Just do what you do. we ll figure it out together ^^ And the mods will step in when either of us overdoes it ^^
Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
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Just do what you do. we ll figure it out together ^^ And the mods will step in when either of us overdoes it ^^
At which point would you give up on Star Citizen?
ah a misunderstanding on my part, thanks for clearing that up
As far as I m concerned you make your own way in this thread. Its always refreshing to read a new persons perspective and take on this highly debated topic. The objective is NOT to change your view or "convert" you to the (subjective) truth....personally I m interested in how you see things and why. But of course that can involve queries and questions when you state something thats obviously wrong or false or confusing. This threadnaughts community has learned to play along with each other over time. We had a lot of people in the past who stopped participating who encountered what you encounter and perceived it as a swarm attack.
basically....you are new here. When you post something you ll have multiple people (who are generally on the same page speaking from the same concensus) replying to you and while most of us watch a single conversation string with you in the middle you might see it as 10 different conversations mingling together and it can be seen as a lot of pressure. When somebody asks you something you are not obliged to answer, it might not be a "trap" but an innocent attempt to glean more information from you to "figure you out".
Generally speaking I am interested in "absolute truths" in regards to this project. A post claiming that Star Citizen is "the best space sim out there bar none" is not a truth but a subjective opinion. Reasons provided make the statement intelligible for example you find somebody who endures Star Citizens problems and issues while he critisizes other games over the same issues. Somehow the encountered problems are a problem in one game and not a problem in another. Again....this thread and its posters have spent years finding answers and we have a pool of answsers we can apply when somebody "new" comes along basically repeating things we went over multiple times already. You dont know this, when you say something I m willing to give you the benefit and assume you really say what you think because you dont know better or experience this for the first time.
Back to Star Citizen. Obviously SCs development is slow going and troubled. And when you try to figure out the reasons for the reality there is no shortage of excuses provided to let CiG slip away unpunished. Many of those reasons are provided by other fans or taken out of context from the devs themselves and morped into something else that allows the fans to continue. Thats why I replied with "hook....line and sinker" a few pages back because there are people out there who simply believe everything that CiG or its fans say in order to continue. The lack of skepticism and cross checking is responsi9ble for a lot of SC players who have no idea where the project currently stands and where it goes. So many mix future tense with present state claiming things for SC that are years in the future. The question in regards to CiG having to build a new company from the ground up is not if it happend but rather if thats a sufficient reason for SCs current and past development progress. After all a lot of development studios have to ramp up when they first start working on a project and somehow they manage while CiG didnt. Further, in case you apply that mental jump (CiG had to build up a company first, everything is goo) HOW much additional time does that warrant? As we all know this is year 10 of development and SC is still in early alpha, for all we know it ll take another 10 years to get into beta or at least years to release Star Citizen in a state that isnt what people expected it to be. I always find that results speak for themselves and while back in 2015 we were able to hold and defend both positions today there is no doubt that somethings not right, some things not working properly and nobody really knows why. CiGs statements on this dont sound plausible or believable especially when you have a little experience in game development or project management yourself. All of these things have been provided and laid out in this thred but again...you still have "those" people who simply disregard all information or arguments and stand with the company line no matter what.
There is a reason why this thread investigates and examines the people in SCs community as much (if not more) than the project itself.
Something that I m currently "lol"ing about in Star Citizen is that even the smallest things take months and years and the fans seem to be okay with that. AI housing taking 28 weeks is just one of those examples. Its only a number at first but 28 weeks are 7 months or roughly half a year. Keeping CiG going for that long will cost the community or somebody 20-24 million dollars. And as I understand it its handcrafted buildings for AI NPCs to live in so we dont even know if players can utilize them. Knowing SCs AI capabilities its just a nicely textured block NPCs go in and despawn and spawn in. Whatever CiG promotes this AI housing to be...I dont believe it until it happens for me to verify. I dont see why something like this could possibly take half a year but of course I ll wait. Its not my money, I have no say and I couldnt change it anyway.
