The Majority of Players, Play Elite as a Single-Player Non-PvP Experience?

[galahad2069]

DPS is never as accurate as people think, at least in a real combat situation. You might very well be able to build a ship outfitted with all engineered frags that gets 1500 DPS... on paper.

But frags kinda suck past 500m (with Pacifiers it's about double that but they don't do as much dmg as normal frags), and the DPS assumes every pellet from the frag cannon (or volley from all the frag cannons) hits. Then you add resistances on top of that.

It's not only that. DPS figures displayed ingame are accurate, but weapon reload times are not taken into account. This is especially misleading in the case of weapons like frags that can quickly fire a 3-shot burst, after which they need to be reloaded for quite a long time.

An OC pacifier actually has 300 something dps (as displayed in the outfitting screen) - for like 0.6 seconds every 5 seconds or something like that (and during the majority of that period it has 0 dps). Hence the large difference between the displayed and the actual (sustained) dps.

 

[Chaparral]

Both don't have incendiary and then don't do much damages against your 50% kin resist shield and 4 pips in sys.


Here your own words 2 post earlier :

"If I'm visiting Deciat as a sub 20 hour player there is not a problem with me as a player when I get ganked on the pad"

Make your mind.

Sorry - typing too quick.

There is no question that a properly geared frag gank ship can squash a noobie ship at Farseer in just a second.

There is no question that a properly geared frag gank ship can squash a 1K shielded ship with 60% resistances across the board in a few seconds, and prevent the ship from either hiwaking or getting into the protected dock with the appropriate secondaries.

This is all moot anyways given that by OA's survey indicates most people would prefer to avoid PVP (of this kind in particular) and play PVE in pg and solo.

I suppose you could argue that those 90% in OA's survey are playing the game "wrong", and that you are in the 10% that are playing it "right".

It only takes one or two encounters with the 10%ers for players to realize that they need to go play the game "wrong". So win win right?

 

[Sucette]

There is no question that a properly geared frag gank ship can squash a 1K shielded ship with 60% resistances across the board in a few seconds, and prevent the ship from either hiwaking or getting into the protected dock with the appropriate secondaries.

Then you should stop thinking that fighting cyclops or assassination missions makes people good at the game.

And as OA said himself in his first post, this pool was answered by his community who are explorers, and explorers answers aren't an answer for the whole player base. I'm still wondering why, after doing such a statement in his first post, he still have sent the result. "I know I'm don't it wrong but I'm doing it because I want to please the opinion of my viewers"

 

[Amanojaku]

Then you should stop thinking that fighting cyclops or assassination missions makes people good at the game.

And as OA said himself in his first post, this pool was answered by his community who are explorers, and explorers answers aren't an answer for the whole player base. I'm still wondering why, after doing such a statement in his first post, he still have sent the result. "I know I'm don't it wrong but I'm doing it because I want to please the opinion of my viewers"

I'm not so sure OA's community is only explorers. I watch his vids and I play in mostly Open, and I find exploration to be tedious aside from a few very beautiful or exotic destinations. OA doesn't just do exploration vids. A lot of it is information about the game in general.

He's probably also the most watched ED content creator, so a poll from his viewers would be more accurate than a poll from Exigeous or Yamiks. Still, I'm sure even the PvP community agrees most CMDRs stick to single player (or PvE) activities. It's widely known people avoid PvP in ED like a plague.

 

[Drelthar]

I would PREFER to play multiplayer.

I can never manage it though - except some brief multicrew things where people flew my fighters innefectively at thargoids while I actually kill the thing.

It's just... badly designed for multiplayer, really.

 

[SouthernGorilla]

I'm not so sure OA's community is only explorers. I watch his vids and I play in mostly Open, and I find exploration to be tedious aside from a few very beautiful or exotic destinations. OA doesn't just do exploration vids. A lot of it is information about the game in general.

He's probably also the most watched ED content creator, so a poll from his viewers would be more accurate than a poll from Exigeous or Yamiks. Still, I'm sure even the PvP community agrees most CMDRs stick to single player (or PvE) activities. It's widely known people avoid PvP in ED like a plague.

