Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[ECity]

You are not a teacher, we are not your students and we are not talking about the origins of life but a computer game.

It's literally the same thing. "Both sidesing" a scammer benefits the scammer.

 

[ECity]

People here just want to be the victim and complain for as long as possible.

Because I'm not a mark, I've given no money to CIG.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Someone just personally offered to reimburse people here hours ago. And he was rejected.

This is not about the money to people here, it's about holding a grudge. I truly believe you are doing what you feel is right, and in general you actually are doing the right thing with this. But this forum ain't the place man. People here just want to be the victim and complain for as long as possible.

First we have to assume that offer was genuine. That someone was really willing to give someone hundreds of dollars to go away and be quiet.

Secondly, you're right that its not about the money, but its not only about a grudge. I have no grudge, i never gave CIG a penny. I'm no "victim".

If you are the sort of person who would walk past someone selling snake oil, wouldn't try and warn people who are buying it, thinking "haha, idiots" then ok. Sometimes though, you stop and say "hey, guys, what this guy is selling is rubbish". Some of those people will tell you that you don't understand snake oil development. But some might listen.

One thing is clear for me, that what CR is selling is not what he can/will deliver on. He's trying, for sure, but he's not capable of it. CIG still haven't delivered on anything on a par with the game they advertised to backers as taking 2-3 years and 5.5 million. They still haven't delivered on the game they said might take a few years longer and cost 65 million.

At what point do people stop believing CR can deliver on what they have promised despite having almost 10 years and in the region of 500 million?

It seems like the answer maybe never. They will continue to believe no matter what.

I personally don't believe it is possible for CIG to deliver on what they have sold even if given another 20 years and a billion dollars more.

I do think, if CR was to step down, if someone with better project management skills took over, who is more realistic, then within a few years they could release a decent game. There is a foundation there. Some challenges to overcome on the technical side of course. Cut back on some of the sillier ideas (like air flowing through pipes on ships), abstract away some of the unecessary stuff, stop worrying about NPC fashion on individual moons, and it could be made into a releasable product that might garner some positive reviews.

It still wouldn't be the game backers were sold, but it would be a released and playable game.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

it’s like the gift that keeps on giving.

This as well. So many laughs we've had over the years watching this show.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

SC has grown way beyond WC.

Technically speaking, that shouldn't be hard. There are single developers out there who have produced games beyond what WC and probably in less time and with less money. Technology has moved on, there are now free game engines you can use to whip up games relatively quickly and cheaply.

It doesn't require 500 million and 9 years to make something more than WC.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Fanatics like Agony Aunt even literally said so.

Picture of me in Ian's head.

You are kind of missing the point though with

Oh noes! Lets be honest: the hardcore gang here loves being the victim. They dont want compensation, an actual succesful release or anything.

As i said, i'm not playing the victim because i'm not a victim. Never gave CIG any money. I have nothing to be compensated for. If anything, SC has given me lots in return for nothing. Lots of laughs. As for a sucessful release, i don't think CIG/CR deserve one, but i think those backers who acted in good faith and unfortunately trusted CR deserve one.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Phew... what a lot of posts.

Getting up there with MBTFritz!

 

[Asp Explorer]

Phew... what a lot of posts.

Getting up there with MBTFritz!

Naah - Fritz is like Lemmy.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Someone on the refunds sub just brought up this effortpost for 2017.

Its a fun read.

It's time for another effortpost! Loxbourne's Fireside Chats? Regardless, I've talked about the "Tenets of the Faithful" and I think we've gathered enough data by now to actually map those tenets out. I'm not suggesting a backer actually prays to these like genuine catechisms, but these are the fundamental beliefs of a heavily invested backer who we'd consider a "cultist". They're the scaffolding holding up the Dreams, and the Citizens' self-identities along with them. If you contradict one, by accident or design, the Citizen WILL respond and you will have an internet fight on your hands.

