Info on Thermal Conduit effect.

[CMDR Alswulf]

I will say it directly - SPEAR has interest TC to be nerfed as only a couple of you use PAs and all of your "enemies" fly with them. But fine let's be civil and speak numbers - according to Coriolis this is the sustained dps when WEP are not empty against a 5 booster prismatic FDL with 4 pips in shields:

• meta fdl with 3 PAs with TC -> 40.4 (thermal 7, kinetic 5, 28 absolute) and two rails 17.2 (thermal 13, kinetic 5) => combined thermal 20, kinetic 10, 28 absolute, TOTAL 58 damage per second to shields;
• gimballed multies FDL (all overcharged, huge and 2 medium incendiery, one med emissive, one corrosive) => combined thermal 17, kinetic 8, TOTAL 24.4 damage per second to shields;
• mamba with long range fixed beam and gimballed frags (all overcharged, large incendiery, smalls corrosive and drag) => combined thermal 37, kinetic 7, TOTAL 43.7 damage per second to shields;

So meta FDL needed to sustain heat levels, full faOff proficiency, boost timing, pre-turns, pips management and no drifting has currently 32.7% better dps on paper. In a real fight the difference of damage output might be even less. The skill needed to fly such a mamba is just joust, click 3 times to shoot the frags, turn point and click to shoot the beam, repeat. Looking at those numbers I actually thing that TC is underpowered OR frags are overpowered XD Without it the sustained dps between the two is pretty much even. The difference with the gimballed multi-cannons looks good.

I had interested into TC fix even before I joined SPEAR mate. State of this experimental forced me to stop using pa cause non-tc aren't that viable against tc pa. I do enjoy them as well as fixed MCs, sometimes use both in fights or in places where TC is restricted like latest RoA hulltank tournament. Not sure if your boasting or mocking other guys regarding skill is really necessary here - pa was (and is) decent weapon even without tc which requires experience to use it effectively, no one here denies it.
Regarding numbers you also have to keep in mind:
- gimballed multis can be countered by chaff/dispersal/tlb, it has jitter which reduce it's effectiveness and requires still (not much but still) staying somehow on target
- same goes for frags, might not that effective (I also not an appreciator of this wep) where 1-2 volleys also can be shot into the void
But non of that can deal such decent alpha damage by single shot with such penetration+resistance ignoring.
With old TC game was different: you could face in organic something else except 3pa2rail FDL (or 4+1 and 5or6 booster) and receive joy/challenge. The last ofc is much more complex topic where current TC is only a part of the picture

 

[Pigletslastand]

IMO the damage should scale with the thermal load of the firing ship

I can get onboard with that.

As I mentioned before though, any changes to it have to be very fine as the Rail Meta is only just behind and that will just become the new norm if it's nerfed too much and quite frankly i prefer the Plasmas as it gives a chance to evade. Rails really don't.

 

[TEBORI]

I can get onboard with that.

As I mentioned before though, any changes to it have to be very fine as the Rail Meta is only just behind and that will just become the new norm if it's nerfed too much and quite frankly i prefer the Plasmas as it gives a chance to evade. Rails really don't.

rails do not that amount of a damage and need a brutal high tot
i need about 100 rail volleys of a 4 rail fdl with a hitrate about 80% to take down a 6 booster fdl monster. as i said in other posts in this thread. the range control of srb rails (you have to keep the target closer then 1.2 km and closer as 1 km to get the full damage) is extremely difficult and even can be hard countered with jousting.
so i dont really see a rail meta coming. i just see the area coming back before TC was changed. the meta fdl had 3 effic pas and 1 srb(oc) and still was very strong and strong enough.

 

[Pigletslastand]

rails do not that amount of a damage and need a brutal high tot
i need about 100 rail volleys of a 4 rail fdl with a hitrate about 80% to take down a 6 booster fdl monster. as i said in other posts in this thread. the range control of srb rails (you have to keep the target closer then 1.2 km and closer as 1 km to get the full damage) is extremely difficult and even can be hard countered with jousting.
so i dont really see a rail meta coming. i just see the area coming back before TC was changed. the meta fdl had 3 effic pas and 1 srb(oc) and still was very strong and strong enough.

Most people worth their salt don't fly 6 boosters.

 

[TEBORI]

Most people worth their salt don't fly 6 boosters.

you would be surpised how often we have to face this ships as law enforcers and of course also from people who say no i never fly 6 booster.