The problem with ED, and space sims in general, is that they try to meld two different games into one and it can never truly work. They advertise as a sim, you can trade and explore and mine and build your own little empire. But then the try to add PvP in on top of it and expect everything to go smoothly. Imagine Origin adding an FPS mechanic to Sims4 and you can easily see the problem with space sims. Sure, some folks would like Sims4 to go Clockwork Orange... but the vast majority would hate it. Literally nobody gets into a space sim hoping they will get attacked by pirates. That's why you see the majority of players staying in solo... it just isn't fun getting forced into a fight you cannot possibly win. "Yay! The school bully took my lunch money! That was fun!" said no one ever. So as long as devs feel the need to mix oil and water, these discussions will go on.

It isn't even a question of people just being averse to violence, or "scared" as so many PvPers like to claim. I enjoy a bit of bounty hunting and once I git gud I plan to play in some CZs and whatnot. But that's all in ships that are built to fight. There I at least have a chance. There's no way I would haul cargo in Open and give some coward a chance to make easy money. Yes, I consider PvPers RPing as pirates the true cowards of space sims. They aren't in CZs going against other fighters in a test of skill. They are going after the easiest targets they can find. How brave, going after a Type 6 with an engineered FDL. I'm the World's Worst Combat Pilot... I've been to the rebuy screen at least half a dozen times in my first couple hundred hours. But even I don't feel the need to punch down. I also don't have any problem going back for more after getting killed.

If they made cargo ships capable of defending themselves, kind of like WWII bombers were, then you'd see more people in open. If devs got over their piracy fetish and confined PvP to actual combat zones, you'd see more people in open. If there were real-world consequences for ganking, you'd see more people in open. But as long as people are made to feel like the little kid on the schoolyard they aren't going to come out to get their teeth kicked in.

As to the actual question in the OP, you'd probably see more people playing in groups in open if there were more people in open. But I don't think it would ever be a substantial percentage of the playerbase. The death of CQC, multicrew, and Powerplay are all pretty strong evidence that the majority of players aren't interested in group activities even if they can be done in Solo mode. Though I suspect Powerplay was mostly abandoned because they hadn't anticipated groups organizing outside the game and overwhelming the individual players.

 

[Captain_Crowbar]

The problem is, grinding for money or materials is just no fun as a group - so majority of the time that's what I'm doing and when I actually want to PLAY the game, I actually do it with friends in a private session.

 

[Amanojaku]

The problem with ED, and space sims in general, is that they try to meld two different games into one and it can never truly work. They advertise as a sim, you can trade and explore and mine and build your own little empire. But then the try to add PvP in on top of it and expect everything to go smoothly. Imagine Origin adding an FPS mechanic to Sims4 and you can easily see the problem with space sims. Sure, some folks would like Sims4 to go Clockwork Orange... but the vast majority would hate it. Literally nobody gets into a space sim hoping they will get attacked by pirates. That's why you see the majority of players staying in solo... it just isn't fun getting forced into a fight you cannot possibly win. "Yay! The school bully took my lunch money! That was fun!" said no one ever. So as long as devs feel the need to mix oil and water, these discussions will go on.

It isn't even a question of people just being averse to violence, or "scared" as so many PvPers like to claim. I enjoy a bit of bounty hunting and once I git gud I plan to play in some CZs and whatnot. But that's all in ships that are built to fight. There I at least have a chance. There's no way I would haul cargo in Open and give some coward a chance to make easy money. Yes, I consider PvPers RPing as pirates the true cowards of space sims. They aren't in CZs going against other fighters in a test of skill. They are going after the easiest targets they can find. How brave, going after a Type 6 with an engineered FDL. I'm the World's Worst Combat Pilot... I've been to the rebuy screen at least half a dozen times in my first couple hundred hours. But even I don't feel the need to punch down. I also don't have any problem going back for more after getting killed.

