Anarchy Factions / Systems - Influence Loss Reports

Deleted member 115407

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I was in a Corporate system yesterday, but the settlement was owned by an Anarchy faction. I was there to kill someone. I did not get a bounty when I shot them.

So only the settlement gov't matters in this case. Just to clarify for anyone reading this thread :)
Yes Codger. That is the controversy being discussed.
 
The point is not that the particular player is ignorant of how basic faction jurisdictions work.* The point is that because of terrible game design, "Anarchy" factions are being driven to the brink of extinction. This player clearly states that he has been repeatedly farming an Anarchy settlement for days (at least 30 times in his own words) with zero consequences for him, and all of the consequences for the owning faction.

(* Although one would think that anyone flying a signature banner that proudly proclaims "Playing the Environment" would.... how should I put it.... "know stuff" about the environment in which they are playing. But I'll let that go.)
Oh, yes. They did some stuff to mitigate anarchy impact, but I still see at least two problems:

1. Space-wise, massacre missions still being only against anarchies, and the illegal version "spec ops" isn't very easy to find/stack or even more profitable as a criminal thing should be to offset the law consequences. This put anarchies in a passive downward direction since the beginning.
2. Odyssey material loops being settlement clears, the meta thing is to go against anarchy settlements.
 
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Oh, yes. They did some stuff to mitigate anarchy impact, but I still see at least two problems:

1. Space-wise, massacre missions still being only against anarchies, and the illegal version "spec ops" isn't very easy to find/stack or even more profitable as a criminal thing should be to offset the law consequences. This put anarchies in a passive downward direction since the beginning.
2. Odyssey material loops being settlement clears, the meta thing is to go against anarchy settlements.
I mentioned it before, but even before Odyssey dropped, the most stable places to set up an anarchy were systems >10ly away from any other populated system as it meant they couldn't be targeted by massacre missions, and this became really apparent back in December when bounty hunting and massacre missions got a buff to the point where stacking massacres could compete with mining in terms of cr/hr.

Another system that I flipped to anarchy ages ago as it was in striking range of the hyades sector double hotspot and had the right economies for NPC LTD piracy is still anarchy, and pretty stable even after Odyssey. It also has no landable bodies. What a coincidence.

Might screw around and go back to Jotun. That one was anarchist for ages after I flipped it and left last time. No bounty hunting sites, all the odyssey settlements appear to be owned by non-anarchists, and the permit lock keeps ship missions from targeting the system. It's one of the few systems where an anarchy would be on relatively even footing.
 
2. Odyssey material loops being settlement clears, the meta thing is to go against anarchy settlements.
Here to say, that's not actually true though. Use 3rd party sites to find a system with multiple factions in states like Bust or Infra Failure, it's actually not hard to stack up reactivate missions, which I'd argue for the typical player is going to be faster than taking the time to go through and wipe out the settlement.
 
Here to say, that's not actually true though. Use 3rd party sites to find a system with multiple factions in states like Bust or Infra Failure, it's actually not hard to stack up reactivate missions, which I'd argue for the typical player is going to be faster than taking the time to go through and wipe out the settlement.
the problem there is that your average player isn't on third party sites or particularly does what the actual best thing is, they just google up the first guide that pops up and it's easier to find an anarchy than it is to find a bust or infrastructure failure, especially since the in-game filters only tell you about controlling factions and it's usually not controlling factions that experience negative states

hence all the "I WENT TO ANARCHY SYSTEM AND GOT BOUNTY AND NOTORIETY????!? EXMPLAIN?!?!?!!?!?!?!?" posts
 
the problem there is that your average player isn't on third party sites or particularly does what the actual best thing is, they just google up the first guide that pops up and it's easier to find an anarchy than it is to find a bust or infrastructure failure, especially since the in-game filters only tell you about controlling factions and it's usually not controlling factions that experience negative states

hence all the "I WENT TO ANARCHY SYSTEM AND GOT BOUNTY AND NOTORIETY????!? EXMPLAIN?!?!?!!?!?!?!?" posts
Yeah need to convince D2EA or someone to make a big "NEW META??? LOOT EMPTY BASES!" walkthrough video.
 