 

[Pigletslastand]

That's more a shield meta discussion and not really what this post is about. If the TC PA build was so overpowered you'd be using it too instead of your rails. That proves they are not far off each other in terms of damage and usability. PAs are difficult to use and can provide more opportunity to evade. They are by no means easy to master. As someone mentioned earlier, i see no problem with arguably the highest skill weapons doing the most damage.

Like I've reiterated many times though, we have a common consensus that heat should not be applied before firing and also that a sliding scale would perhaps be fairer. Where we differ is the amounts but it's ok to have different opinions.

 

[Northpin]

If the TC PA build was so overpowered you'd be using it too instead of your rails.

Something can be stupidly overpowered and/or broken and still not used by everyone else.
So that's not an argument in the favor of TC-PA

 

[Pigletslastand]

Something can be stupidly overpowered and/or broken and still not used by everyone else.
So that's not an argument in the favor of TC-PA

I disagree, everything in the PvP sphere that is deemed the most powerful becomes the mosed used which is the Meta.

And as I've commented before the TC PA is not stupidly overpowered, it's only a hair more effective than other builds.

 

[Northpin]

I disagree, everything in the PvP sphere that is deemed the most powerful becomes the mosed used which is the Meta.

Except the long list of stuff banned by the pvp-ers?
Which actually shows how flawed the pvp is in ED?

Spoiler

I remember in DAoC we had only 2 rules in PVP:

• dont add (if there is an ongoing 1-on-1 or a fullgroup-vs-fullgroup, it was deemed dishonorable to add on those fight and ruin the fun for the people involved)
• dont zerg (that was also a corollary of the above and was valid either for bunch of soloers/duos or for groups ganking on soloers)

And not a single rule saying you cant use that spell, that armor, that axe or that uber rare drop necklace.

Ofcourse the above rules were not expected to stand in raids or sieges. Everything was game in such scenarios

 

[Pigletslastand]

What long list?

Except the long list of stuff banned by the pvp-ers?
Which actually shows how flawed the pvp is in ED?

In general in Open there is only 2 - don't combat log which is against the EULA of Elite anyway and don't use fighters because they are so laggy it messes up the instance and makes it unplayable if an NPC is the pilot. (that's frontiers fault and yes it's still broken)

In honourable combat only really 2 - no healies and no premiums (but everyone is free to fly what they wish, you'll just get looked down on it if you do)
In private tournaments - People can impose whatever rules they wish, for instance we had a FAS only fight night recently and it was great fun, but in general you will find it will just be the same as above, no healies no premiums.

I'm interested though because I'm on xbox and PC and I've never encountered you at any of our PvP tournaments events or in open.. do you PvP? To comment on the meta it would really help if used it regularly to impart what is a very subtle change that's needed.

 

[castelman]

To sum up so far; leaving all the name calling out

1) TC right now applies at a temperature too low and applies the full effect.
2) Heat damage is also broken defeating the drawback of TC that is to counter the benefit you gain from using it.

Solutions to this that have been suggested are
1) change how TC is applied, with the main suggestion being that it starts at >100% instead of <100% as it is now
2) heat damage be fixed such that damage for overheating is applied for running at high temperatures for long times.

Also my understanding by reading this thread is that correcting the heat issue would also fix other problematic weapons like srb rails that rely on high damage with low heat damage as a drawback.

perhaps if fdev will tweak heat damage they should implement a change that will target the modules creating the overheat to make things more fair. This would target the heat damage the subsystem overheating the ship instead of the cargo hatch. This would offer a drawback to high heat damage weapons as well as bank tank shield ships as their shield subsystems would take the targeted heat damage while they spam banks.

 

[Pigletslastand]

To sum up so far; leaving all the name calling out

1) TC right now applies at a temperature too low and applies the full effect.
2) Heat damage is also broken defeating the drawback of TC that is to counter the benefit you gain from using it.

Solutions to this that have been suggested are
1) change how TC is applied, with the main suggestion being that it starts at >100% instead of <100% as it is now
2) heat damage be fixed such that damage for overheating is applied for running at high temperatures for long times.

Also my understanding by reading this thread is that correcting the heat issue would also fix other problematic weapons like srb rails that rely on high damage with low heat damage as a drawback.

