Will FdL ever get nerfed/brought in line with other ship?
- Thread starter Phoenix13
- Start date
Shield boosters should go. Combat was better without health spells.I'd be okay with a shield nerf of some kind to make hulltanks worth it. I'd also be happy for FDL to be nerfed, alternatively. I see the usual forum myth-mongering, in this case about nerf-creep "oh no what else will these crazies nerf if they get their way?" - nope it's just about breaking some of the head and shoulders primacy of the FDL. And another invention - "it will just be replaced with new meta" - no, unless you overnerf it. Keep it the meta by all means, just "less meta" to give other options a look-in for anyone but the best pilots.
This was my initial thought but 2 things. All the other ships that are meant to be decent at combat or better are all really close to each other. The fdl is above everything else by a notable amount. Nerfing the 1 ship is much easier. Also we don't want to see every ship with a 80-90deg/sec pitch rate.
Never got much of a problem defending myself vs. FdLs in my Python or Krait Mk2... other ships can carry a lot more total shield strength than the FdL in SCBs... just have to make sure, not to get hit by feedback cascade rails too much.
And if things go south just low-wake out, as the FdL cannot mass-inhibit them
The FdL is a strong PvP-ship, but it's not dangerous at all, if dealt with accordingly.
And if things go south just low-wake out, as the FdL cannot mass-inhibit them
The FdL is a strong PvP-ship, but it's not dangerous at all, if dealt with accordingly.
Some thoughts:
I very much hope that Fdev consults bona fide and experienced PvPers if they attempt to balance PvP. I have very little confidence that there are many at Fdev who really have taken its glorious flight model to its limit, i.e. expert flying in fa off, successfully using fixed weaponry, combat in dense asteroid fields and not slamming into rocks. It takes hundreds of hours to fly well, most Fdev probably do not have the time.
In addition, due to being deemed "undiplomatic," many knowlegeable PvPers have been banned from these forums. How can one effect a successful balancing if one stifles the voices of precisely those that can actually give real highly tested feedback?
Just because the messenger is "unmutual" does not mean the message is less correct or pertinent.
In the end, and since PvP is marginalized due to the fact we are a small subset of the total player population so that accordingly, Fdev does not devote as many assets, PvPers were forced to balance themselves.
Every PvP League type tournament has a very large list of restrictions in order to guarantee the most fair playing field. Any tournament involving FDLs will have a shield booster limit, restrictions on OP experimentals like Thermal Conduit or "cheesy" tactics like silent running or reboot/repair. (Thermal Conduit and Silent Running became viable because Fdev fixed the Heat Bug by making ships more resistant to heat. Prior to that "fix", keeping your ship at above 100 degrees was not a thing. ) There are rules checks so that Commanders do not use premium ammo, etc. The list goes on....
PvPers themselves have gotten bored with the FDL and are now having Hulltank Tournaments outlawing FDLs and Mambi. But guess what, metas are beginning to arise in that, too. And yes, flying FA off, Plasma Accelerators and Rails are still king.
tl;dr: If you want balance, do it yourself and try organized PvP.
o7
I very much hope that Fdev consults bona fide and experienced PvPers if they attempt to balance PvP. I have very little confidence that there are many at Fdev who really have taken its glorious flight model to its limit, i.e. expert flying in fa off, successfully using fixed weaponry, combat in dense asteroid fields and not slamming into rocks. It takes hundreds of hours to fly well, most Fdev probably do not have the time.
In addition, due to being deemed "undiplomatic," many knowlegeable PvPers have been banned from these forums. How can one effect a successful balancing if one stifles the voices of precisely those that can actually give real highly tested feedback?
Just because the messenger is "unmutual" does not mean the message is less correct or pertinent.
In the end, and since PvP is marginalized due to the fact we are a small subset of the total player population so that accordingly, Fdev does not devote as many assets, PvPers were forced to balance themselves.
Every PvP League type tournament has a very large list of restrictions in order to guarantee the most fair playing field. Any tournament involving FDLs will have a shield booster limit, restrictions on OP experimentals like Thermal Conduit or "cheesy" tactics like silent running or reboot/repair. (Thermal Conduit and Silent Running became viable because Fdev fixed the Heat Bug by making ships more resistant to heat. Prior to that "fix", keeping your ship at above 100 degrees was not a thing. ) There are rules checks so that Commanders do not use premium ammo, etc. The list goes on....