If they made cargo ships capable of defending themselves, kind of like WWII bombers were, then you'd see more people in open. If devs got over their piracy fetish and confined PvP to actual combat zones, you'd see more people in open. If there were real-world consequences for ganking, you'd see more people in open. But as long as people are made to feel like the little kid on the schoolyard they aren't going to come out to get their teeth kicked in.

As to the actual question in the OP, you'd probably see more people playing in groups in open if there were more people in open. But I don't think it would ever be a substantial percentage of the playerbase. The death of CQC, multicrew, and Powerplay are all pretty strong evidence that the majority of players aren't interested in group activities even if they can be done in Solo mode. Though I suspect Powerplay was mostly abandoned because they hadn't anticipated groups organizing outside the game and overwhelming the individual players.

I see Pirate RP differently. First of all, it's not easy money at all. I've pirated NPCs and if you're lucky you might find 1 or 2 T9s an hour that have LTDs. The payout for time is awful compared to most activities. CMDR pirates usually give fair warning before attacking, and only ask for a few tons of cargo most of the time. Pirate ships are capable of combat for sure, especially against cargo ships, but they aren't dedicated combat ships due to fitting modules needed for piracy. There is actually much more of a risk they'll run into someone RPing a hero (or gankers) and get blown up themselves.

If you're talking about low risk, easy kills, then you're talking about seal clubbers imo. CMDRs in G5 FDLs that purposely target weaker ships and low ranked pilots. I wouldn't call them "cowards" as that implies they never engage tougher CMDRs. I'm sure at least a good chunk of them do. But they definitely fit under the "griefer" or "ganker" label.

Real world consequences don't belong in video games. Crime and punishment might need a few tweaks to cut down on griefing but it doesn't need to go too far. And I would argue that irl rich people literally get away with murder, and CMDRs are millionaires/billionaires. Little kids don't have a choice. The bullies are in the schoolyard but they can't go home. Irl home schooling is "Solo" or "Private" mode. Bombers flew in wings with fighters. I'm not trying to be a b. Just giving counter points.

 

[popuptoaster]

I'm not at all into PvP and play in Mobius mostly (PvE group) but part of the problem for players who are hauling cargo is they are often as min/max as a PvP player. You often find them in an unarmed ships filled with almost nothing but cargo holds in what is essentially a lawless galaxy bearing mind there is no "police force" to hunt down law breakers.

In any comparable, real life situation goods were often moved in convoys with escorts,once the piracy got to bad i mean, lets face it, you may not win every fight against a pirate but if you were moving half the tonnage but it was in an armed and armoured Type-10 Defender with a fighter bay instead of a Type-9, you may make less profit per run but you would also make piracy more risky for the attacker, maybe add to his/her repair bills, force them to dock for repairs etc.

I mean you're never going to win against a dedicated and well armed pirate ship but you could make yourself more trouble than you are worth they might move on to someone else, I can't think why this would drag anyone hauling for max profit out of solo, but if you wanted to try open it might help?

I made a quick video, excuse the poor quality and weird clicking noise that seems to have been generated when i compressed it.

I totally get that PvE and PvP are a different thing and you are not going to win a fight this fast (Or even at all?) against a real pilot, but maybe a small chance is better than no chance?

Source: https://youtu.be/OVzqy6J5km8

 

[stripealipe]

I'm not at all into PvP and play in Mobius mostly (PvE group) but part of the problem for players who are hauling cargo is they are often as min/max as a PvP player. You often find them in an unarmed ships filled with almost nothing but cargo holds in what is essentially a lawless galaxy bearing mind there is no "police force" to hunt down law breakers.

In any comparable, real life situation goods were often moved in convoys with escorts,once the piracy got to bad i mean, lets face it, you may not win every fight against a pirate but if you were moving half the tonnage but it was in an armed and armoured Type-10 Defender with a fighter bay instead of a Type-9, you may make less profit per run but you would also make piracy more risky for the attacker, maybe add to his/her repair bills, force them to dock for repairs etc.