Spot on I'd say^^

 

[TEBORI]

If the TC PA build was so overpowered you'd be using it too instead of your rails.

nope the reason why we prefer the rails is a different one.
spear often operates in task forces of 6 or more ships.
so many rail guns coordinated do a massive amount of damage and totally neglect the evasion skills of the assassins.

we are law enforcers we want them out of compromiced area as quick as possible and this can be faster achieved with rail guns if you have enough of them compared to anything what could be done with PAs no matter what level of skill.

 

[Pigletslastand]

nope the reason why we prefer the rails is a different one.
spear often operates in task forces of 6 or more ships.
so many rail guns coordinated do a massive amount of damage and totally neglect the evasion skills of the assassins.

we are law enforcers we want them out of compromiced area as quick as possible and this can be faster achieved with rail guns if you have enough of them compared to anything what could be done with PAs no matter what level of skill.

So what you're saying is that Rails are more powerful in a wing than PAs.

Earlier you argued that wings of TC users were too powerful and you used that as an argument to say they should be nerfed. Sounds like you'd really rather have rails nerfed if they are more overpowered in a wing!

 

[TEBORI]

So what you're saying is that Rails are more powerful in a wing than PAs.

Earlier you argued that wings of TC users were too powerful and you used that as an argument to say they should be nerfed. Sounds like you'd really rather have rails nerfed if they are more overpowered in a wing!

nope it highly depends on the opponent.
if gankers are attacking sittung ducks which rather move at all then TC is brutal but if the target is evading (and of course our opponents do) then rails are more effective and have a lower tth (time to highwake)
depends a lot tho how many rails are in total in the fleet

 

[CMDR Alswulf]

What long list?


In general in Open there is only 2 - don't combat log which is against the EULA of Elite anyway and don't use fighters because they are so laggy it messes up the instance and makes it unplayable if an NPC is the pilot. (that's frontiers fault and yes it's still broken)

In honourable combat only really 2 - no healies and no premiums (but everyone is free to fly what they wish, you'll just get looked down on it if you do)
In private tournaments - People can impose whatever rules they wish, for instance we had a FAS only fight night recently and it was great fun, but in general you will find it will just be the same as above, no healies no premiums.

I'm interested though because I'm on xbox and PC and I've never encountered you at any of our PvP tournaments events or in open.. do you PvP? To comment on the meta it would really help if used it regularly to impart what is a very subtle change that's needed.

and you noted the exact reason why I would like TC changed back to previous level: the variety. Current TC heavily restricts ship choice like denies close range hulltanks in general: not sure but guy might uploaded a fight where he did won my ~4.4k FAS in 3 passes TigerPunchTURK spared me to not do such speedrun and we had decent duel.
Don't mind to meet and fight any build: full tc or seeker ones, gimbal mc or frags cause this is a feature of organic gameplay in my eyes. If someone wanna prove his skills - tournaments are appropriate place for it.
But during last tc-years it's rare to see something except tc fdl cause any who would like to try anything different in most cases gonna be in disadvantage

 

[Pigletslastand]

nope it highly depends on the opponent.
if gankers are attacking sittung ducks which rather move at all then TC is brutal but if the target is evading (and of course our opponents do) then rails are more effective and have a lower tth (time to highwake)

If gankers attack a sitting duck they could do so with a frag ramming mamba and the poor guy would be dead either way. They won't be saved by nerfing TC not ever.

 

[TEBORI]

If gankers attack a sitting duck they could do so with a frag ramming mamba and the poor guy would be dead either way. They won't be saved by nerfing TC not ever.

here we go.
that is why we suggested to overwork TC not cause of specific attacks but give a more equal base for the whole pvp field especially 1v1 or small wing fights

but as you said we have consensus more or less.
so i am personally curious what the devs will do in the upcoming time

 

[Pigletslastand]

But during last tc-years it's rare to see something except tc fdl cause any who would like to try anything different in most cases gonna be in disadvantage

yup this is why many in the PvP community would welcome a change too.. variety would be nice but there's a whole other discussion about how badly hulltanks were screwed over, nightvision, emmissive effect lasting too long, shield stacking being too high etc. etc. and not really the thrust of this post..

But we can all agree that TC could be tweaked like we have said many times above.

 

[Pigletslastand]

Also It's nice Tebori that we can communicate and discuss a sensitive subject agreeably no matter what side of the divide we are personally on. it's good when we can achieve consensus and it not devolve into name calling so I appreciate it when we can get along even if we see things differently or have different aims