Yeah need to convince D2EA or someone to make a big "NEW META??? LOOT EMPTY BASES!" walkthrough video.
Unfortunately it does often boil down to that. What the influencers say, and they may go to whatever path requires the least thinking of your own. But there is some logic in going to settlements with lots of data ports, and such information isn't easily found.
 

Deleted member 115407

D
I'm uh Elite PvEr an I don't unerstan how pVe works in this gAme!

Though, to be fair, neither does the game designer.
 
Ahoy, space pirates!

We've received reports of the recent Odyssey update negatively affecting influence for anarchy factions and systems in the BGS. If your minor faction/system of choice has been affect, could you please reply to this thread with the following details:

  • The name of the faction
  • The name of the system
  • What you were trying to do vs what actually happened
  • Approximate dates you attempted the action

Make sure your reports concern incidents that occurred since 28 May. Please do not post replies to other comments, or post anything off-topic lest your comment be removed. We would like to keep this thread clean and efficient for feedback.

Your feedback will be immensely helpful in identifying and resolving this issue.

Yarr and O7

Edit: we ask for dates so that we can isolate and examine specific events. We understand that some issues are "always on" but please give specific instances where possible.
Okay, so, I specifically tested this one just to see what would happen.

  • Hip 54530 Gold Society
  • Hip 54530
  • Hip 54530, being a permit-locked system, cannot be targeted by incoming missions and the only levers that exist and are accessible to Horizons players are the basic station services available at the ports as mission boards on all ports (both orbital and surface) have been blank ever since the CG that offered the first permits - leaving trade, cartographics, bounties, etc. I found that the mission boards at odyssey-owned settlements do work (presumably because they were automatically populated well after the CG in which the main station boards were turned off) and set about using them to put the anarchists in charge of the system, as well as stripping Core Enterprises of all their settlements - now, all Odyssey surface assets are either in the hands of the Gold Society or one of the two dictatorships in the system, with the vast majority (plus the main station and the system itself) being anarchy. I then left to see if it would remain stable, and over the last few days the influence has been dropping sharply - the corresponding rise of the other factions' influence has been entirely proportional to their previous influence, suggesting that no or few positive actions (such as KWS bounty hunting, trade, cartographics, etc) have been taken in their favour and the swing is almost entirely due to negative influence affecting Gold Society.
  • I was active from late august, with the initial war for control in mid-september and a second war that removed the remainder of Core Enterprises surface settlements concluding on the 8th of October. I took limited actions from that point onwards, leaving the system alone to see if it would remain stable against passive traffic. The ticks on the 17th, 18th and 19th have all shown sharp declines in Gold Society's influence with no apparent corresponding deliberate rise in any one of the other factions.
I can't really rule out deliberate, targeted action by another player group on this one (and fair play to them if it is) but considering that the permit lock rules out incoming missions it might make things easier to see if there's anything imbalanced or unusual about the actions that are being taken.
 
This does need sorting out. My feeling is some kind of mechanic where there are a set minumum number of Anarchy controlled stations, set so that if control gets farmed out of existence in one system, another system randomly revolts, against corruption or something, outside the usual BGS. That might mean players supporting the anarchy faction needing some way of knowing where their new control station is but it could introduce a state where powerful factions find themselves being infiltrated from within. At least this might introduce a sort of recycling, where anarchy factions that 'fall off one end' are circulated back into the game. My 2c.
 
