C'mon, this is faintly ridiculous.

[killerofstars]

Or we can ask for this one to be changed according to our tastes. There is, after all, a precedent.

"Please Frontier make the game even MORE grindy." That's what you're asking for. You're asking to force players to do boring repetitive tasks MORE to earn the ships they want to earn.

Seriously, Jukelo, what do you do for a living that your fantasies just aren't grindy enough?

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Really?
That’s what you get from my posts?

Ok well either I haven’t explained myself properly, you have misunderstood, or you’re being deliberately provocative...

Sorry not your posts in particular, should've made it more clear. I'm just puzzled why people who have passed this section of the game, insist everyone that follows them does so at the same pace. It doesn't seem to be coming from a place of normal complaint, IE "This change has messed my experience up" but rather "I liked it this way, so probably everyone else would as well."

Anyway, this is basically "Back In My Day, The Thread" So I probably should've avoided it. Same old stuff that repeats itself after a delay is announced and people don't have much to talk about.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Anyway, this is basically "Back In My Day, The Thread" So I probably should've avoided it. Same old stuff that repeats itself after a delay is announced and people don't have much to talk about.

I disagree, (being one of the more disagreeable types here, I'd have you know ) if only because I've enjoyed the differing viewpoints presented equally!

It was harder to earn credits when I started than now, and I only started 3 years or so ago - it was fine and great as I was learning a lot for the first year or so anyway.

With the 'progress' since I can make as many credits as I have the patience to raise (like raising enough for a 2nd Fleet Carrier for this account over 6 days) which has given me the opportunity to go and spend silly amounts of credits putting together a 'fleet' of the ships I never tried previously, or perhaps only briefly as - being honest - I didn't have the skill to fly them well.

I appreciated the progress in my starting days, but an getting even more fun now because I can go and be 'silly' without being overly concerned about making what would have been costly mistakes.

 

[Morbad]

The economy feels very robust to me.

What economy?

The game has no demographic or supply chain simulation, just a disconnected scaffold of commodity supply and demand that exists in a near vacuum. CMDR trade and the system states they induce can affect commodity prices, but these effects don't extend beyond that; collapse of one market leaves others that should be interconnected totally unscathed and most activities that should rationally influence market forces do not. You can massacre whole fleets of trade ships in system with a population of a few dozen and the only thing that changes is the system state moves a few ticks toward 'civil unrest'. Prices of ships or parts, or the raw materials to make them do not increase. Outposts do not suffer from lack of trade. Populations don't change.

CMDR equipment and insurance are even more nonsensical and artificial. You can blow up ships ad infinitum and a replace is always available, whereever you happen to wind up, for 5% (or less) of what you paid for it.

In all cases, prices are divorced from money supply, and money supply is functionally infinite. Any pretense to scarcity has to be artifical, but if the game were to acknowledge that, most intended gameplay loops would be upended.

At best, we have a very flimsy pseudoeconomy with marginal depth and reactivity. It feels like a placeholder in an alpha, but the alpha of this game actually had a more fleshed out system.

I've put a lot of hours into the game in a short period of time and I've been rewarded with money and ships. Shouldn't that be how it's supposed to work?

That's not an economy, that's an arbitrary progression system/content gating mechanism. It used to reinforce the game's pseudoeconomy, but now it mostly just emphasizes it's absurdity.

Personally, I like a sense of progression, but this should come from logical and internally consistent interactions between the various mechanisms that define the constraints of the setting, not arbitrary gating.

So if someone says "it should take at least six months to get an Anaconda", then that means it should take six months of continuously grinding the top activity over and over and over ...

This isn't what I want, or what I think most people who have issues with the current pacing of the game want.

From my perspective, it would perfectly fine if a brand new Odyssey player, who was particularly fortunate, was able to log into their first session, bypass some station security protocols (or just kill everyone on an outpost in a system with a population of 22), and fly away with the most expensive ship stored in the hangar. However, I want that ship to have to have come from somewhere. It's provenance could be simulated or abstracted, but it's value should be reflected in the time and resources spent creating it, and it's absence should have impact and consequence. That ship would still exist in the setting, and it could be stolen right back, or destroyed...as long as everything had to come from somewhere, balance would be easy to maintain, no matter what logical shortcuts were possible.

Nowadays with a much larger player base than in 1.0 ways to earn money quickly get found faster, get documented faster, get used widely faster ... but they've always been there. At least the current money-makers involve playing the game rather than spending an hour board-flipping then an hour sleeping in supercruise ... or selling mission cargo back to the source station ... or parking a turret boat next to a friendly capital ship in a CZ and leaving it logged in overnight.

The magnitude of 'earnings' has still increased dramatically, and most of these examples were unintentional bug exploits that were patched out. The greatest offenders in the current game's radical inflation of credit supply are entirely deliberate, and this is a fundamental shift in the game's flavor.

