Are we too helpful?
- Thread starter M00ka
- Start date
Keep trying to gatekeep your favorite kinda newbs and helpWell you will never be accused of being too help here in the forums
I like feeling helpful. It gives me a buzz.
I like it when other's help me out. It also gives me a buzz.
But that's just me.
Besides, it's not like there's REAL irl consequences in helping others, you're not going to loose a competitive edge which may cost your job for instance.
Help if you like helping, don't if you don't.
I like it when other's help me out. It also gives me a buzz.
But that's just me.
Besides, it's not like there's REAL irl consequences in helping others, you're not going to loose a competitive edge which may cost your job for instance.
Help if you like helping, don't if you don't.
I cant imagine why someone would not want to help others get over the dreadful dredge of mat grindi g.
Malice maybe?
Malice maybe?
"(and why it is okay to use 3rd party tools)"
But is it OK though?
I wonder how much less help noobs would need if these tools were in game.
And say, FD added another fleshed out training sequence, like they recently did with piloting the ship, but with added EDDBS like functionality and a fetch quest type mission to train how to get mats and products to go with it?
Deleted member 182079
D
While I do agree that many things that 3rd party tools/sites do should be in the game itself, I don't think it's necessary to implement the above (besides the likelihood that that would delay Odyssey by another 6 months
).Are players not trying things out on their own anymore? Do they really need/want a detailed tutorial about every single game mechanic? Wouldn't players want to investigate those weird "signal thingimabobs" in space and see what happens? Or is this expecting too much these days?
I know I sound like a grumpy old man, but I do see the same "spoonfeed me!" and lack of trial-and-error attitude to work things out by themselves at work quite regularly too, particularly with younger colleagues. And when I they ask me how I figured something out, half the time my answer is "googled it" and they're amazed at this possibility.
Personal opinion here - but I don't have a problem with using third party tools. Maybe it was due to my military career, maybe it is due to my age but I have always embraced the act of using every available resource when trying to solve a problem. There is no way FD could provide the same level and depth of information as EDDB, Inara, even ED Wiki, I think it would be too overwhelming for the game. The way it is now, someone can use the various resources available to get just as much information as they need, in effect self-tailoring the information available to their own specific needs and wants. If it was all in the game, it would have to contact every bit of data, no matter how mundane, how miniscule it is, just to be on level pegging to what is out there. Heck, FD can't even keep their manual up to date
I can't comment on the tutorial packs, never used the new ones but I do believe they are significantly better to what was in the game originally. But I still think that there will always been a need for additional tools for the game, sure some are aiming at very niche sub-sets of the player base, but that is in line with how the game is played - everyone plays it differently.
So M00ka has been back on the forums for one week and that was enough to make him ask for more hostility towards new players? 
On topic: I rarely see new players asking questions like "how do I gather materials", it's always "what's the fastest way to...". And that's not surprising, it's inevitable really. "Journey before destination" doesn't apply to the vast majority of MMO players.
Most players also don't want to spend years on Elite. They play it for a bit and then move on.
On topic: I rarely see new players asking questions like "how do I gather materials", it's always "what's the fastest way to...". And that's not surprising, it's inevitable really. "Journey before destination" doesn't apply to the vast majority of MMO players.
Most players also don't want to spend years on Elite. They play it for a bit and then move on.
I definitely get that and understand the point...
BUT
The way I see it:
If you don't even know what you need to know, how are you meant to know about 3rd party things like EDDBS? Or even what EDDBS does? what is an EDDBS?
Noobs will know about earning money to get bigger and better stuff and this will form the types of questions they ask.
Past Elites came with a fab manual, today's Elite doesn't [really] come with one. Without a manual or even something basic that introduces/hints at the material loop, what are noobs meant to do? I know ED does come with a manual but it's hidden. I have read a good number of posts saying, "Wow! I've been playing for years and just discovered ED has a manual!".
The problem with "signal thingimabobs" and messages is that lots are just flavour and don't do anything meaningful e.g. traders and space liners. I think this adds to the confusion.