This does need sorting out. My feeling is some kind of mechanic where there are a set minumum number of Anarchy controlled stations, set so that if control gets farmed out of existence in one system, another system randomly revolts, against corruption or something, outside the usual BGS. That might mean players supporting the anarchy faction needing some way of knowing where their new control station is but it could introduce a state where powerful factions find themselves being infiltrated from within. At least this might introduce a sort of recycling, where anarchy factions that 'fall off one end' are circulated back into the game. My 2c.

While I see what you're going for, solutions that try to change anarchy factions into one big community who just roll with the punches, or in another example I saw yesterday "just move all anarchies to the edge of the bubble, it makes more sense anyway" - these kinds of god-handy alternatives aren't going to fly with Anarchy PMFs. In isolation, if we were discussing an upcoming game that people haven't been playing already for 7 - 8 years maybe that'd work but we've been growing our modest empires within a specific ruleset since 2015 along with everyone else, so Frontier moving our faction to some RNG location or removing our agency over it is not the solution we're looking for. We'd sooner have our faction government changed to something else, or probably sooner just quit doing the BGS altogether.

I sympathise with the devs in a way, you can't play fast and loose with a chess game that players have been invested in for this many years and that might be frustrating. Having to step on eggshells with BGS changes might be limiting if you come up with some cool new ideas, but in this instance it's them having dropped the ball in balancing and been too slow rectifying it. Anarchies have somewhat different mechanics but the same would be true for every group out there - if the victims of the imbalance were Feudal factions and people suggested "lol just change Feudal factions to make them work like RNG Crusader Kings NPCs" or something, everyone who has hitherto worked on one of these factions would be very annoyed - as I'm sure you'll appreciate.

It's easy enough for outsiders to say "I always thought anarchies should've worked thusly..." or "seems like the most obvious solution is to move them all to the seagull nebula" or something, but such a change would be worse in our eyes than what's currently happening.
 
While I see what you're going for, solutions that try to change anarchy factions into one big community who just roll with the punches, or in another example I saw yesterday "just move all anarchies to the edge of the bubble, it makes more sense anyway" - these kinds of god-handy alternatives aren't going to fly with Anarchy PMFs. In isolation, if we were discussing an upcoming game that people haven't been playing already for 7 - 8 years maybe that'd work but we've been growing our modest empires within a specific ruleset since 2015 along with everyone else, so Frontier moving our faction to some RNG location or removing our agency over it is not the solution we're looking for. We'd sooner have our faction government changed to something else, or probably sooner just quit doing the BGS altogether.

I sympathise with the devs in a way, you can't play fast and loose with a chess game that players have been invested in for this many years and that might be frustrating. Having to step on eggshells with BGS changes might be limiting if you come up with some cool new ideas, but in this instance it's them having dropped the ball in balancing and been too slow rectifying it. Anarchies have somewhat different mechanics but the same would be true for every group out there - if the victims of the imbalance were Feudal factions and people suggested "lol just change Feudal factions to make them work like RNG Crusader Kings NPCs" or something, everyone who has hitherto worked on one of these factions would be very annoyed - as I'm sure you'll appreciate.

It's easy enough for outsiders to say "I always thought anarchies should've worked thusly..." or "seems like the most obvious solution is to move them all to the seagull nebula" or something, but such a change would be worse in our eyes than what's currently happening.
yeah. Personally if I were to do something like that it'd be something that applied to all factions and I'd have baked it in from the start - something like a passive buff to influence actions (and nerf to negative ones) that applies if there are no systems of that government type nearby, possibly scaling with range to the nearest one. That way, maintaining vast swathes of, say, corporate systems and nothing but corporate systems (regardless of whether it's the same faction or several different ones) would be less viable, and it'd cause other government types to eventually bubble up in spots here and there.

But that'd still only mitigate the effect, it wouldn't change the cause.

Another possible tweak would be to have the 25% cut taken by interstellar factors work in the anarchy faction's favour as they're basically making credits off of it. Sure you'd have to bounty hunt four times as much for the same effect as a lawful faction, but maybe out-of-system bounties would help balance that. Having them make gains from using their services to clear bounties would be something that allowed them to directly benefit from players committing crimes against other factions, which is very flavourful and as far as I'm aware, unique outside of the mission board.

