In most times, increased risk in Open is nonexistent unless you deliberately hang around somewhere like Deciat.

So, no thanks.

Indeed you bring legitimate concerns. A possible fix would be a "time spent in open" mechanic which will gradually increase the multiplier over time. Switching to Solo or PG would reset it to 0. And if your're thinking that it could be abused by fooling around in the ring for some time after you got the cargo full, then you could have the timer implemented in such a way that doing such a thing would be counter-productive even with all the bonus since you'd waste time waiting for the multiplayer to go up while in Solo you could have made 2 runs.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Open players (and PG ones too) already get sensible bonuses over solo players.
Wing shared missions and trading bonuses, faster gains for winged combat (both bounty and CZ) and so on.
A wing of 4 players can easily get 200 millions per hour by sharing wing massacre CZ missions. In solo i barely get a quarter of that.


IF you want to make it fair, you should demand bonuses for Solo players or penalties for Open/PG players

Currently there is little to no risk for playing in open.
You can block anyone that bothers you or you can play in systems that never see another commander in months.

Well obviously PG can get the best of both worlds, so nerf that hardest if it's an option. Making the whole thing hinge on instancing with hostile players (people you don't have a history of association with, who attack you) would make more sense. It's an odd and, if too transparent, unrealistic mechanic though, to me. Will presumably screw up eddb, etc., too right?

Degrading mining yields in solo/pg might make more sense. If, to really max out that mapped run, you need to do it in open, then that seems more risky to me, as you're probably close to a hotspot/res marker, where someone who knew about the map could drop and have a chance of finding you.

Meanwhile, the top sell location is probably more dangerous currently. Your statement about "no risk in open" only applies in my view to CMDRs with a decent amount of skill (and probably engineering) and/or who use block (ew!), and do so scrupulously. The latter would lose the "dangerous instancing" bonus. I still think even then there'd have to be clever constraints to mitigate exploit, and probably limiting the whole thing to a more modest enhancement.

 

[Brrokk]

Well obviously PG can get the best of both worlds, so nerf that hardest if it's an option. Making the whole thing hinge on instancing with hostile players (people you don't have a history of association with, who attack you) would make more sense. It's an odd and, if too transparent, unrealistic mechanic though, to me. Will presumably screw up eddb, etc., too right?

Degrading mining yields in solo/pg might make more sense. If, to really max out that mapped run, you need to do it in open, then that seems more risky to me, as you're probably close to a hotspot/res marker, where someone who knew about the map could drop and have a chance of finding you.

Meanwhile, the top sell location is probably more dangerous currently. Your statement about "no risk in open" only applies in my view to CMDRs with a decent amount of skill (and probably engineering) and/or who use block (ew!), and do so scrupulously. The latter would lose the "dangerous instancing" bonus. I still think even then there'd have to be clever constraints to mitigate exploit, and probably limiting the whole thing to a more modest enhancement.

Um. You only need to be 12km from a hotspot marker to be impossible to find. How big are hotspots again?

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Um. You only need to be 12km from a hotspot marker to be impossible to find. How big are hotspots again?

Mapped runs often start near the marker I think (I've only looked at a few), and may have numerous targets within sensor range of it. Regardless, if you follow the same map, you have a chance to find the commander. Laser fire shows up at very long distances (can't comment on core method visibility). Mapped runs are where pre-nerf >500mcr/hr rates could be got.

 

[Brrokk]

Mapped runs often start near the marker I think (I've only looked at a few), and may have numerous targets within sensor range of it. Regardless, if you follow the same map, you have a chance to find the commander. Laser fire shows up at very long distances (can't comment on core method visibility). Mapped runs are where pre-nerf >500mcr/hr rates could be got.

I think mapped mining is actually a small proportion of total mining activity. If the extra risk in Open is that if I'm mapped mining a FdL player might follow the same map at the same time and thus find me, I think it's negligible.

Should I still get the same Open-reward buff if I don't drop at the centre of the hotspot?

 

[sirus66]

Should I still get the same Open-reward buff if I don't drop at the centre of the hotspot?

Yes. Someone is bound to interdict you on your way back to sell.

 

[Taifu]

Choosing to take a (debatable) extra risk when you play the game should be reward enough.

Play your own way (within the rules) and all that.

 

[Brrokk]

Yes. Someone is bound to interdict you on your way back to sell.

I'd consider that low probability too. When mining I exit the ring by high-wake (I guess all miners do; there's no reason not to). A would-be interceptor would have to guess what system I would jump to next and how many jumps I'd do.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. It's not hard to find miners because they're in Solo; it's hard to find them because space is big. For the miner, Open isn't significantly more dangerous than Solo.

 

[sirus66]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

No, I think you are. You fail to understand the fact that players would wait at your selling point. Not where you mine. It's painfully obvious. And since everyone checks up highest prices in third party tools there's only few logical places they would be. And once you drop in the selling system you are easy target for interdiction.

Open IS significantly more dangerous. Especially for mining and community goals.