General / Off-Topic The Covid vaccine must be mandatory ?

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Personally, it is not because AZ and J&J are going to be abandoned in the EU that I have more confidence in Pfizer for which we do not have enough hindsight.

I will therefore wait 2-3 years before considering getting vaccinated, if it is still really necessary at that time.

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Here at the moment the debate is whether care home workers should be forced to be vaccinated - there is apparently a fair bit of resistance to that - on the other hand residents and their families feel they should be.
It is not for others to decide for you if you should take the vaccine.

This kind of dictatorship is unbearable and I understand the caregivers who resign from their posts and change jobs.

Without caregivers, residents and their families will be able to care for each other. Good luck with that.

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Apologies. Seriously meant, you are one of the true heroes of this catastrophe and it has been, very insensitive of me, to keep banging on, like I have been. Again: Sorry.

Not at all- I'm no different to anyone else. Cmdr Gortron is much more of a hero than me. Cmdr. Stigbob operates an ambulance - so how many has he saved? Everybody has acted heroically in some manner: simply getting through this is difficult.

We're going to go ahead and proceed with my father. Risk of Covid is low relative to the risk of another stroke at night, and it isn't possible to control everything.

It's a tricky one for sure.
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And you say they're not wearing masks.

No. Looked into it, and the staff there is live in. External contacts are very limited.
So neither residents nor staff need to be masked as the community is effectively closed off.
It's a relatively safe bubble. They are negotiating to have vaccines brought in.
 
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As you know, I'm not in the UK.

But I have to institutionalize my father tomorrow. He's unvaccinated, the entire building he's going to enter is unvaccinated, the staff there is unmasked(why is that?) , and we simply do not know if hospital cases will enter the compound in the same way as the UK. He'll be isolated for 7 days by their protocols.

So this back and forth is highly relevant to me.

I need to calculate the risks again. There is no easy answer.
I don’t envy your position Robin, good luck with whatever you decide.
I think we’re all going to have to live with trying to mitigate where possible and working out the odds with whatever data you can trust.

When it comes to decisions about the elderly or vulnerable, there’s more factors that come into the balance.
I know a few people who have stretched some of the rules but the alternative would have been significant distress/harm and this came into the decision/risk evaluation.

Regarding the clearing of the hospitals back at the beginning, I think it’s also good to keep in mind the context at that time: we were building the huge xcel centre nightingale hospital; expecting a potential huge influx; Boris begging trump for ventilators;
I think they where simply weighing the then current data (and lack of) and making their own risk judgements-
They must have known that not testing was a risk, but IMO went with it because other risks (they determined) were greater.
So a bit of a conspiracy but also pragmatic :-D
 
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I think they where simply weighing the then current data (and lack of) and making their own risk judgements-
They must have known that not testing was a risk, but IMO went with it because other risks (they determined) where greater.
So a bit of a conspiracy but also pragmatic :-D

These are the kinds of decisions that make you really glad you didn't make.

If you have a pandemic roaring along and there are elderly folks in hospital with no symptoms of it, evacuating them out to their care homes ASAP out of infectious hospitals seems like a good plan. Except it wasn't, was it?

We're all probably doing similar things all the time that seem reasonable- it's just we're lucky so far.
 
Hindsight is a great way to point fingers at people. The opposition will always win with these arguments
Didn't take much foresight to see that pretending it wasn't a problem, "It's no worse than the flu", the economy is more important than "minor" diseases was lining up the rectum with the camshaft.
 
Dr. Peter Drobac, Director of the Skoll Centre for Social Entrepreneurship at Oxford Saïd Business School, said that despite the rarity of the blood clots in both AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson's vaccines, any adverse effects could worsen vaccine hesitancy and even misinformation.
"It may fuel conspiracy theories around the world about a two-tiered society. If wealthy countries say they are only going to have 'gold standard' with the most expensive vaccines and then say AstraZeneca is not good enough for us in the global north, but it is good enough for the global south, it could reduce uptake of the vaccine and hamper efforts to vaccinate the world," he told CNN.

By this point, we already have this problem.
The thing that creates the most equality is oddly the virus. It will remorselessly kill humans of any station. It's humans that treat each other unfairly.


This old info is making the rounds in my circles:

Published online 2007 Feb 14.
Intravenous (i.v.) delivery of recombinant adenovirus serotype 5 (Ad5) vectors for gene therapy is hindered by safety and efficacy problems. We have discovered a new pathway involved in unspecific Ad5 sequestration and degradation. After i.v. administration, Ad5 rapidly binds to circulating platelets, which causes their activation/aggregation

2007 Apr 1
Thrombocytopenia has been consistently reported following the administration of adenoviral gene transfer vectors. The mechanism underlying this phenomenon is currently unknown. In this study, we have assessed the influence of von Willebrand Factor (VWF) and P-selectin on the clearance of platelets following adenovirus administration.

So, for the last THIRTEEN years it has been known that adenoviruses mess with platelets?
Now I didn't know that. ( Had to work it out around last week - you might remember the confusing posts.) But you would think that if Oxford, AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson are going to make vaccines, they might have oh, IDK, looked up if adenoviruses cause any harm before deciding to use them to transport viral proteins? Testing in the trials showed no major issues, except a LOWER rate of clots, confirming functionally low platelets.