Deleted member 182079
D
I'm also not a manual reading type if I'm honest and while I do believe you can get the manual from the launcher, I never bothered checking it outI definitely get that and understand the point...
BUT
The way I see it:
If you don't even know what you need to know, how are you meant to know about 3rd party things like EDDBS? Or even what EDDBS does? what is an EDDBS?
Noobs will know about earning money to get bigger and better stuff and this will form the types of questions they ask.
Past Elites came with a fab manual, today's Elite doesn't [really] come with one. Without a manual or even something basic that introduces/hints at the material loop, what are noobs meant to do? I know ED does come with a manual but it's hidden. I have read a good number of posts saying, "Wow! I've been playing for years and just discovered ED has a manual!".
The problem with "signal thingimabobs" and messages is that lots are just flavour and don't do anything meaningful e.g. traders and space liners. I think this adds to the confusion.
(exception: Ikea furniture - because I tend to get things wrong and waste time disassembling my creation of horror again haha).In part I think this is due to my formation days as a gamer - I either played legitimate backup copies (that obviously didn't come with a manual) on my C64, many games being much more obtuse than Elite ever could be, or because I imported console games from Japan that came with Japanese manuals and at times worse, on-screen text so I just had to work it out somehow - no internet or community to find information (though there were those expensive telephone helplines for some games at least).
But in Elite's case, even if there wasn't (or the manual won't cover all intricacies) a quick google of whatever you come across in Elite will point you to a wiki page or forum entry here, on Reddit or Steam. I would have liked a more fleshed out Codex with more information, and was quite disappointed to see how half-hearted it was implemented (another missed opportunity in a sea of them) but at least on PC answers are only a quick alt-tab and browser search away.
But I guess each individual is different - while signal sources were a mystery to me for a long time in the game (longer than I'm willing to admit really!) I understood eventually how they worked, via exploring them myself and also some information that's already out there. I can understand why others may not bother as it's not exactly the most engaging/sensible gameplay ever conceived to be fair.
I'll happily ridicule you in the name of karma, but on this topic we actually agree. I think Space Astronomy guy has done more harm than good with his "make a billion credits in an hour" videos. I refuse to watch his stuff because of it (I don't want to monetize his channel). Thing is, he's probably a nice guy who has good intentions, but he's basically selling a "How to Solve a Rubik's Cube" book, which completely spoils the fun of actually solving the puzzle yourself. So many negative threads in this forum are from new players who go down the get-rich-quick path and end up bored a week later.
On the other side of the argument, if I had to solve those dreadful Guardian puzzles alone, I would be without a FSD booster today. I hate it when I'm forced to engage in game content that I have zero interest in just so I can "level up" in gameplay that I am interested in. This is where I'll take some shortcuts, and I'm very thankful to whoever posted the solutions to the Guardian puzzle. It's one thing to spoil a Rubik's Cube for those who want to play that game, it's another to force me to solve a Rubik's Cube in order to add a turbo charger to my race car so I can drive fast down the track. Heck, just visiting a Guardian site should unlock the FSD, seeing that it's not a trivial distance to travel for a new player (and the FSD is a travel buff).
I like to try out stuff. In other games. In ED I've learned that it is an exercise in futility. Chances are that it doesn't work, it doesn't work any more, it is marginally better or worse simply don't justify the amount of time I have to sink in to "try out". It simply doesn't justify the time investment.While I do agree that many things that 3rd party tools/sites do should be in the game itself, I don't think it's necessary to implement the above (besides the likelihood that that would delay Odyssey by another 6 months
Are players not trying things out on their own anymore? Do they really need/want a detailed tutorial about every single game mechanic? Wouldn't players want to investigate those weird "signal thingimabobs" in space and see what happens? Or is this expecting too much these days?
I know I sound like a grumpy old man, but I do see the same "spoonfeed me!" and lack of trial-and-error attitude to work things out by themselves at work quite regularly too, particularly with younger colleagues. And when I they ask me how I figured something out, half the time my answer is "googled it" and they're amazed at this possibility.