So then, The Tenets of the Cult of Christ Roberts and the Church of Latter-Day Star Citizens. The words carved on the golden pages of the Great Book of Dreams, whispered by everyone from Ben Lesnick on down:

Star Citizen is the BEST GAME EVER

Self-explanatory but also the tenet that needs the most proselytising and defending. Star Citizen is THE BEST and so it automatically gets associated in their minds with all the other BEST THINGS EVER (the theorycrafting, the dreams of massive battles, the org politics which every citizen expects to win, and so forth). A whole pile of weird citizen behaviour stems from the need to keep Star Citizen's reputation pristine - and in reality, to keep it on the pedestal in their minds. Star Citizen Good, in all things forevermore. Amen.

Enter the conspiracy theories about Big Publishing Sabotage, the furious projection of SC's problems onto other games, and so on. P2W? Delays? Boring missions? Even being in alpha for an alarmingly long time. You can tell exactly what the backers are worried about in Star Citizen at any given moment by reading what they're accusing Elite Dangerous and Line of Defence of doing.

Star Citizen backers are an elite who have recognised an Important Project and invested in it.

Important for tribalism and also for a sense of self-importance. Citizens are big important people. They're saving PC gaming, you know. That's why we see weird misuse of financial terminology (pledges are an "investment") that can even be contradicted in the same post ("CIG owes you NOTHING"). Needless to say, the "invester" stuff gets cited when a Citizen wants to feel powerful and the Might of CIG (ironclad TOS, "refunds are scams", etc) gets invoked when a Citizen feels another citizen is getting uppity.

Chris Roberts is a genius who surrounds himself with other geniuses. He and his circle must not be judged by the standards of ordinary mortals.

The cult of personality. You gotta have faith in the man himself. Cultists can see Star Citizen is a vastly ambitious game that would normally be impossible to make, they just tell themselves Chris can make it because he's a genius. A hero from their childhood. Losing faith in Chris's ability to make the game, or his benevolent attitude towards his followers, is repeatedly described on the refunds subreddit as the moment people decided to pull out.

This is the tenet that supports and partially fuels the LARP-like behaviour from CIG (of course Chris's ego supplies the rest). Chris and CIG's uncontested genius is essential to silencing any doubts that might form. CIG has the best people working round the clock on Star Citizen! Networking guy is a "networking God", Sandi is "the best marketer ever", and so forth. Any of their employees must be the Best Guys Ever At X. And it's entirely acceptable to spend huge sums of money to buy top talent, who are instantly promoted to being top talent just because they work at CIG.

A CIG staffer who doesn't act like Top Talent rankles with the faithful. This is why you'll sometimes see cultists furiously decry a leaver or even an indiscreet current employee as only a minor flunky. He's not acting right to fit the vision in their heads of CIG's Mighty Beings. Chris's and even Sandi's behaviour is acceptable to the cult because that's just how their idea of a rockstar game coder acts. It's what they'd do if they were him.

I will get to fly my spaceship and it will be glorious and awesome and just like my dreams.

"DON'T TOUCH THE SPACESHIPS". Self-explanatory and also ineeringly precise. The cultist's specific dreams are the ones that Star Citizen will conform with. How long do you think B'Tak would last even in the game most of his fellow backers want to play? A citizen knows their ships will be amazing and totally worth the "investment" and let them live out whatever space dreams they've brought to the table from their own lives, without interruption from awkward deaths or risk of running out of content. A Cultist will never be bad at his chosen profession especially if that profession is "space badass". That's what the faithless masses are for.

As pointed out already, CIG messes with this at their extreme peril. The Grey Market can be accepted under this tenet because "a ship is worth the investment", but if CIG suggest a ship might not be as good as the citizens thought? FIRE AND WOE.

The masses will admire the ships I pledged to back. They will wish they had one and weep tears of longing.

The Citizens must have better ships than everyone else. They paid, dammit (in money, time, and faith), they suffered the jeers and mockeries of the knowlessmen. The Cult's promised heaven is a place where a Citizen can gun down latecomers and have them gasp in awe at his amaaaazing ships that he was granted as just recompense for his faith in the project. It's his rightful reward.

Of course as discussed earlier, this demands the presence of huge numbers of second-class citizens who have to do the gasping and the weeping, condemned never to be as awesome as a proper Citizen. While they're at it, they need to walk around the space stations, make ineffectual pirate attacks, and never ever run in the corridors y'hear?