So why the odd cases where it's a big issue? If you read the little quotes above the answer is there: I.V. administration.

Can't say this better than Dr. Campbell.

Source: https://youtu.be/WuyAtvwP2H4?t=244


If he's correct, simply changing injection technique might just solve the problem. Just ask your nurse to aspirate please.

I'd posted that low doses of the vaccine in the bloodstream would cause a drop in platelet count before, based on the physiology I knew. Diffusion from muscle to bloodstream would do that.
But if somehow the whole dose is going all at once into a vein, well, ha, that's not a small dose. That's millions of millions of molecules. And it will totally clog the platelets somewhere. Consistent with what we are seeing. It will only happen rarely, to unlucky people if no aspiration step is taken during the shots. This is exactly the same as any other IM injection- put it in the vein by mistake, and you are going to get trouble.

Europe is going to select other vaccines, the US will likely do the same, supply will flow like the Spice to us. This info is waay too complicated for the average layman to follow, and the disinformation is likely to outpace it. WHO guidelines say no aspiration is needed, and that ain't changing fast, nor is the average vaccinator going to catch on quick.

I'll just give the shots to my own family myself.
 
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It may not matter in the future because :

Former heads of state and Nobel laureates are calling on Joe Biden to support a proposal to temporarily lift patents on covid vaccines.

"Such a suspension is a vital and necessary step to end the pandemic", say some 170 signatories of the open letter,

"We are encouraged by reports that your administration is considering a temporary lifting of WTO intellectual property rights during the pandemic, as proposed by South Africa and India"

Filed at the WTO on October 2 by South Africa and India, the proposal has garnered the support of dozens of developing and disadvantaged countries while the developed countries or which host the headquarters of large pharmaceutical groups that have developed vaccines tend to oppose it.

The goal is that any country can produce vaccines without worrying about patents.

Money, money ...

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The CEO of Pfizer conceded Thursday that a third injection would likely be needed in six months to a year, and after, one injection each year.

"But all this must be confirmed, and on the other hand, the variants will play a key role" he said.

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No reason for that.

These are doses that the EU paid for and AZ never delivered.

The EU will still be able to sell them to the UK for example :D ;)

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Nope. It wasn't the stuff the EU ordered and wanted, then blocked being shipped but didn't want, then decided they never wanted anyway. It was never yours to sell.

As an EU taxpayer are you OK with paying ten times the price per person for alternate vaccines that are no less prone to one in a million issues ?. It's going to cost you tens of billions.
 
Nope. It wasn't the stuff the EU ordered and wanted, then blocked being shipped but didn't want, then decided they never wanted anyway. It was never yours to sell.

As an EU taxpayer are you OK with paying ten times the price per person for alternate vaccines that are no less prone to one in a million issues ?. It's going to cost you tens of billions.

You want him to answer a math question?
 
I don’t envy your position Robin, good luck with whatever you decide.
I think we’re all going to have to live with trying to mitigate where possible and working out the odds with whatever data you can trust.

When it comes to decisions about the elderly or vulnerable, there’s more factors that come into the balance.
I know a few people who have stretched some of the rules but the alternative would have been significant distress/harm and this came into the decision/risk evaluation.

Regarding the clearing of the hospitals back at the beginning, I think it’s also good to keep in mind the context at that time: we were building the huge xcel centre nightingale hospital; expecting a potential huge influx; Boris begging trump for ventilators;
I think they where simply weighing the then current data (and lack of) and making their own risk judgements-
They must have known that not testing was a risk, but IMO went with it because other risks (they determined) were greater.
So a bit of a conspiracy but also pragmatic :-D
Supply conspiracies I'm right along side with we've been watching it happen since day one that's just the Tories and sleaze which always go hand in hand. Clearing hospitals is becoming a routine thing every time a new wave is expected it's done very carefully.

The NHS knowingly dumping the infected onto care homes due to a formal policy is just another pandemic conspiracy myth though. You can't put the nefarious plan into action without being able to identify the infected so without the tests (which is what triggered it) it's impossible to implement. Mutually contradictory conspiracy theory cobblers.

Care homes being the only part of UK healthcare where anyone's even considering compulsory vaccination due to low takeup tells you something of the internal culture there.
 
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Nope. It wasn't the stuff the EU ordered and wanted, then blocked being shipped but didn't want, then decided they never wanted anyway. It was never yours to sell.

As an EU taxpayer are you OK with paying ten times the price per person for alternate vaccines that are no less prone to one in a million issues ?. It's going to cost you tens of billions.
On the other hand waiting for 1.8 billion doses of Pfizer will unfortunately take 8 to 10 times more citizens with covid related blood clots than any vaccine could.

So perhaps the EU genii behind that decision figure there's a saving there?

 
Nope. It wasn't the stuff the EU ordered and wanted, then blocked being shipped but didn't want, then decided they never wanted anyway. It was never yours to sell
The EU ordered 130 million doses in the first instance and received only one third in the deadlines.

It is certain that the European Union will not pay what it has not received.

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As an EU taxpayer are you OK with paying ten times the price per person for alternate vaccines that are no less prone to one in a million issues ?. It's going to cost you tens of billions.
Maybe not because there may in the future be a suspension of intellectual property on patents, which would allow states (especially underdeveloped) to manufacture the vaccine at a lower cost.

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