For example I can try out different builds in CP2077. I try some hybrid melee, shotgun dude instead. Pretty soon I discover I can ragdoll enemies. Didn't take much time - I get my lols.
In ED I don't get lols - I get "time wasted for nothing" outcomes.
Deleted member 182079
D
It depends - in Elite where I draw the line are the more complex puzzles that your average player simply can't, or won't, solve on their own (so anything Thargoid and Guardian related). I basically just followed the herd by being a tourist, which took a big chunk in terms of satisfaction out of the equation being able to solve something yourself. But I've made peace with this knowing that there's a part of the community who want this kind of content, so I let them have it.
If you take engineers for example - I'm now based in Colonia, and engineering there is just so convenient I'm much more experimenting with different recipes and special effects, because it only takes 1-2 jumps to get to them, and it's 4 of them covering all the recipes amongst them. I wish it was similar in the Bubble, because the engineers there being so cluttered means a lot of time spent travelling if you don't have a FC at your disposal.
(FWIW the futility of discussing engineering with you out of all people isn't lost on me by the way!)
We (collectively) on the forum probably veer more toward providing useful help over the more facetious responses, even when reading the same question that has been asked many times over.
I really don't mind going in-game to 'lend a hand' to anyone who has a problem, or just needs a little support - or even, just someone to join in and be 'company' for a while.
How much help to offer is interesting, one of my RL friends is joining in soon (RL has thrown a delay) and I have already 'planned ahead' how to make the very early stages of playing (the bit where everything is uphill both ways) offer places of interest to visit and gain the skills most of us learn by just doing missions early on, of course I have to hope that the things I find fascinating will have the same charm for him...
As mentioned already, there are even 'new' but old players coming back to play, we who have been continuously playing over the last few years already have familiarity with the changes in the game, possibly forgetting (bar the ADS) how different it was before!
I really don't mind going in-game to 'lend a hand' to anyone who has a problem, or just needs a little support - or even, just someone to join in and be 'company' for a while.
How much help to offer is interesting, one of my RL friends is joining in soon (RL has thrown a delay) and I have already 'planned ahead' how to make the very early stages of playing (the bit where everything is uphill both ways) offer places of interest to visit and gain the skills most of us learn by just doing missions early on, of course I have to hope that the things I find fascinating will have the same charm for him...
As mentioned already, there are even 'new' but old players coming back to play, we who have been continuously playing over the last few years already have familiarity with the changes in the game, possibly forgetting (bar the ADS) how different it was before!
Deleted member 182079
D
Elite has come up on another forum that I 'live' on, but since it's a more generic one the posters are a lot more casual - so I'm holding back and trying to avoid overburdening noobs there with tons of information, and instead let them have a taste of the game first to see if they like it - if early on they complain about the game not being fun then I consider any walls of texts (helpful or not) a waste of effort (because if they don't like the basics, they will not stay for the long run) - especially as someone who tends to leave those walls there and here also out of eagerness to help, I try to remind myself that less is more more often than it is not, and that also applies to providing assistance and advice. Let them learn to walk first before you teach them how to ride a bike, etc.
Don't forget, I'm child of 2.1. There were no scanning for site. No probabilities. No "hotspots". You flew around blindly and hoped something would drop randomly. It was crap by design, but apparently good enough to be rolled out.
We can take the BGS instead. If it hadn't been for the group I played with I'd never have found out how to do it by myself.
I think the OP makes a good point actually. I'm of the "teach a man how to fish" school of thought although I'll freely admit I often give more specific advice than perhaps I should.
Must admit the two best times I'v had working with others.........which I normally try to avoid, are..........
1. Trying to get Jaques Station up & running shortly after it was found.....a good 6 months until the dreaded Colonia Expansion ball locks.
2. The original Ram Tah stuff, when we where still out there finding Guardian sites & trying to unlock the obelisk data.