My dreams are important to CIG.

The theorycraft fuel. CIG is the best company and Star Citizen is the best game and it's going to be every good thing I ever dreamed of. The means by which CIG will design, implement, or even know of the Citizen's dreams are just a sacred mystery of the Cult.

Backers will hiss and snarl at CIG if this tenet is threatened, even though this seems contradictory to other tenets. If this comes under pressure, from CIG nailing down a mechanic or an ill-judged remark on a livestream, the cult get very angry and this morphs into a more threatening form: My dreams are shared by a silent majority who agree with me. CIG would be stupid to go against me and the secret army of backers who agree with me.

This creates one of the sadder cult beliefs - that CIG read the forums and monitor it for good ideas, so their theorycrafting will be recognised and put into the game. If one of the CIG leads said he never read Spectrum, there'd be an explosion within hours.

CIG will reward me for the faith I have shown. I rise in CIG's esteem by performing acts of faith.

This, this this this, is where a fundamental disconnect exists between CIG and its cult, and if the cult ever do rise up it will probably be because of a fracture that starts here. I could have phrased this as "CIG will reward me for buying more ships", but that's not actually how the fandom tell themselves the system works. Citizens believe they will catch CIG's eye and be rewarded for preaching, bringing in new backers (okay that worked for a while), posting praise on the subreddits, shouting down unbelievers, and owning goons/refunders/Derek with sick burns.

Except...you don't rise in the fandom by showing faith. Maybe you did once - citizens can remember the days of beer shipments and gift crates and shoutouts on Around The Verse. But that doesn't work anymore. CIG just expect you to turn up to be milked and get very indignant when you don't. You gain CIG's attention by Buying More Ships. CIG are veeeeery careful to cloak Buying More Ships as having faith in Star Citizen. They call it pledging, they constantly thank backers for their support, they dole out rewards like PTU access. Backers see streamers who stream because they're paid by CIG marketing, but they're told that the streamers do it out of sheer love of the game. But the fundamental thing that gets a cultist that sweet, sweet attention from the Divine is to buy the current ship on sale. New cash only please, no melting.

CIG can only push this so far. Backers are possessive and resent any suggestion that others might be rewarded if they haven't shown sufficient faith (and every backer is sure they've shown more faith then their neighbours). The anger around the Evocati centres on the way CIG created an inner circle whose members weren't considered worthy amongst the wider community. Worse, Evocati members describe a broken game even if they do so in effusive tones. They should be singing hymns of divine ecstacy.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Okay, lets do this same old tired dance again.

Is that the forum police dance? If so, I pass. I've already seen you do it.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

People here just want to be the victim and complain for as long as possible.

I dunno, I’m here for pix of Mole’s cows and occasional recipes.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I dunno, I’m here for pix of Mole’s cows and occasional recipes.

I'm not Mole - but try this! Dee Soup!

5 medium sized Potatoes - peeled the night before you want to make the soup. Leave them submerged in a pot of water. Take the peels and leave them in another pot of water. Add 1/2 cup barley grains to the peel pot. Leave them covered overnight too.

Next day - Mix 3 American sized chicken stock cubes, or one proper sized one, or even better real chicken stock to two cups water. Pour into a medium sized pot with lid and heat until boiling, and then immediately turn down to a low simmer.

Strain the barley through a coarse sieve, leaving just the potato peels behind - and add to the pot. Put the peels in recycling.

Dump the potatoes in. Grate or chop a carrot and add to the pot. Stir occasionally until most of the potatoes have softened and reduced in volume, and the barley has fully opened and split.

Dispense into bowls, add salt and parsley to taste. Enjoy yum!

Buy an Idris while you wait for it to cool down a little.

 

[Firkrayt]

In retrospect, maybe we had to refrain from joking about leaving the can of worms alone, because last five pages look like someone had opened it.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I can highly recommend Borscht. After coming to Russia it became my favourite soup.

 

[Bootcha]

I made a taco... dip?

Tonight I felt like using my corn chip big scoops, but I didn't feel like chili as the main attraction. So I was thinking something in between Shepard's pie and taco pie. It wasn't bad.