This is the established pattern with CiG and Star Citizen. CiG claims or announces something then time passes and after several obligatory delays (CiG trademark) the results dont match expectations or the company goes back on its word. Thre have been awesome posts about this phenomenon over the years, a lot of very smart people have shared their insight and I tend to agree with their logic. Personally I feel its "okay" to critisize somebody or something without that making me a hater of having a beef with said thing or person. Star Citizen has started development at the end of 2012 but the moment I provide that simple fact (easily verified) you can be certain that some people will stand up to fight that statement. Either flat out lying about development start (development +really* started in 2016), justifying the long time (CiG had to build up a company first) or pointing to other cherry picked examples of games who took similar, often examples of other games are grossly distorted or exxagarated as well......all to "defend" Star Citizen from criticism.
We routinely asked some of the white knights "how much is too much?" in regards to Star Citizen? I mean regardless how patient or goodwilled you are there has to be an occurance at which point the rose tinted goggles come off and the person gives up. I get that often enough the person doesnt know this moment him or herself but this is an invitation for a thought experiment nothing else. When these questions first came up CiG blew right past the deadlines given or failed to produce results making it a clear choice. But people adjust, its not a simple black or white question. And CiGs much-touted "openess" is basically just a constant line of manipulation where the company feeds its fans crap and manure for the most part.
Maybe Star Citizen will terminate in another 5 years after 15 years of active development and guesstimate 600 million dollars of crowdfunded private peoples money. Maybe people will say "it was worth it" or "at least they tried" but I personally will stand there and ask "it took you guys this long and this much money to figure out you cant do it?" the more we see about Star Citizen the clearer it becomes WHY Roberts was unable to secure a publisher for his project. Instead he approached the clueless people and was willing and not afraid to lie and swindle his way to millions. We dont even have to wait until Star Citizen completes for that statement to make. We KNOW that the 2012 trailer was produced by a different company in Roberts name and none of the things shown existed back then. While a lot of companies "stretch the truth" a little to get a chance CiG has never stopped stretching. Today the project is hard to describe with so much information floating around that its even harded to form an opinion. Nothing about SC is clearcut anymore with every angle of argument having multiple counter arguments throwing the whole thing into chaos when all you try to do is figure out whats what.
Asp usually breaks it down to a very simple concept that everybody can understand. Development started in 2012, its 2021, there is no game! Beautiful ^^
Heh. It is like that thing where adults do adult things on screen. Nobody can define it, and yet everyone knows it when they see it. But let me try anyway. I am not saying that you are doing it, I am only trying to define what I would classify as CIG whiteknighting.
- Maintain a healthy dose of cynicism. Do not be an advocate for a company you paid your money to unless they pay you to do it. They are a business, you are not their friend. They have enough people to take care of their PR.
- Do not speak their language. Future-as-present tense, presenting what they promise as something they already implemented etc.
- Do not find excuses for them. They are great at doing it themselves. It does not matter whether they attempt something ambitious or have great ideas. I have great ideas every time I sit on a toilet. Execution is the only thing that matters. It does not matter whether they "had to build a company first". Every company needs to be built first. They are also not unique in maintaining a game as a service that is being funded by current players. Plenty of companies do it.
- Do not make statements that can be (and probably have been) debunked many times with easily findable references. This conversation has been going on for years, the closet is full of skeletons and it is open for everyone to examine. Provided they want to.
- "The Unprecedented Scope". Do not use this phrase. Like, never. Star Citizen is not that unique. It has two things going for it currently - the mixture of graphical details mixed with planets you can land on, and ship interiors. To the detriment of everything else. Most systems are broken, underdeveloped, sub-par or at most standard. It is still an empty arena sandbox. Now compare it to ED - a graphically dated, grindy, sometimes frustratingly simplistic and undercooked thing. But it has one thing that SC will never achieve - the scale. 400 B stars. You look at a star, you can go there. You find a place in an obscure part of the lore, you can go there. You travel to the edge of Milky Way - you can see it. It is an explorer's dream, with all the tedium real-life exploration entails. It also offers working economy, background political simulation, aliens and tiny bit of influence every player can have on the ongoing narrative. And all of that at about 20% of SC's budget. This is why the scope argument is silly particularly on the ED forum. Scope is a multi-dimensional thing, after all.
Yup, people imprinting their own preconceptions and assumptions up on you.
When i get bored of playing it.
At what point do we think it is a game?
Yeah, lets think about that old adage especially liked in Spectrum, "mile wide inch deep". Lets take for example stuff I least like in ED, combat, and particularly PVP combat. There are enormous number of combinations of ships, weaponry, engineering, experimental effects one could use, some are better some are worse, some are "meta" but in reality even those meta solutions are not perfect ones but need certain playstyle and so on. Afficionados even in these forums argue about those possibilities. And in highly technical way. Very inch deep indeed. And that is just ship build part of that.