I mean you're never going to win against a dedicated and well armed pirate ship but you could make yourself more trouble than you are worth they might move on to someone else, I can't think why this would drag anyone hauling for max profit out of solo, but if you wanted to try open it might help?

I made a quick video, excuse the poor quality and weird clicking noise that seems to have been generated when i compressed it.

I totally get that PvE and PvP are a different thing and you are not going to win a fight this fast (Or even at all?) against a real pilot, but maybe a small chance is better than no chance?

Source: https://youtu.be/OVzqy6J5km8

Honestly...........

[REDACTED: Content does not comply with forum rules, i.e. profanity.]

 

[stripealipe]

Ah c'mon.... redact and then at least give me a good reason why this 'does not comply' lol... an amazingly tongue-in-cheek yet totally educational video addressing all of the 'open' 'ganking' issues by an amazing pilot, now sorely missed.. is it 'cos it's SDC?!!

Blimey.....

 

[Vorxian]

SOLO all the way... No PvP for me..

How did George Thorogood coin it?

Now every morning just before breakfast
I don't want no coffee or tea
Just me and my good buddy Weiser
That's all I ever need
'Cause I drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

Yeah, the other night I laid sleeping
And I woke from a terrible dream
So I caught up my pal Jack Daniel's
And his partner Jimmy Beam
And we drank alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

Yeah, the other day I got invited to a party
But I stayed home instead
Just me and my pal Johnny Walker
And his brothers Black and Red
And we drank alone, yeah
With nobody else

Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself

Don't need no ganking bored try hard trying to blow up my unshielded cash printing trade cutter....

 

[SouthernGorilla]

Real world consequences don't belong in video games. Crime and punishment might need a few tweaks to cut down on griefing but it doesn't need to go too far. And I would argue that irl rich people literally get away with murder, and CMDRs are millionaires/billionaires. Little kids don't have a choice. The bullies are in the schoolyard but they can't go home. Irl home schooling is "Solo" or "Private" mode. Bombers flew in wings with fighters. I'm not trying to be a b. Just giving counter points.

In any comparable, real life situation goods were often moved in convoys with escorts,once the piracy got to bad i mean, lets face it, you may not win every fight against a pirate but if you were moving half the tonnage but it was in an armed and armoured Type-10 Defender with a fighter bay instead of a Type-9, you may make less profit per run but you would also make piracy more risky for the attacker, maybe add to his/her repair bills, force them to dock for repairs etc.

Some fair points.

First, I misspoke. I should have said "in-game" consequences, not real-world. Gank somebody and their rebuy comes out of your bank, for example. I have no idea how you could work that.

I absolutely agree with the idea of running a T10 instead of a T9. My position has always been that in a universe where piracy was real all cargo ships would be built like T10s in the first place.

As for traveling in wings... that's why I dropped out of SC. That effectively makes you nothing more than mission content for white hats.

I also don't agree with the premise that space would be dangerous. Space is too big. Choke points would be heavily patrolled. And when every ship carries stuff essential to life on hostile rocks, robbing those ships would carry severe penalties.

 

[MishaTX]

I used to be a "carebear" (I hate that expression as much as I hate the expression "griefer" applied to everybody who ever shot at another human player, but it gets the point across). I'm not anymore, I'm pretty much always in Open, certainly whenever I'm doing something where it's only fair that others can oppose me, but I understand both sides.

I get it that some people just don't want to be bothered, nothing wrong with that. I think, however, that a lot of the issues with being bothered could be alleviated if FDev were a little less opaque about how the BGS and Powerplay works. It took me a LONG time to figure it out even slightly, and I'm still learning.

For example: If you're an explo-boat, and I spent a lot of time exploring and still like to do it, and you come back to sell your data and get your tags, you're probably not aware (if you're a new player or even one with a long time under his/her belt) that where you sell it matters. Let's say that I'm a pilot supporting a minor faction and you're coasting in to sell half a billion credits worth of explo-data to a station controlled by a faction opposed to mine. That's going to hurt my faction big time. So I blow you out of the sky to keep that from happening (actually, I don't, I'll warn you first and THEN blow you out of the sky if you fail to comply and I can do it), but it's not personal.