The Elite series has never been one where the money needed for a fully-upgraded ship has been difficult to obtain if you know how)

Prior titles in the franchise were all single player and it's far easier to excuse or overlook such issues in single player titles because it's ultimately up to the individual player to set their own pace...there is no competition from other player characters, and no one to be beholden to. This is not the case for a persistent, shared, multiplayer setting...balance matters, because what other players are doing matters.

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

Commodity markets, supply, demand, and relationship to the BGS

The operation of the commodity markets is an often observed part of the game, but most analysis so far has been on how to use it to gain influence. The fine details of its operation as a mechanism in itself have received less attention (since they're rarely relevant to either BGS influence...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Idk this seems a lot like an economy to me. Just because it isn't readily on display and easily seen doesn't mean it isn't there. Obviously these fine cmdrs had no problem seeing it without a huge sign pointing it out with a detailed tutorial

 

[killerofstars]

Prior titles in the franchise were all single player and it's far easier to excuse or overlook such issues in single player titles because it's ultimately up to the individual player to set their own pace...there is no competition from other player characters, and no one to be beholden to. This is not the case for a persistent, shared, multiplayer setting...balance matters, because what other players are doing matters.

...Why? How in any way does anyone else in the game earning starships affect you? Especially when participation in the shared PVP murder space that is open is entirely optional?

 

[Bantha]

Sorry not your posts in particular, should've made it more clear. I'm just puzzled why people who have passed this section of the game, insist everyone that follows them does so at the same pace. It doesn't seem to be coming from a place of normal complaint, IE "This change has messed my experience up" but rather "I liked it this way, so probably everyone else would as well."

No problem Commander.

Each to their own - some preferred it then, some prefer it now.

We’re all here, we all enjoy it, we’re all passionate about it, and that’s a good thing.

o7

 

[Commander Biscuit]

I disagree, (being one of the more disagreeable types here, I'd have you know ) if only because I've enjoyed the differing viewpoints presented equally!

It was harder to earn credits when I started than now, and I only started 3 years or so ago - it was fine and great as I was learning a lot for the first year or so anyway.

With the 'progress' since I can make as many credits as I have the patience to raise (like raising enough for a 2nd Fleet Carrier for this account over 6 days) which has given me the opportunity to go and spend silly amounts of credits putting together a 'fleet' of the ships I never tried previously, or perhaps only briefly as - being honest - I didn't have the skill to fly them well.

I appreciated the progress in my starting days, but an getting even more fun now because I can go and be 'silly' without being overly concerned about making what would have been costly mistakes.

I'd like to think you're a rare bird of a player. Personally I've just passed 2 billion, and I've been saving for an FC since the announce date. 5 billion in 6 days? Madness. That's the thing with it, I just don't have the tolerance to grind like that anymore. 30-60 minutes a day bounty hunting or mining is all I can manage, and many have obligations or other reasons for managing less than that. Many will never achieve an FC even with the current rate of progression, and that's fine too. But is the current rate too slow because some will never reach their goals? Or is it too fast because others can do it in 6 days? I'd say neither, because it varies from person to person.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I'd like to think you're a rare bird of a player. Personally I've just passed 2 billion, and I've been saving for a FC since the announce date. 5 billion in 6 days? Madness. That's the thing with it, I just don't have the tolerance to grind like that anymore. 30-60 minutes a day bounty hunting or mining is all I can manage, and many have obligations or other reasons for managing less than that. Many will never achieve an FC even with the current rate of progression, and that's fine too. But is the current rate too slow because some will never reach their goals? Or is it too fast because others can do it in 6 days? I'd say neither, because it varies from person to person.

I should have been a little more open - I used my first account with it's FC to raise the funds - it took around 18 hours of trading stolen goods... (I mine only for fun & Tritium, rather than credits)
My apologies for the lack of clarity!

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

...Why? How in any way does anyone else in the game earning starships affect you? Especially when participation in the shared PVP murder space that is open is entirely optional?

Through bgs manipulation. Let's say you're on PC and I'm on ps4.

We will never run into each other.

Just suppose we work bgs in the same system for competing factions. Perhaps you decide to play the game through slow ship progression (which is fine because each ship is great fun in their own way) and I speedrun/grind my way to a g5 fleet of murdervettes and cargo tanks and what not.

Which of us do you presume will dominate the bgs in the system more easily?

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

Through bgs manipulation. Let's say you're on PC and I'm on ps4. Just suppose we work bgs in the same system for competing factions. Perhaps you decide to play the game through slow ship progression (which is fine because each ship is great fun in their own way) and I speedrun/grind my way to a g5 fleet of murdervettes and cargo tanks and what not. Which of us do you presume will dominate the bgs in the system more easily?

Depends on how many INF+++++ missions I can grind while you’re building your murderfleet

But I don’t disagree, I’m just being contrary

Edit: and of course once you’ve got your murderfleet Open BGS is going to get very uncomfortable for me...

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

I really only need 30 inf a day while I build my fleet up because of diminishing returns. This isn't that hard to maintain

 

[Riverside]

...Why? How in any way does anyone else in the game earning starships affect you? Especially when participation in the shared PVP murder space that is open is entirely optional?

