General / Off-Topic The Covid vaccine must be mandatory ?

[Arry]

You were saying covid patients were knowingly plonked into care homes causing needless deaths.

I'm saying without tests you can't ID the asymptomatic ones and that symptomatic patients were not moved.

Which you think is the party line and a cover up .

Cover up? Why do you insist on keep going back to this 'conspiracy subject'. This is you figment, not mine. I DEAL WITH THE FACTS.

Yes I AM stating that Covid patients WERE put into care homes. This happened due to a top down policy. You or anyone else cannot deny this FACT.

The without tests, question. NHS was instructed 'not to test', any of the patients, to be discharged to care homes. (This alone, proves intent) Of course they did not move any of the known current Covid cases, at the time. But it IS a fact, that 28,000+ people were moved out of the hospitals, (hi-risk Covid zones) into care homes, without testing and more people died, because of this. Yes there were no test kits available, to the NHS. But this due to them not being brought from an available source and an insistence, on producing them in the U.K.

Stop pushing this towards politics.

If you want to talk of conspiracies: Take the Barnard Castle trip and how many conspired to 'justify' those actions. That IS a conspiracy. A group of 3 or more people, planing together, to mislead, cover up or commit a crime.

 

[Stigbob]

Mathematically I can say 100% of covid patients had covid, it goes without saying

Of which one in three had no symptoms.

Covered up? Why do you insist on keep going back to this 'conspiracy subject'. This is you figment, not mine. I DEAL WITH THE FACTS.

Yes I AM stating that Covid patients WERE put into care homes. This happened due to a top down policy. You or anyone else cannot deny this FACT.

The without tests, question. NHS was instructed 'not to test', any of the patients, to be discharged to care homes. (This alone, proves intent) Of course they did not move any of the current Covid cases, at the time. But it IS a fact, that 28,000+ people were moved out of the hospitals, (hi-risk Covid zones) into care homes, without testing and more people died, because of this. Yes there were no test kits available, to the NHS. But this due to them not being brought from an available source and an insistence, on producing them in the U.K.

Stop pushing this towards politics.

If you want to talk of conspiracies: Take the Barnard Castle trip and how many conspired to 'justify' those actions. That IS a conspiracy. A group of 3 or more people, planing together, to mislead, cover up or commit a crime.

There was never a policy top down or otherwise to put patients with covid in care homes.

People like me would have refused to do it and I would have noticed if they asked.

That's the thing with conspiracies they rely on a lack of facts.

 

[Arry]

Of which one in three had no symptoms.

There was never a policy top down or otherwise to put patients with covid in care homes.

People like me would have refused to do it and I would have noticed if they asked.

That's the thing with conspiracies they rely on a lack of facts.

"There was never a policy top down or otherwise to put patients with Covid in care homes." What a stupid statement. It comes close to the quote. They were not legally required to test, until June 2020. I have never said that there was a policy to put Covid patients into care homes. Just not to test any to be discharged, which by definition, would include any possibly infected.

People did refuse, did speak out and that is how it became public. That is why it became a legal requirement, for 'everyone' to be tested; from June 2020 onwards. Of course, following the play-book, would have made testing a 'normal requirement': From day one.

 

[Arry]

Of which one in three had no symptoms.

There was never a policy top down or otherwise to put patients with covid in care homes.

People like me would have refused to do it and I would have noticed if they asked.

That's the thing with conspiracies they rely on a lack of facts.

Covid-19: Lack of testing led to patients being discharged to care homes with virus, say auditors

Many patients in hospitals with covid-19 may have been discharged to care homes in March and April because of a lack of testing capacity at the time in England, auditors have reported. The National Audit Office said that actions taken by the NHS to increase capacity meant there were enough beds...

www.bmj.com

Read that and chew on those facts.

 

[Patrick_68000]

No.
Blood pressure is a number.
Pulse rate is a number.
Hemoglobin level is a number.

Numbers are real. Numbers define our lives.

Stop being silly.
Would you cross a bridge made with no mathematics? Because philosophically, that is exactly where you are standing.

We are not talking about mathematics used in the same field.

Stupidity doesn't seem to be just for me.