Fixing black markets so selling your stolen gear through them would be a massive step.

Buffing the payout of illegal missions (and activities in general) and adjusting C&P to be less of a pain in the long-term might encourage players to do those things more, which would lead to a steering of player behaviour through shifting incentives.

In odyssey in particular, making the criminal factions harder to raid for goods and data might also shift things - allowing players to choose whether they go at them in the way that gets them some bounties from the lawful factions, or the way that's "legal" but results in a much tougher fight. Tougher guards, twitchier hostility (treating the profile scanner as a weapon regardless of whether it's in cloning mode or not - they don't like bounty hunters) and so on. Faster reputation drops for even non-murder kills - coupled with a mechanic by which a faction hostile to you will occasionally drop off an assassin at a settlement while you're doing some other mission, so even players that want to stay legal have to worry about people coming after them if they go around killing people just because they can. Hell, one of the concourse mission givers even has an assassination mission flavour text where they're sending you to kill someone specifically for stealing a power regulator off them and trying to pass it off on the black market. So... stealing power regulators is a thing people will send hitmen after you for. Interesting.

Either way, shifting mechanics is one thing, but it's shifting player incentives to trigger those mechanics that causes the really tricky stuff.
 
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Anarchies have somewhat different mechanics but the same would be true for every group out there

I think that's the difference, the different mechanic. Players are unnaturally attracted to Anarchy systems, even if they have no interest whatsoever in the BGS, by some of the missions in Odyssey. I think they're good missions, especially for the Odyssey beginner but that has tipped the chess game already.

So even if my idea is not the right one, I don't think it's unreasonable to find some method to rebalance .. even as simple as points for interdictions made on traders, tons removed by hatch breakers, value of goods stolen ..

There is no upkeep available from bounties in Anarchy systems but until now they were just about manageable outside of a concerted attack. I'm not someone who's attached to one but the different mechanic of Anarchy has made them COMPLETELY unsustainable now they get this extra traffic .. and that's not really fair either.
 
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Players are unnaturally attracted to Anarchy systems, even if they have no interest whatsoever in the BGS, by some of the missions in Odyssey. I think they're good missions, especially for the Odyssey beginner but that has tipped the chess game already.

Changing the NPCs you fight on said missions to generic pirates rather than faction members, as has already been done on many of these mission types, would solve this particular part of the problem. Changing how punitive C&P is and how onerous collecting materials from settlements is would help the rest. There's no need to be fatalistic about anarchies post-Odyssey, all the mechanics that currently exist could continue to exist even with minor, prudent changes. The thing I'm being critical of is the idea that we need to abandon our factions and accept the new world order - Fdev just need to act fast - even if it's just switching off the negative influence from settlement ownership while they come up with more balanced numbers.
 
While I see what you're going for, solutions that try to change anarchy factions into one big community who just roll with the punches, or in another example I saw yesterday "just move all anarchies to the edge of the bubble, it makes more sense anyway" - these kinds of god-handy alternatives aren't going to fly with Anarchy PMFs. In isolation, if we were discussing an upcoming game that people haven't been playing already for 7 - 8 years maybe that'd work but we've been growing our modest empires within a specific ruleset since 2015 along with everyone else, so Frontier moving our faction to some RNG location or removing our agency over it is not the solution we're looking for. We'd sooner have our faction government changed to something else, or probably sooner just quit doing the BGS altogether.

I sympathise with the devs in a way, you can't play fast and loose with a chess game that players have been invested in for this many years and that might be frustrating. Having to step on eggshells with BGS changes might be limiting if you come up with some cool new ideas, but in this instance it's them having dropped the ball in balancing and been too slow rectifying it. Anarchies have somewhat different mechanics but the same would be true for every group out there - if the victims of the imbalance were Feudal factions and people suggested "lol just change Feudal factions to make them work like RNG Crusader Kings NPCs" or something, everyone who has hitherto worked on one of these factions would be very annoyed - as I'm sure you'll appreciate.