PvPers themselves have gotten bored with the FDL and are now having Hulltank Tournaments outlawing FDLs and Mambi. But guess what, metas are beginning to arise in that, too. And yes, flying FA off, Plasma Accelerators and Rails are still king.
tl;dr: If you want balance, do it yourself and try organized PvP.
o7
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Universal Nerf for the shield pool.
Set a common shield pool baseline for maximum engineered shield like let's say 1000 points.
At the same time, make no ship exceed that shield baseline by +/- 30%.
For example that would mean 700 maximum shield for a Sidewinder and 1300 for a Corvette / FDL.
That would balance all ships while keeping the meta, but in a much closer, reachable range.
Set a common shield pool baseline for maximum engineered shield like let's say 1000 points.
At the same time, make no ship exceed that shield baseline by +/- 30%.
For example that would mean 700 maximum shield for a Sidewinder and 1300 for a Corvette / FDL.
That would balance all ships while keeping the meta, but in a much closer, reachable range.
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So, a Corvette's shields would only be twice the strength of a Sidewinder? Just to clarify, a dedicated warship that can cost up to a billion credits, only twice as powerful shields as a ship that costs about 1% of that? Not to mention that the Corvette is vastly less manoeuvrable.
No offence, but I sincerely hope your idea is not accepted. Bigger warships SHOULD have massively stronger shields, as they are not nearly as fast as smaller ships, either. They'd become merely big targets.
building ships that are not a 'META' but fun to fly...
... I have some empathy with the PvP community, but have to confess the loathing I feel when the calls to 'nerf' something that bothers them, which would have repercussions for every player, are uttered with such regularity.
As mentioned, the PvP 'community' organise fights for their entertainment, and create their own rules for such, so why the call to impose their preference on the whole playerbase?
FYI, it's not the PvP community who come up with stupid "nerf the FDL" suggestions.
That's good...FYI, it's not the PvP community who come up with stupid "nerf the FDL" suggestions.
My error, happy to admit it!
So the stupid suggestion to nerf the fdl wasn't a member of the PvP Communoty - that is great!
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The FdL is my favourite ship, I would not be happy to see it loose any current statistics via nerfing.
I named mine the Groove Hammer for a reason....
o7
I named mine the Groove Hammer for a reason....
o7
Could you please be more specific as to which nerfs? Also there are so very few here on these forums whom I recognize as respected leaders in the PvP community. Who are the most respected? Those with the most skill. The top tier participate in these forums rarely, if ever.
The last time there was a concerted presence of the PvP community was when Fdev attempted to change the stats of the drag experimental, iirc.
I participate in these forums because now and then, someone new to the game is interested in PvP. I try to help them by giving them a PvP interpretation... A little whiff of the actual range of possibility in this game's flight model. How to get better in FA off and using PAs, etc. I am certainly not top tier, I just wish to help increase the PvP player base. Most importantly, to help people not give up.
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Is difficult when doing so means overtly handicapping one's self against peer-level opposition.
A properly balanced game would have a wide variety of viable options through the entire stack of combat scenarios and skill levels. And this would be reflected in people's choice of ship for various tasks.
Organized PvP is only on narrow slice of the PvP spectrum. It's also not PvPer's preferences that are a concern here, it's what can be observed about what ships are used and how they are used. Indeed, preferences are the very last thing that should be considered, if the goal is balance, because preferences are subjective (and most people want their favorite toy to be the best toy, irrespective of balance), while usage patterns are objective and empirical.
Balancing for the lowest common denominator is the same as not balancing at all. Everything is viable against (human) NPCs because NPCs are deliberately designed to be fodder for CMDRs of all skill levels. There is no way to separate the wheat from the chaff in such scenarios.
I strongly suspect that most players would barely even notice an FDL nerf. It's not the go to PvE combat ship and knocking it back to near 1.4 stats (reducing it's rotational performance 10-15% and reducing it's PP class to 5) wouldn't even make it much worse at any PvE content (it would still out turn the Kraits or Python by a significant margin and would only need minor loadout adjustments for most CMDRs currently using them), but it would still go a long way to balancing combat ships at the high-end. That faster pitch rate, combined with it's boost multiplier, allows it to orbit better than anything with comparable or better firepower, skewing relative time on target vs. most other vessels that should be competitive, in favor of the FDL. And the class six power plant allows even the most outlandishly power hungry loadouts (reinforced high-cap prismatics, five skill boosters, dual SCBs and five PAs, for example) to be fielded with minimal trade offs. A modest reduction in performance of the FDL would make half a dozen other combat vessels look a lot more viable.