 

[Stigbob]

Covid-19: Lack of testing led to patients being discharged to care homes with virus, say auditors

Many patients in hospitals with covid-19 may have been discharged to care homes in March and April because of a lack of testing capacity at the time in England, auditors have reported. The National Audit Office said that actions taken by the NHS to increase capacity meant there were enough beds...

www.bmj.com

Read that and chew on those facts.

You mean the story about a lack of testing leading to accidental discharges of asymptomatic covid positive people ?. It proves my point.

Error not evil. No deliberate policy.

 

[Gortron]

I don’t want to get involved in the current ding dong really but it’s been on the BBC news and possibly even a Panorama episode that the NHS was discharging patients it at least suspected had covid back to care homes without informing the care homes.

I don’t think it was a sinister plot where anyone decided to deliberately kill off old people but it was a massive failure all round that it happened. Maybe the NHS was told to clear wards for all the people expected would be coming. Maybe it was just that tests weren’t being done or available.

The NHS do a fantastic job but they aren’t beyond reproach and the Government certainly aren’t. When this is all over and we have finished licking our wounds, we need to take a serious look out ourselves and work out what the hell went so wrong. The worst thing we could do though it just try to pin the blame on something or someone. The UK is made up of 4 different countries and they all managed to mess it up to various degrees. Scientists don’t always agree and Science, perhaps mistakenly, was given more weight than common sense. The NHS was probably so over-protected we will probably lots of people that will die because they didn’t think they should or wouldn’t be admitted. There is lots to learn if we don’t find a scapegoat.

 

[Stigbob]

I don’t want to get involved in the current ding dong really but it’s been on the BBC news and possibly even a Panorama episode that the NHS was discharging patients it at least suspected had covid back to care homes without informing the care homes.

I don’t think it was a sinister plot where anyone decided to deliberately kill off old people but it was a massive failure all round that it happened. Maybe the NHS was told to clear wards for all the people expected would be coming. Maybe it was just that tests weren’t being done or available.

Individuals lie or make mistakes for whatever reason.

The formal policies on covid are don't move it or anything that might be it except to covid wards specifically for containment. Pre testing that's a hard thing to achieve with a virus that has a wide range of potential symptoms and none at all in 30% of the people who have it.

The NHS do a fantastic job but they aren’t beyond reproach and the Government certainly aren’t. When this is all over and we have finished licking our wounds, we need to take a serious look out ourselves and work out what the hell went so wrong. The worst thing we could do though it just try to pin the blame on something or someone. The UK is made up of 4 different countries and they all managed to mess it up to various degrees. Scientists don’t always agree and Science, perhaps mistakenly, was given more weight than common sense. The NHS was probably so over-protected we will probably lots of people that will die because they didn’t think they should or wouldn’t be admitted. There is lots to learn if we don’t find a scapegoat.

People should wash pangolins thoroughly before eating them.

 

[Arry]

You mean the story about a lack of testing leading to accidental discharges of asymptomatic covid positive people ?. It proves my point.

Error not evil. No deliberate policy.

Try again and not focus on what you would like it to say. Example: is there really any mention of the word. Accidental? There are however, at least a couple of mentions of the word; policy.

To be honest. I have had enough of flogging this particular dead horse. I don't have to convince myself, or most of the people here, that people died, due to the actions of callous men and it is absolutely pointless trying to get you to see, or even agree with the facts, so why am I wasting my time here?

 

[Arry]

Individuals lie or make mistakes for whatever reason.

The formal policies on covid are don't move it or anything that might be it except to covid wards specifically for containment. Pre testing that's a hard thing to achieve with a virus that has a wide range of potential symptoms and none at all in 30% of the people who have it.



People should wash pangolins thoroughly before eating them.

You will keep quoting current policy. Even most of the Gov dot web-sites, have been 'amended' at a later date.

Nope: enough.

 

[Stigbob]

Try again and not focus on what you would like it to say. Example: is there really any mention of the word. Accidental? There are however, at least a couple of mentions of the word; policy.

To be honest. I have had enough of flogging this particular dead horse. I don't have to convince myself, or most of the people here, that people died, due to the actions of callous men and it is absolutely pointless trying to get you to see, or even agree with the facts, so why am I wasting my time here?

Its a load of rubbish for various practical down to earth reasons to think it was ever a policy. The pandemic is a pretty chaotic thing, resources and some people are stretched beyond breaking point. Things go wrong, you do what you can.

