Proposal Discussion Anti Botting Agreement Idea 3.1 Player incentivised, VR compatible in-station "not-a-literal-Captcha"

[Rat Catcher]

I see us at an impasse, all I can say is that I resonate with an opinion that entire powerplay factions (example Federation) advocate on their discords. As to bot evidence, I have no proof myself because I never get the opportunity to see them in open play. I'm sure you will permit me that chicanery.

Indeed we are at an impasse, by virtue of the description of the same game everyone who plays bought (or were given free by Epic) in one form or another - as we have the choice of how we play at any given time, along with the promise that we shall all influence the game equally.

Holding diametrically opposite opinions of what this game constitutes is really of no import, until Frontier decide to change the direction of the game in favour or any particular style (unlikely - but not impossible) we shall remain at odds amicably, and the 'dream' of all players being together as a single community, sharing all activity in the game together shall remain just that.

 

[Rainbro]

modes have no impact on botting or not ..it's just easier to hide in non-open mode. But if anything forced them to be in open to do the same job, they'd just setup a firewall system that blocks connections to other players.

It wouldn't be an entire solution but it'd help, even when bots aren't involved. If nothing else, I don't see why people playing in singleplayer mode should be able to impact more than themselves.

 

[Rat Catcher]

It wouldn't be an entire solution but it'd help, even when bots aren't involved. If nothing else, I don't see why people playing in singleplayer mode should be able to impact more than themselves.

Hmm...
So what about the 2 multiplayer modes?

 

[Alien]

botting is real, botting has been going on for a while now. How much it matters depends on how much you play for the BGS.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but go back through this thread and count up how many times I've asked for proof bots are being used.
I'm still waiting.

 

[Darth Ender]

It wouldn't be an entire solution but it'd help, even when bots aren't involved. If nothing else, I don't see why people playing in singleplayer mode should be able to impact more than themselves.

no it wouldn't help. It would just give you a false sense of security in a system that simply doesn't do what it would imply and you're back to the same problem only now you've added a bunch of useless work the developers have to do and changed the game for no good reason.

Open only can't work without simulation arbitration servers and common instance servers and undoing how the "ignore list" works.

Just give up the hope in that idea. it wont ever happen. Ever. Fdev absolutely will not do it.

 

[Darth Ender]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but go back through this thread and count up how many times I've asked for proof bots are being used.
I'm still waiting.

Go on google, find the easy to find cheat forums. You can then find the bot downloads and instructions on how to set them up and work them and run your own. If running your own isn't proof enough for you, then you're not interested in reality or facts.

edit: you're not going to get any better proof ... fdev has no incentive to provide any and plenty of incentive to not. you can't "name and shame" or post cheats etc here without getting banned so nobody is going to post anything here.

But you could go on a site like youtube. Type in a search such as "elite dangerous bot example" and magically all of these examples will be there for your evidential review. That takes a whole 30 seconds of effort.

 

[Alien]

Go on google, find the easy to find cheat forums. You can then find the bot downloads and instructions on how to set them up and work them and run your own. If running your own isn't proof enough for you, then you're not interested in reality or facts.

I know it is, I just did a Google search for Elite Dangerous bots .... didn't find any, but in the results of all the useful LEGAL 3rd-party tools, I did find one trainer for Elite Dangerous (no, I won't share the link, and no I don't use them) ... but no bots.



So, again,for the umpteenth time, I ask .... and will keep banging this drum .... where is the proof bots either are being used or are a problem?

That was on Saturday 6th February 2021 at 5:54pm UK time.

So please don't parrot responses at me that others are also repeating like you're one of the sheep.
If you have seen proof, please PM it to me. I honestly would like to see it.
I won't just accept bots are a problem just because someone else says so, I would like to see the evidence for myself, because if you can't provide evidence, Frontier certainly are not going to listen to you.