But if you, the innocent explorer just coming back with your data, have no way of knowing what the consequences of your actions might be because the game has failed to adequately inform you, it will look like I'm just some sort of sociopath who gets his jollies from blowing you up.

That's not your fault. It's not mine either.

I would never, have never, touched anybody in space without a good reason to do so, but if the game does a poor job of explaining what the reasons might be, we end up with this mess where everybody is shouting at each other and nobody's learning anything.

I'd like that addressed.

Thanks for being at my TED talk.

 

[SouthernGorilla]

I used to be a "carebear" (I hate that expression as much as I hate the expression "griefer" applied to everybody who ever shot at another human player, but it gets the point across). I'm not anymore, I'm pretty much always in Open, certainly whenever I'm doing something where it's only fair that others can oppose me, but I understand both sides.

I get it that some people just don't want to be bothered, nothing wrong with that. I think, however, that a lot of the issues with being bothered could be alleviated if FDev were a little less opaque about how the BGS and Powerplay works. It took me a LONG time to figure it out even slightly, and I'm still learning.

For example: If you're an explo-boat, and I spent a lot of time exploring and still like to do it, and you come back to sell your data and get your tags, you're probably not aware (if you're a new player or even one with a long time under his/her belt) that where you sell it matters. Let's say that I'm a pilot supporting a minor faction and you're coasting in to sell half a billion credits worth of explo-data to a station controlled by a faction opposed to mine. That's going to hurt my faction big time. So I blow you out of the sky to keep that from happening (actually, I don't, I'll warn you first and THEN blow you out of the sky if you fail to comply and I can do it), but it's not personal.

But if you, the innocent explorer just coming back with your data, have no way of knowing what the consequences of your actions might be because the game has failed to adequately inform you, it will look like I'm just some sort of sociopath who gets his jollies from blowing you up.

That's not your fault. It's not mine either.

I would never, have never, touched anybody in space without a good reason to do so, but if the game does a poor job of explaining what the reasons might be, we end up with this mess where everybody is shouting at each other and nobody's learning anything.

I'd like that addressed.

Thanks for being at my TED talk.

Exactly how would you know someone was coming in with data to sell? And why bother with them given that supporting minor factions has no real impact on the game? Seems pretty weak justification for ganking. Especially considering that at any one time there are probably a dozen people doing something that will hurt your faction. Better shoot down that ship bringing in medicine too.

 

[MishaTX]

Exactly how would you know someone was coming in with data to sell?

It's not really that hard to do. You run a standard scan on an Asp or a Diamondback, find that they have no defenses whatsoever. They're really not hard to spot. Or you can ask. I've been known to do that. We have comms in game. I know that some people choose to ignore it, but that's hardly my fault, is it?

And why bother with them given that supporting minor factions has no real impact on the game? Seems pretty weak justification for ganking.

It has a real impact on MY game. Why is my game less important? I'd like to know. If I've spent weeks trying to maintain control of a system, how's that less important than his desire to unload right NAOW? I don't mind if the explorer unloads his data anywhere else, I'll even offer a wing if he wants it.

Especially considering that at any one time there are probably a dozen people doing something that will hurt your faction. Better shoot down that ship bringing in medicine too.

Oh, so because somebody else might be doing something else, I should utterly ignore everything? I can't be everywhere at once, can you?

 

[MishaTX]

Oh, and if you're complaining that the comms system is cumbersome, I'm right there with you. Having to fiddle around with the 20th century nonsense that we're still saddled with is silly. I always keep my voice comms to auto-accept, but I've yet to talk to anybody except in that ancient typing interface.

 

[SouthernGorilla]

It's not really that hard to do. You run a standard scan on an Asp or a Diamondback, find that they have no defenses whatsoever. They're really not hard to spot. Or you can ask. I've been known to do that. We have comms in game. I know that some people choose to ignore it, but that's hardly my fault, is it?