You will keep quoting current policy. Even most of the Gov dot web-sites, have been 'amended' at a later date.

Nope: enough.

Reality just isn't that organised.

 

[Arry]

Its a load of rubbish for various practical down to earth reasons to think it was ever a policy. The pandemic is a pretty chaotic thing, resources and some people are stretched beyond breaking point. Things go wrong, you do what you can.



Reality just isn't that organised.

Game Over!

The British Medical Journal - To quote Stigbob - 'its a load of rubbish.'

Q.E.D.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

I don't have to convince myself, or most of the people here, that people died, due to the actions of callous men and it is absolutely pointless trying to get you to see, or even agree with the facts, so why am I wasting my time here?

As you know, I'm not in the UK.

But I have to institutionalize my father tomorrow. He's unvaccinated, the entire building he's going to enter is unvaccinated, the staff there is unmasked(why is that?) , and we simply do not know if hospital cases will enter the compound in the same way as the UK. He'll be isolated for 7 days by their protocols.

So this back and forth is highly relevant to me.

I need to calculate the risks again. There is no easy answer.

 

[sewerratuk]

Hindsight is a great way to point fingers at people. The opposition will always win with these arguments

 

[Arry]

As you know, I'm not in the UK.

But I have to institutionalize my father tomorrow. He's unvaccinated, the entire building he's going to enter is unvaccinated, the staff there is unmasked(why is that?) , and we simply do not know if hospital cases will enter the compound in the same way as the UK. He'll be isolated for 7 days by their protocols.

So this back and forth is highly relevant to me.

I need to calculate the risks again. There is no easy answer.

Apologies. Seriously meant, you are one of the true heroes of this catastrophe and it has been, very insensitive of me, to keep banging on, like I have been. Again: Sorry.

 

[Stigbob]

Game Over!

The British Medical Journal - To quote Stigbob - 'its a load of rubbish.'

Q.E.D.

 

[ianw]

As you know, I'm not in the UK.

But I have to institutionalize my father tomorrow. He's unvaccinated, the entire building he's going to enter is unvaccinated, the staff there is unmasked(why is that?) , and we simply do not know if hospital cases will enter the compound in the same way as the UK. He'll be isolated for 7 days by their protocols.

So this back and forth is highly relevant to me.

I need to calculate the risks again. There is no easy answer.

It's a tricky one for sure.

Here at the moment the debate is whether care home workers should be forced to be vaccinated - there is apparently a fair bit of resistance to that - on the other hand residents and their families feel they should be.

It's not just other residents that are likely to bring the infection in - it's far more likely to be the staff - perhaps a symptomatically mixing with the general population, each other in the residence and many of the residents.

And you say they're not wearing masks.

 

[Patrick_68000]

EU will not renew orders for the vaccines from AstraZeneca and J&J.

The Commission wants to focus on mRNA vaccines, with a new order for 1.8 billion doses from Pfizer and BioNTech.

Tonight we can say that AZ and J&J's career in the EU is over.

Indeed the ridiculous slogan of the "Benefit / risk ratio" had no weight on the lucidity, common sense, prudence and intelligence of the majority of people.

Humans are not statistics.

Covid-19 : L’UE ne renouvellera pas ses commandes de vaccins auprès d’AstraZeneca et de J&J

La Commission veut se focaliser sur les vaccins à ARNm, avec une nouvelle commande chiffrée à 1,8 milliard de doses auprès de Pfizer et...-Laboratoires pharma

www.industriepharma.fr

 

[Stigbob]

EU will not renew orders for the vaccines from AstraZeneca and J&J.

The Commission wants to focus on mRNA vaccines, with a new order for 1.8 billion doses from Pfizer and BioNTech.

Tonight we can say that AZ and J&J's career in the EU is over.

Indeed the ridiculous slogan of the "Benefit / risk ratio" had no weight on the lucidity, common sense, prudence and intelligence of the majority of people.

Humans are not statistics.

Good news, the Italian military police can now return the shipment they seized.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Good news, the Italian military police can now return the shipment they seized.

No reason for that.

These are doses that the EU paid for and AZ never delivered.

The EU will still be able to sell them to the UK for example