 

[NathanM]

Go on google, find the easy to find cheat forums. You can then find the bot downloads and instructions on how to set them up and work them and run your own. If running your own isn't proof enough for you, then you're not interested in reality or facts.

edit: you're not going to get any better proof ... fdev has no incentive to provide any and plenty of incentive to not. you can't "name and shame" or post cheats etc here without getting banned so nobody is going to post anything here.

But you could go on a site like youtube. Type in a search such as "elite dangerous bot example" and magically all of these examples will be there for your evidential review. That takes a whole 30 seconds of effort.

You know most of those "download this for infinite credits in game X" are not real right? Its a scam intended to get you to download something dodgy.

I dont doubt that its possible to bot, particularly repetitive missions, then again if the game is so good its essentially free AND one of the main ways to play is mindlessly grind, how about we leave it to the bots? Honestly if a bunch of bots can "win" something so easily, its clearly broken.

On a serious note, make the rewards scale with time - first hour you get max rewards for powerplay, second you get 10% less etc... and after 10 hours you get nothing, go sleep till tomorrow. Sure every l33t botter would switch accounts every hour but they would only get 24 hours of reward per day, compared to now when they can get as many times this as they have accounts. Or make it give 100% for 6 hours in 24 so non-botters can get 6 hours at 100% for 6 hours played, whatever.

 

[Darth Ender]

That was on Saturday 6th February 2021 at 5:54pm UK time.
So please don't parrot responses at me that others are also repeating like you're one of the sheep.

what are you talking about?

If you have seen proof, please PM it to me. I honestly would like to see it.
I won't just accept bots are a problem just because someone else says so, I would like to see the evidence for myself, because if you can't provide evidence, Frontier certainly are not going to listen to you.

Fdev gets plenty of proof, they're not going to share it with the public. Check the post again learn how to use google and search. The onus isn't on me to convince some random forum user about something that's been going on for years. Fdev certainly knows about it and like anything involving cheating / abuse in the game, doesn't acknowledge or talk about any actions they've taken or how prevelant it is or allow such "evidence" to be posted here.

You know most of those "download this for infinite credits in game X" are not real right? Its a scam intended to get you to download something dodgy.

i'm pretty sure i never mentioned anything about that. There is a cheat engine that is common and used in many games and works in elite dangerous. This is used to do things such as attack other ships with massive DPS (1000%) or take no damage etc. This is detectable by FDev to some degree but, you still get under the radar when you only use it against NPC's and nobody sees you.

That's often combined with botting software.

That's not a gimmick or scam. They most definitely exist and have been around for a while. If you're in that scene, you know where to go for the real deal.


It's unlikely fdev would ever be able to stop people from running bot software to play the game for them... but fixing it would revolve around making all of the repetitive gameplay loops extremely low paying and having another tier of game play loops that offer rewards that scale with the skill required to get them and those would ideally be much more complex and difficult to script for and much less friendly to include cheats that go undetected.

That would have the bonus effect of improving the gameplay for everyone.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

It wouldn't be an entire solution but it'd help, even when bots aren't involved. If nothing else, I don't see why people playing in singleplayer mode should be able to impact more than themselves.

Regardless, whatever we may think about the idea, involving the words 'open' and 'only' in any solution is going to fall flat on its face.

If only because Jane Turner herself isn't going to countenance this as any part of it. I'm sure she's in a very good position to know FDev's stance on this after all.

 

[Alien]

Fdev gets plenty of proof, they're not going to share it with the public. Check the post again learn how to use google and search. The onus isn't on me to convince some random forum user about something that's been going on for years. Fdev certainly knows about it and like anything involving cheating / abuse in the game, doesn't acknowledge or talk about any actions they've taken or how prevelant it is or allow such "evidence" to be posted here.

1. I am very competent in my ability to use Google search, so I'd appreciate you not insulting me, so that I don't have freedom to insult you in reply.
2. I'm not asking Frontier to share evidence with me, I am asking those insisting bots are a problem, as I said to you a few posts ago, look back through this thread at my previous posts. (The forum has a search thread function that also allows you to search by user)
3. The burden of proof is always on the accusers. I am not making the claim bots are a problem, so therefore the burden of proof is not on me.
4. If you've seen proof of bots being used, feel free to share it with me. If you haven't seen any proof of bots being used, why are you mindlessly repeating what others have said? Why are you not also asking to see evidence? Would you not want to be able to spot bots in your own playing? How are you going to recognise bots if you haven't see evidence of them being used?