When it is published. Not early acces, not "alpha" and so on.
I think you meant - "Do you have an SSD?"I never had any problems with Odyssey, NEVER. Always rock solid 877 frames per second, buttery smooth and so beautiful its hurts.
...must be you
Yeah thats an easy one. When CIG calls it a game and not early playable Alpha, when they release it as a game and say this is it the final product / the MVP / the start of something / the base game we will build on and iterate on. However they release or whatever they release or whatever exists in it or doesn't. When they set a release date and publish 'the game'. When they stand up and say this is it, its released as a game. Its all on their terms when they do that and the players and press can judge it at that point for what it is, not what it will be (CP 2077 / NMS at release heck even Fallout 76 - all slated at launch remember but developed and won fans back).
But we are still waiting for SC Beta. As defined by CIG.
CIG sets the definitions here, nobody can change that and right now they call it an early access Alpha so thats what it is. It may or may bot be playable as an Alpha, but CIG call it that and they should know.
Funnily enough, CIG treat SC as both - a testing pre-alhpa and a playable game. Depending on the context and what fits the narrative on that particular day best.
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sidestepped the whole question.
So there is nothing that could happen that would make you go "you know what? This is it, I ve had it with this project". an eternal "i m having fun, this is fine" attitude?
I find it interesting to think about these things because it provides me with borders and limits in turn helping me to live my life. There are of course things I constantly re-adjust in order to keep going but I m not sure Star Citizen is such an example. Getting old is. I never thought much about getting old or what it entails. Nowadays I wake up with issues that never were problems before or aquire maladies that I used to think of "old peoples problems" before forcing me to admit to myself that I m past my prime days. I m not old....just not as young as I was 20 years ago. But go back 20 years and ask me how I d see people of that age.....a truth I m having to accept and face today.
We had people who said that Star Citizen not being out by 2020 would be their "ceiling" when it comes to acceptance. I wonder what these people do today. Are they out as they said or did they find new reasons to keep going? How far down the rabbid hole did they have to go in order to keep going?
So the "get out of jail card" you propose (at least what I read here) is the "because I m having fun" which is pretty much the endpoint. You having fun doesnt provide any empirical evidence for SCs qualities and is next to worthless when others try to figure out what SC is and is not. Thousands of hours playing and thats the best you can do?
Dont get me wrong. I have games of my own which I played for hundreds and thousands of hours but if somebody would ask me "why" or what it would take to stop playing I think I could come up with a better answer...provided I d care but then....why post here in the first place if you dont? Very possible that your reasons will still not convince others but at least they might make your stance understandable
But with your answer I guess CiG openly lying and deceiving its backers is a-okay as long as you enjoy playing the game. Possble that you dont want to take that look but its still happening....thats what we talk about mostly in this place.
CiGs definition is only half of the equation. They can at any point dump whatever they have right now, call it "release" and be done with it. Is this a game? Well yeah if its accessable and runs but it most definately is not a good or complete one. Elite was released years ago and is considered a "complete game" yet people out there claim its still in active development because it doesnt have space legs and atmospheric planetary landings. I understand their rethoric but refuse to accept it based on my own definition of what a "game" is and is not.
Thats the crux. So many backers in Star Citizen have so drasctically different expectations and opinions even if they all align to "we like what we see" that a finishline provided by CiG (their half) would force all those people to come to terms with reality. No more "lets give them more time" and "its alpha" and "wait until they are done" excuses. I think the important question then will be how many of those folks are honest enough to admit that "nope, this sucks"
I bet a lot of news outlets and online channels just wait for CiG to annnounce early access or release because that allows them to wade in and give a final verdict. CiG just knows that it they did that they would come out with a 3/10 rating or worse because there hardly is anything there that can be called a "game"
sidestepped the whole question.
So there is nothing that could happen that would make you go "you know what? This is it, I ve had it with this project". an eternal "i m having fun, this is fine" attitude?