It has a real impact on MY game. Why is my game less important? I'd like to know. If I've spent weeks trying to maintain control of a system, how's that less important than his desire to unload right NAOW? I don't mind if the explorer unloads his data anywhere else, I'll even offer a wing if he wants it.

Oh, so because somebody else might be doing something else, I should utterly ignore everything? I can't be everywhere at once, can you?

That's kinda the point I'm making. You have to go looking for someone to kill. It's not like you just stumble across them. You go out with the intent to club seals.

No, it really doesn't make a difference to your game. One player can't keep a faction in power unless they're in a very isolated area. If I came in and started running missions for another faction yours would lose control eventually because you aren't doing anything to actually bolster them.

 

[Dragsham]

Vr comms within elite is crap. I can't type with it on. Touch type no. Wish l could.
Open only for me. Some 3000 hours or so. Lots of encounters. The galaxy is huge.
I'm not a ganker so l dont actively look for pvp. But if l find a cmdr who is wanted? Mmmm. Cos I can't type l just check his details on my left panel and drag out of warp if fitted or just be on My way.
Now if its pp or bgs related then yeah...camp at their prime asset or just work their system collecting mats and blowing stuff up. I'm happy to fight pvpers till I high wake cos shields fail and or hull.
I've not encountered any decent pvpers. Not even in deciat cetp once when l was a noob and that taught me to not wanna rebuy screen.
As a in my head roleplayer it's in character for anything to happen. Solo just lacks that vibe.
And l thrive with risk. Better ships better piloting skills

 

[Sylow]

Hmm. I mostly play solo. I more than once tried with friends, but there are just too many barriers:

• Technical problems, instances, etc. Was bad till the year or bugfixing, then was acceptable (never really good, but mostly reliable), till Odyssey landed. The two hours or so i tried Odyssey with friends, it was terrible. (There were some fixes since then. But the damage is done. There won't be another try for many months to come. If ever. [Sarcasm] Awesome job, FD management. That's hard to beat! [/sarcasm] )
• Convenience. You ever tried to travel in a wing? With some people in low tier ships of varying upgrade level? The one who plans the route would have to be the one in the ship with lowest jump range. Which usually also is the one with the least experience in the game. So somebody who really doesn't want to have all the burden of responsibility dumped on him. Then try to actually jump together... only when the first one jumped, the rest of the wing starts charging the FSD. Then you might be too far apart in the destination system to actually jump together, so you'd first have to form up again, so you can jump. And even if everything is fine, you have to organize that all are there (also the one who had a 30 seconds hyperspace screen for whatever reason) before you initiate the next jump. It's cumbersome.
• Logistical overhead. Some of my friends play causually. They sometimes just contact me like "wife and kids are off at the moment, so i now have an hour or two of gaming time at hand". Which is perfectly fine for most games. But for ED, if you then find that you'll first have to travel for 30 minutes to meet, so you can start doing things together, we rather switch to another game, where we can start playing together right away.
• Game balance. I am leagues ahead of my friends. Not only because of skill. (I am an average at best pilot. Which still puts me far above and beyond any new player. ) But mostly due to equipment and the long and hard climb of Engineers. None of my friends has more than two or three engineers unlocked, several are at zero. And then seeing my ships was frustrating for them. Understandably.
• MultiCrew would have been a fix for that. Among my friends, we found it stable enough. It eliminates all the logistical overhead, meeting up, traveling together, etc... you go telepresence and are ready to go. And thanks to then simply using my ship and its fighters, even the steep hill of engineering does not matter any more. But then, in the end, we get the rewards. And with me being elite rank, they get basically nothing.

We effectively have a system in place, which punishes new players for being new players. I could not imagine a more clear way of telling them to go away and play something else.

And on the question about PvP, my answer is:

• More than 10 kills (and also way more than 10 PvP deaths) before the 2.1 patch. Duelling was fun.
• Zero kills (and also zero PvP deaths) after the 2.1 patch.