 

[Darth Ender]

That was on Saturday 6th February 2021 at 5:54pm UK time.

So please don't parrot responses at me that others are also repeating like you're one of the sheep.
If you have seen proof, please PM it to me. I honestly would like to see it.
I won't just accept bots are a problem just because someone else says so, I would like to see the evidence for myself, because if you can't provide evidence, Frontier certainly are not going to listen to you.

1. I am very competent in my ability to use Google search, so I'd appreciate you not insulting me, so that I don't have freedom to insult you in reply.

Obviously, not if you are still asking for evidence. If i can search and find bots being utilized in the game that go back 4 years where people video recorded themselves using them in 30 seconds then your competence in using google is most definitely questionable.

2. I'm not asking Frontier to share evidence with me, I am asking those insisting bots are a problem, as I said to you a few posts ago, look back through this thread at my previous posts. (The forum has a search thread function that also allows you to search by user)

You are because they're the only ones with the data you are demanding unless you think you're going to get some actual bot users to self incriminate. Any other "evidence" users can gleam from the BGS in the game can always be hand-waved away as the legitimate actions of users, since they will always appear the same to the end user - only varying in plausibility.

3. The burden of proof is always on the accusers. I am not making the claim bots are a problem, so therefore the burden of proof is not on me.

Yea, the tools are available. The evidence as best as available has been noted. We know from admissions that certain botters have been banned (at least temporarily) after being reported. There is nothing further needed to prove. All you're left with is moving the goal post of defining if it's a "problem".

4. If you've seen proof of bots being used, feel free to share it with me. If you haven't seen any proof of bots being used, why are you mindlessly repeating what others have said? Why are you not also asking to see evidence? Would you not want to be able to spot bots in your own playing? How are you going to recognise bots if you haven't see evidence of them being used?

the only one parroting mindlessly is you and this empty argument that botting either doesn't exist or that it is ineffective.

 

[Leadfoot]

No, you provided a link to an article in SagEye that is complete fiction. It's written from an in-game perspective, not an out-of-game perspective. Not once in that article is Frontier Developments mentioned. The Pilot's Federation is mentioned, Lave Radio is even mentioned as an in-game group. That article is no more evidence of bots being used than Drew Wagar's 2 books based in the Elite Dangerous universe.
Do Better.

Actually, the reason why I pointed to that article is specifically because the mag is put out by players for players. They also interviewed players affected by this "bot" activity. They aren't "fictional" characters being interviewed; rather, they interviewed players that actually investigated this mysterious behavior. Everything that I read in that article had been mentioned here in this forum (perhaps not this specific thread) several times before, with the same evidence presented there.

I guess I'll have to go search the forums for the specific thread you missed that had players do their own investigation and provided pretty solid evidence of bots being used in-game. Don't wait for me. I'm sure if someone else knows about the threads I'm referring-to, they'll probably post it before I get a chance to do so myself.

BGS/Powerplay needs to be an Open only mode. Don't need a captcha system we need to be rid of solo and private groups having an influence on mechanics that are supposed to be there to encourage player cooperation and competition.
The bots can then be visually seen, identified, ganked, reported to our heart's content.
We are trying to find solutions to issues that the Developers created.

I agree that Power Play should be open only but until all platforms are seen by all other platforms (i.e., all players see all other players) even PP-open won't do much good. I doubt you could run bots on PS4 or Xbox-one but then I don't know that much about them. I had, at one time, suggested that if CQC servers weren't being used much (are they?) perhaps Power Play could be on it's own server, open only, all platforms. I really don't know how practical that is, to be honest.