It's easy enough for outsiders to say "I always thought anarchies should've worked thusly..." or "seems like the most obvious solution is to move them all to the seagull nebula" or something, but such a change would be worse in our eyes than what's currently happening.
Part of the problem is that they don't function like other factions at all. Or more correctly perhaps, all other faction governments function identically and homogenously.

In the case of Anarchies
  • Lawless state, while canon, strips away the consequence of otherwise reckless harmful activities. In fact, since most Anarchy ships have bounties, it's expressly incentivised.
  • Mission boards are almost entirely unique (and severely unrewarding) compared to lawful faction mission boards.

Meanwhile, the only distinguishing factor between other lawful factions is:
  • Some of their mission flavours are different, though functionally identical; and
  • Differences between who they go to elections with, vs who they go to war with.

Primarily, lawful factions target anarchy with missions, while anarchy target any lawful.

Why isn't it something like:
  • Anarchy - Target everyone, prioritise corporate targets
  • Authoritarians - Target other Authoritarian, Social and Anarchy governments, prioritise targeting social, neutral to Corporate
  • Social - Target Anarchy and Authoritarian, friendly to social and corporate
  • Corporate - Neutral to all, target anarchy

... where:
Target = Missions with negative effects will prioritise these factions, and never allow positive effects
Neutral = will generate a mix of missions with positive and negative effects for those targets
Friendly = Will generate only missions with positive effects

And you could go further and say that, if a faction belongs to a superpower, other factions which are targets belonging to other superpowers (but not independents) will also be prioritised?

Another option: issue criminal marks for killing security/military vessels, which can be used for black market purchases/other such things which could be invented.

Lastly... when I had my PMF inserted as an Imperial Dictatorship, I expected more combat missions, targeting the Federation specifically, weapons shipments etc.. Instead I got an experience which was non-distinct from any other faction, regardless of underlying type. Making stronger preferences (like how anarchies work) for particular mission sets for different government types would go a long way too.

(If it is doing this sort of thing, unbeknownst to me, it's not doing a very good job of it)

EDIT: Lastly, an option is to make Anarchy factions function just like any other, and leave all missions the target of generic pirates... although that leans too hard into the "Elite best friends" again as negative states are already too hard to achieve compared to positive ones, and this just makes them even harder to achieve.
 

All of what you're saying is true, and I am cognisant of the fact that the system has been biased against Anarchies since the beginning. We would be really thrilled to see things become more asymmetrical-but-balanced instead of just asymmetrical period. I would personally bloomin' love it if I could open an anarchy mission board and not groan in despair at how tedious most of our jobs are, but this would probably take something as large scale as a full piracy/criminality revamp, on the same scale as the nu-mining for example.

One thing I would like to stress is that while these biases are not new, things were manageable before. Long term it'd sure be great if Frontier dedicated a patch to a comprehensive criminality and BGS mission distribution pass... but most of us just want them to do something right now to stop the bleeding, even if it's as crude and blunt as disabling settlement INF levers, turning off civil unrest or whatever. We're doing OK now because a) we're a big, experienced faction with a few tricks up our sleeves and b) player numbers are pretty low by all accounts so random traffic isn't hitting as hard, but it's tragic for the smaller groups who have had fewer shoulders to share the weight.


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Part of the problem is that they don't function like other factions at all. Or more correctly perhaps, all other faction governments function identically and homogenously.

Also some time ago someone asked the question "why do players want to support anarchies anyway", can't remember which thread it was in. This is honestly the Big Reason for lots of us; because they are different. That and removing law enforcement from a system is the single biggest change a faction can exert over the gameworld, I guess we are just vain.
 
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