If anything the faster (and potentially better informed with tutorials) progression allows newer players to catch up so they aren't disadvantaged in terms of equipment.

That puts knowledge & skill to the fore rather than simply accumulated assets.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

If you like games with slow progression and an economic system that would make Warren Buffett take notice, the game for you is Eve Online. I cannot stress enough how much I do not want ED to become that.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

If you like games with slow progression and an economic system that would make Warren Buffett take notice, the game for you is Eve Online. I cannot stress enough how much I do not want ED to become that.

Neither do I....... I would say the X games have a far better economy. It scales much better and just goes to prove you don't HAVE to have a player driven economy for it to make sense. It can be simulated.

 

[Morbad]

...Why? How in any way does anyone else in the game earning starships affect you? Especially when participation in the shared PVP murder space that is open is entirely optional?

The underlying setting is shared and influenced across all modes. Player agency is heavily dependent on their CMDR's assets and freedom of action. In both a competitive and cooperative sense, what others have matters here. My CMDR cannot offer aid or opposition as effectively if he's struggling to make ends meet or has not yet acquired the tools (rank, reputation, credits, ships, modules, etc) to maximize his impact. His influence, and where he's dumping it, depend significantly on my level of 'progress' through the game's various loops.

Open is just another, more direct, layer of interaction. However, I've also opted into this, which makes what others have even more important.

I really only need 30 inf a day while I build my fleet up because of diminishing returns. This isn't that hard to maintain

Nothing limits a CMDR to only working in one system at a time.

 

[Jukelo]

"Please Frontier make the game even MORE grindy." That's what you're asking for. You're asking to force players to do boring repetitive tasks MORE to earn the ships they want to earn.

Seriously, Jukelo, what do you do for a living that your fantasies just aren't grindy enough?

Those tasks you are refering to are the game's core loops. If we hate them so much that we couldn't bear the thought of doing it for more than a few hours, then that's a much bigger problem than the grind, and you don't fix it by removing the grind.

Although I would be fine with a return to 2015, where an Anaconda would cost you hundreds of hours, I also think there's a lot of wiggle room between that and the current situation. My main issue is the utter lack of ship and module progression currently, as the opportunity cost of buying and spending time outfitting anything other than a very limited subset of ships far outweighs the money you could make by just sticking to your sidewinder and running cookie-cutter missions. For an end-game sceptic like me who sees no value in Thargoid hunting or artificial PvP in high end ships and instead relishes building different characters from the ground up, that's a serious issue.

As for what I do for a living, that's hardly anyone's business, but it doesn't involve crunching numbers, which I instead do in my free time.

I don't disagree - but... (You knew I would)

Whose 'tastes' should the game be changed for?

Why, mine of course.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It's provenance could be simulated or abstracted, but it's value should be reflected in the time and resources spent creating it, and it's absence should have impact and consequence. That ship would still exist in the setting, and it could be stolen right back, or destroyed...as long as everything had to come from somewhere, balance would be easy to maintain, no matter what logical shortcuts were possible.

I think the question is whether that could be done while still keeping an Elite-like feel to the game.

The most economically sensible thing for any pirate to do in Elite (any version) by a vast margin is to sell their ship back to the outfitters, and retire on the proceeds. The first three games didn't even really do more than pretend that piracy was any more than a vague reason for NPCs to shoot at you.

I can think of ways to make a space trading game with that sort of resource-backed economy and still have piracy be a reasonable thing to do ... but the ship and encounter design it requires wouldn't be Elite-like at all.

Sure, as you say, the balance didn't matter so much in the earlier games (especially since, pre-internet, you had to find your own exploits anyway) - but the broad feel of "an Elite sequel" is built on that (mis)balance as well. Drop that, and you're probably at the stage where it's actually better not to make it anything like Elite at all (beyond the very broad "set in space, has trade and weapons" that EVE and NMS and the X-series also fit) ... which, yeah, I'm also looking to see if anyone gives that a go, but Frontier's goal for this one is clearly "Elite, and also multiplayer" rather than "Multiplayer, and also a bit like Elite".

The magnitude of 'earnings' has still increased dramatically, and most of these examples were unintentional bug exploits that were patched out. The greatest offenders in the current game's radical inflation of credit supply are entirely deliberate, and this is a fundamental shift in the game's flavor.

Yes, that's certainly true.

On the other hand, with the widening of the number of ships available and the number of activities you can do with them, the introduction of engineers and tech brokers, and similar, I think the "time to get one of everything" / "time to get one of everything useful" has actually increased a fair bit since the 1.0 days. That seems to be the measure which Frontier are targeting more.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Why, mine of course.

+1 as I could only like it once!

Thanks

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

...Why? How in any way does anyone else in the game earning starships affect you? Especially when participation in the shared PVP murder space that is open is entirely optional?

Space Karen's man.

Somewhere out there is a new'ish player having fun in an Anaconda. It's the worst thing ever for the game!!!