When bots were first noticed by other players, they were noticed in open. Once attention to their actions was brought to bear, they all seemed to go into Solo mode. We PP members notice the actions of 5C activities all the time (those of us on the receiving end, that is) and that causes the affected faction to have to work triple-time to overcome the sabotage being caused. No one, on any platform, ever sees these players, but what they do would require a large number of accounts (I won't call them 'players' in this case) to work 24 hours/day to accomplish this. That requires "us" to work double and even triple effort to blunt their activities.

 

[Christopher Roberto]

No one, on any platform, ever sees these players, but what they do would require a large number of accounts (I won't call them 'players' in this case) to work 24 hours/day to accomplish this.

With how buggy and exploitable the game is in general like with the various gold rushes it goes through, maybe someone's just found a trick for influence gainz and it's getting misattributed to botting.

 

[Alien]

OK, you chose to be insulting. And stupid.
Let's go through this post.

You are because they're the only ones with the data you are demanding

I am not demanding, I am asking. Big difference.
Also, you contradicted yourself in the same post:

Obviously, not if you are still asking for evidence. If i can search and find bots being utilized in the game that go back 4 years where people video recorded themselves using them in 30 seconds then your competence in using google is most definitely questionable.

So if your ability to search Google is so amazing, and you have seen such evidence of bots being used, please, do PM me links to said evidence, you have seen it, you say so right here.

The evidence as best as available has been noted.

Please do share "the evidence" I honestly want to see it.

There is nothing further needed to prove. All you're left with is moving the goal post of defining if it's a "problem".

I'm not saying it is not a problem, I'm not saying it is a problem either. I am wanting to see the evidence for myself, which both you and KKomrade both claim to have seen, yet don't PM links to me so I can see it. And yes, YOU DO NEED TO PROVE THIS IS A PROBLEM. This thread has been going for 4 days now, and repeatedly proof has been asked for by many people, and no proof has yet to be provided. Please do shut me up by PM'ing to me links to said proof.

the only one parroting mindlessly is you and this empty argument that botting either doesn't exist or that it is ineffective.

Yes, I am repeating myself, you are correct, because you don't have any proof or you'd shut me up by PM'ing it to me. Also, I am not saying it is not a problem, here's the last time in this thread I said so.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but go back through this thread and count up how many times I've asked for proof bots are being used.
I'm still waiting.

If you did a simple search of my posts in this thread, as I suggested, you would know this. I can't imagine a simple search in a thread by a user would be hard for a Google-Fu master such as yourself
Well? Do you have proof of bots or not? Time to put up or shut up.

 

[Brrokk]

BGS/Powerplay needs to be an Open only mode. ...

Doesn't.

OK, I've got a new conspiracy theory: the whole thing about bots is cooked up by conspirators to make Open-only stuff seem like a good idea.

I claim that this fits the observed facts better than ideas about invisible bots.

 

[gorankar]

Bots are a big problem.

OK, show us the evidence.

It's there.

That's not really all that conclusive.

Is too.

Is not.

Is too.

Is not.

I am pretty sure we are just circling the bowl at this point.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Bots are a big problem.

OK, show us the evidence.

It's there.

That's not really all that conclusive.

Is too.

Is not.

Is too.

Is not.

I am pretty sure we are just circling the bowl at this point.

Half of the problem is that 'proof' would break the "Name & Shame" rule, the other half as the number of bots in use is completely unknown by players...
Naturally, by raising the profile of the alleged 'issue' in the forum, using a known and respected name as poster, would serve to have forumites spend a moment or two reading the topic too.

But, we still walk away from the thread with no tangible evidence of the scale of 'botting' in the game currently. Although I believe no-one questions they exist.

 

[Darth Ender]

OK, you chose to be insulting. And stupid.
Let's go through this post.

Defensive much? I have not been insulting at all. You have. You've refused to do the bare minimum searching for the evidence you seem to want so badly and have been requested it in a forum that bans users for linking to such things. Do you think that a private message magically makes someone immune from being reported?

I am not demanding, I am asking. Big difference.

Those are not mutually exclusive. Your statement requires (aka, demands) an action (providing you with what is easily googlable). You are demanding it.