I find it interesting to think about these things because it provides me with borders and limits in turn helping me to live my life. There are of course things I constantly re-adjust in order to keep going but I m not sure Star Citizen is such an example. Getting old is. I never thought much about getting old or what it entails. Nowadays I wake up with issues that never were problems before or aquire maladies that I used to think of "old peoples problems" before forcing me to admit to myself that I m past my prime days. I m not old....just not as young as I was 20 years ago. But go back 20 years and ask me how I d see people of that age.....a truth I m having to accept and face today.
We had people who said that Star Citizen not being out by 2020 would be their "ceiling" when it comes to acceptance. I wonder what these people do today. Are they out as they said or did they find new reasons to keep going? How far down the rabbid hole did they have to go in order to keep going?
So the "get out of jail card" you propose (at least what I read here) is the "because I m having fun" which is pretty much the endpoint. You having fun doesnt provide any empirical evidence for SCs qualities and is next to worthless when others try to figure out what SC is and is not. Thousands of hours playing and thats the best you can do?
Dont get me wrong. I have games of my own which I played for hundreds and thousands of hours but if somebody would ask me "why" or what it would take to stop playing I think I could come up with a better answer...provided I d care but then....why post here in the first place if you dont? Very possible that your reasons will still not convince others but at least they might make your stance understandable
But with your answer I guess CiG openly lying and deceiving its backers is a-okay as long as you enjoy playing the game. Possble that you dont want to take that look but its still happening....thats what we talk about mostly in this place.
I don't have much in the way of further expectations at this point, just hopes, i enjoy the game as it is, for now, and have stopped putting any money into it years ago.
Perhaps another way to put it would be that i would be sad if the game died tomorrow, i haven't put all that much money into it so i feel like i have had my monies worth, i'm already not beholden to its dream, again just hopeful that in time...
I play, i enjoy, i whatch, i may get bored with it before its done, tho i'm not at that stage yet.
Two white vertical lines and a small white square made Pong a game, so for me as long as there is something you can play on screen you have a game. Each of us then has an opinion on whether we enjoy that game and how long for. I used to find the privet cuttings from a large hedge a great source of material to build a den from as a lad, others would laugh and say what a waste of time. What one makes of SC is exactly that a personal view of what fun is and how long we feel its okay to enjoy it for which of course might be no time or forever.
Some can look beyond eg the performance issues, the marked gap between what you can play and what has been promised and find their "fun" and continue to enjoy that fun as the years go by. Sadly, I cannot. My bad and I am pleased for those who can. Once upon a time I was hooked, but as I went to put my money on, I saw one of the stretch goals and thought - no way. For six months I fought the urge to pledge and then as the mound of stretch goals grew I felt better about my decision, but I have not forgotten the night I sat and thought - have I been an idiot and missed out? Scarily that was eight years ago now and not once has that feeling returned, instead an ever growing conviction that the gut feeling I had back in late 2012 was the right one.
Now lets see what I can do with these privet cuttings.
Some can look beyond eg the performance issues, the marked gap between what you can play and what has been promised and find their "fun" and continue to enjoy that fun as the years go by. Sadly, I cannot. My bad and I am pleased for those who can. Once upon a time I was hooked, but as I went to put my money on, I saw one of the stretch goals and thought - no way. For six months I fought the urge to pledge and then as the mound of stretch goals grew I felt better about my decision, but I have not forgotten the night I sat and thought - have I been an idiot and missed out? Scarily that was eight years ago now and not once has that feeling returned, instead an ever growing conviction that the gut feeling I had back in late 2012 was the right one.
Now lets see what I can do with these privet cuttings.
What does that mean? Beyond "not giving (more) money" there isn't any true active contribution anyway. You don't have to make any definitive judgement call either way. Think there is already fun to be had? Play it, like Mole and Sovapid. Dont like it (yet)? Check back later. No need to join a tribe.
So it's a game whenever CIG says it is 'V1'. That makes it a completely arbitrary term and useless in discussions. Like Valheim, among the most played and succesfull games, would not have been even a game at all because it's 'early access'.
Early access is early acces. It is software in development not a game or application, anything can be changed by whim of developer.
Ahem.... it was a joke, a parody if you will of the banter we get over SC's development.
There are no rules other than what are laid down by FD.
However, there are some conventions we tend to follow, like if you have lots of pics to post, or big pics, put them in spoiler tags, although this is more out of consideration for those reading on mobile. It became a real issue when one of the faithful would come in and spam the thread with JPGs of their JPGs. Not really been a problem for a while though.