 

[metatheurgist]

I dunno, I’m here for pix of Mole’s cows and occasional recipes.

And the spectacular pictures of the island he quarantines his demonic cows on!

 

[Bootcha]

But you know what? It would be nice if we could, just for a change, stop ganging up on people who just happen to gasp enjoy a computer game just because we perceive that to be a threat to our Gospel of the Evil Roberts. Because as stupid as this entire charade is, becoming the mirror image of Joe Blobbers isn't much of an achievement anyone here should be proud of. Oh no! Someone had fun for thirty minutes! Quick, to the barricades!

I actually enjoy Mole's trip reports about his experiences in the game. And at times he gets a glimpse through that keyhole of what could be, and enjoys the game. And I will not criticize someone's actual personal gameplay experience and reaction, be it positive or negative.

I would say one of the issues folks here, as well as myself, have is substituting extremely brief and curated moments from other players for their own "experience", as a measure of the entirety of the game. It has a taste of dis-ingeniousness, and smells of marketing more than genuine player experience. Especially when many of us here have played the game for ourselves recently and have constant experiences that are way way way on the other side of the intended message and narrative being presented.

I personally had two "moments" with the Star Citizen project. One was early after Arena Commander released, when I was shooting up a Scythe. I shot its wing off and the wing flew over my head/cockpit as I pursued it. That was freaking awesome. And that was 6 years ago. My second was the first time I landed on a planet, got out of the spaceship, and just looked around. It was just a nice quiet moment. And that was 3 years ago.

So when I'm told by both Roberts and the shills that my experiences of not just the ARG surrounding the project are wrong, but the software product itself, I'm more than a bit skeptical of the intent of the message and narrative.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Someone just personally offered to reimburse people here hours ago. And he was rejected.

This is not about the money to people here, it's about holding a grudge. I truly believe you are doing what you feel is right, and in general you actually are doing the right thing with this. But this forum ain't the place man. People here just want to be the victim and complain for as long as possible.

What grudge I bear is that whole SC drama puts bad name for crowdfunded projects in general. And can seriously hinder some worthy projects.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

Okay, lets do this same old tired dance again.



Nobody said that.



Nobody said that.



Nobody said that.



No clue what this is even supposed to mean. Thanks for playing though!



Look mate, I know what happened the past, well, almost a decade by now. SC is poopy pants, CR is incompetent. I get it, we all do. Nobody here is absolving anyone of anything. This topic is the closest to a literal embodiment of 'preaching to the choir' the internet has ever known. Thing is that people here aren't looking for a fix. Or closure. Or refunds. Or anything other than an endless circle jerk uninterupted by the horror of people casually remarking that they kinda had fun with some dumb computer game. Oh noes! Lets be honest: the hardcore gang here loves being the victim. They dont want compensation, an actual succesful release or anything. Fanatics like Agony Aunt even literally said so.

Yes, SC is garbage. No, it will never live up to what they promised. Yes, they should offer refunds. But you know what? It would be nice if we could, just for a change, stop ganging up on people who just happen to gasp enjoy a computer game just because we perceive that to be a threat to our Gospel of the Evil Roberts. Because as stupid as this entire charade is, becoming the mirror image of Joe Blobbers isn't much of an achievement anyone here should be proud of. Oh no! Someone had fun for thirty minutes! Quick, to the barricades!

And now the usual suspects can all spam a few more pages again about how much of a heretic I am by 'Defending the Robert'.

CONFORM CONSUME OBEY
Got ya

 

[Xink]

You guys should stop being mean to Mr Roberts. It's not like he's taking pictures of himself on the back of a yacht somewhere in Monaco.. what's that? Oh.

Well, it's not like he bought a 4.5M USD mansion on the palisade hills in LA.. what's that? Oh..

Weeeell, it's not like he shows up to work in a brand new Porsche or something.. wait what? Really? Oh ok..

Well! It's not like he employs his wife and brother on typical C-level executive salaries and bonuses, has a plethora of shell companies that all buy and sell from each other, does not disclose financials despite saying he would or sells parts of the company he crowdfunded funds to create for profit to himself to external investors.. wait what? Oh come on! I give up.