Also, you contradicted yourself in the same post:

Really, where?

So if your ability to search Google is so amazing, and you have seen such evidence of bots being used, please, do PM me links to said evidence, you have seen it, you say so right here.

I gave you a step by step on how to do it yourself. I'm not going to blatently post links to things that can and do result in bans here. If you're incapable of following simple directions then i dont think there is any hope or really any point in trying to convince you.

Please do share "the evidence" I honestly want to see it.

Please, you obviously dont or you wouldn't need everyone else to show you something you could find on your own with little to no effort.

I'm not saying it is not a problem, I'm not saying it is a problem either. I am wanting to see the evidence for myself, which both you and KKomrade both claim to have seen, yet don't PM links to me so I can see it. And yes, YOU DO NEED TO PROVE THIS IS A PROBLEM. This thread has been going for 4 days now, and repeatedly proof has been asked for by many people, and no proof has yet to be provided. Please do shut me up by PM'ing to me links to said proof.

There has been years of reporting and evidence gathering efforts on this. You refuse to believe it. That doesn't make it not exist. This issue hasn't been going on for 4 days. It's been going on for years and most reportings are private to Fdev and not also aired on the forum due to "name and shaming" rules.

here's one from 3 years ago https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...o-further-abuses-of-bgs-and-powerplay.415816/

OpenCV has been used for going on 4 years now to create bots that can effectively play many game loops in the game due to their simplistic grindy nature and lack of any skill needed to complete them. It's not a question of if players are using them but just how many. It's not a question of if they're being used to impact the BGS, but just how often that manipulation negatively impacts players. It's not a question of if botting is used for personal gain by players. We know it is because it exists. We know Fdev believes at least some of the reports and has some automated systems in place to react to some uses of botting and cheating because we have users in cheat-tool forums talking about how they've been banned and for what.

You dont want proof, because you'd need to be blind to think there isn't any. In the end, convincing you doesn't matter. Fdev knows it exists and they've taken action in the past regarding it. The point is that they've not gone far enough as far as some people are concerned. Not that they dont believe it happens or is a problem.

Yes, I am repeating myself, you are correct, because you don't have any proof or you'd shut me up by PM'ing it to me. Also, I am not saying it is not a problem, here's the last time in this thread I said so.

If you did a simple search of my posts in this thread, as I suggested, you would know this. I can't imagine a simple search in a thread by a user would be hard for a Google-Fu master such as yourself
Well? Do you have proof of bots or not? Time to put up or shut up.

edautopilot is a public git project with source code that's been available since 2018 and still developed as recently as 7 months ago. This source has been forked by various authors for more featurful auto-piloting type bots and those forks are what you'll find being distributed on cheating forums. However, the good forums require a login.

There are numerous youtube videos of this and forks of this being used and how it functions.

I'm not posting anything specific regarding bots and cheats on frontier's forums. If you can't be bothered to do some simple searches for the evidence you say you want to see then that's on you.

Fdev is well aware and believes that bots exist and have suspended users for it. We're not in a battle to prove it to them and I dont care if some random forum user doesn't believe it - you're too late to the party if you think your opinion is going to convince fdev that they aren't a problem.

 

[Alien]

Defensive much? I have not been insulting at all. You have. You've refused to do the bare minimum searching for the evidence you seem to want so badly and have been requested it in a forum that bans users for linking to such things. Do you think that a private message magically makes someone immune from being reported?

You were insulting here:

then your competence in using google is most definitely questionable.

That IS insulting. I don't care now about anything you have to say for two reasons, 1.) You insulted me and then claim you were not being insulting. 2.) If you have evidence bots are a problem, share it. I have looked, as have others, and we simply can't find it. YOU claim to have seen it, so end this discussion right now SHARE THE EVIDENCE, because if you carry on insulting me not only am I going to start reporting your posts, I'm simply going to keep showing how much of a troll you are.

Don't bother posting anything else. Evidence, share it in a PM or shut up.