Those half dozen other ships are either low skill ceiling crap or less fun to fly.
Or both.
No I agree, I think we should nerf the Type 9 heavy, it carries way to much cargo, I reckon 128t should bring it in line with other ships!
Bingo.
Can't even count how much stuff was ruined in Eve Online to satisfy the complaints of the small PVP minority. Let's not make the same mistakes here. The FDL is working as intended.
Gladly... Although I won't spend my time looking up the specific posts, but you may rest assured they certainly do.
Shall we start with the obvious one? Remove the benefits of stacked SRP / Utility mounts? Only mentioned here...
Along with the removal of Premium Ammo (That was Aashenfox a while ago also championing it, along with others)
You jumped on the most obvious one - the drag experimental (which was screamed down even before it made it into the game, that was hilarious!)
Another recent request was for the removal of the Corrosive experimental...
Read around a bit, there may be a few that don't spring immediately to mind... All with the usual throwaway that only PvP players actually play and that the PvE community wouldn't ever notice anyway (or if it affected them it doesn't matter because..)
I'd argue that it takes a lot more skill for a wing of FASes, Chieftains, or Challengers to stand up to a wing of FDLs. Other ships might have a lower skill floor for effective use, but I'm not convinced there is any skill ceiling. The FDL might reward somewhat different skills, and reward them proportionally more, but that's because it's a better ship, with generally more advantages and fewer weaknesses. More competent users can extract more from superior tools.
How fun something is is pretty subjective. Personally, I enjoyed the FDL more when it felt like one of several options, not a given that required arbitrary limitations to bring back inline with other ships.
Assuming there are no loadout restrictions, do you think it's an accurate assessment that the FDL is increasingly over represented as the challenge level of combat increases?
Would a modest reduction in the capabilities of the FDL even make it less fun for you to fly, or change your assessment of it's skill ceiling?
I'm pretty confident the FDL was never intended to be the only high-end fighter.
We had the opportunity to test that one and the enhanced drag effect that prevented boosting made the weapon effectively mandatory, even after the introduction of a cooldown. It was another case of gross over-representation stemming from a lack of meaningful alternative options.
This generally isn't proposed by PvPers because PvP is dominated by shields, which renders counters to hull a lower concern. The last major thread I recalled on that topic was calling for a nerf primarily on the grounds of bullet sponge NPCs.
That said, if shields are ever balanced, corrosive will become virtually mandatory in many PvP scenarios too.
Read around a bit, there may be a few that don't spring immediately to mind... All with the usual throwaway that only PvP players actually play and that the PvE community wouldn't ever notice anyway (or if it affected them it doesn't matter because..)
It's not that exclusive PvEers don't play, it's that NPCs don't. While rare, we have seen upgrades to NPC loadouts and behaviors before. What happens if NPCs are finally unshackled and start using the best loadouts available to the task at hand, backed by the ability to fly the way CMDRs do? Personally, if I'm balancing tools, I'm not going to do so by arbitrarily limiting how they're used, nor will I assume they'll always be used poorly. I wish they'd allow NPCs to use FA Off when beneficial, more aggressive piloting tactics, and the same sort of loadouts one would see on CMDRs...then some of these imbalances would become readily apparent for everyone.
And what rational PvE FDL loadout requires a class 6 PP?
Why does a game asset have a requirement to be rational rather than enjoyable?
With the greatest of respect to your own particular perception of how to play this game, I play for recreation, fun, enjoyment - and the majority of the time that recreation doesn't require any other player to be present (despite the MMO part of the game description) for me to be having a 'good time'.
I build irrational ships according to the 'real' players as they can actually be at risk to concerted attack from NPC's or Spec Ops in a CZ - just because I wish to enjoy playing the game 'my way', naturally from 'serious' players the idea that someone can enjoy self-imposed 'risk' is akin to Heresy as to them it makes no sense.
I appreciate that you play 'your way' and that other also play 'their way', and that utilising the assets we have is entirely subjective - so what you see as irrational I perceive as an opportunity to do something different with, we all are correct in our view, of course.