Shooter Mechanics

I think EDO fps combat rubs many of us in the wrong way is because it's more "arcadey and gun-ho aproach alike the UT/Quake era" is the complete opposite approach of the somewhat realistic and thought out flight model.

There's a dissonance between game design choices that makes it look that they were made for 2 completely different games.
Indeed. I recall from a livestream before Odyssey dropped that someone mentioned they were aiming for the game to fall somewhere on a line between CoD and ARMA.

In practice, I've found it ends up somewhere on the imaginary axis with Doom Eternal and Halo Infinite, yet with a slower pace than either one of them.

Not necessarily a bad thing per se, just not what I was hoping for Elite. I was hoping for a game closer to ARMA but not too deep into the mill-sim stuff (i.e. slower paced yet tactical).

As for our previous interaction, no hard feelings CMDR. 07
I forgot the :p at the end of my jest there - must have slipped past my proofreading as I was running off to lunch. No hard feelings were intended :D

EDIT: also as for the video, with G2 gear i can net 8-12 million credits per high conflict zone without dying. Nothing like as swift as that guy though.
I was using a G5 C-44 with a Magazine Size mod and a G3 L-6 with Stowed Reloading; I would definitely cut through High CZs much faster if that L-6 was G5'd with a Magazine Size mod. I don't think enemy squads would last more than two seconds after dropping to the ground if I had one of those...
 

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No, of which you insist on defdining, without any source to refer to, just your own opinion (not that opinions are wrong, just individual, rather than universal)
I'm fairly sure you made that definition to start with, with what you said quoted below.
And the remainder will just get on and play, and have fun... Did you forget those?
This remainder is what we are talking about. At the start I didn't even anticipate that the remainder of people that actually enjoy the fps gameplay is anything substantial, but apparently it is. Still isn't an argument for why Odyssey is a good shooter.
Well, of their visitors, certainly.
Only large survey I could find. With over 9k Elite dangerous players in that survey, it's worthy information.
In your opinion?
That's just the convention across most FPS titles. CSGO, Valorant, Siege, COD, Battlefield. Even Arma and DayZ (Standalone). All of these games do not require full magazines to be emptied into a target in order for it to be killed. Most usually 3-4 body shots or a headshot or two. Some may say that these games are not in the same sci-fi genre as Elite therefore not comparable, but Battlefront 1&2 and Planetside both do a better job at reducing this issue with maybe 5-6 shots for a kill on average or a headshot or two.
 
CSGO, Valorant, Siege, COD, Battlefield. Even Arma and DayZ (Standalone).
About this aspect, that's true that OD goes more in the way of Overwatch, with shield and extra potent healing. But it's actually a very competitive choice, because you must be more decisive. If you don't kill / finish someone, you just wasted your resources.
 
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Have you even played? Bizarre.

Just over a minute since first proper contact (No medpacks used)
1.5-2 Laser magazines
2-2.5 Kinetic magazines
2 grenades
1 shot from pistol

No other shooter I have played has this level of bullet sponginess and this just isn't conventional for FPS games (I wonder why).

"Have you even played? Bizarre."
 
Battlefield

Source: https://youtu.be/rGpHEU-qNvU?t=114


Planetside both do a better job at reducing this issue with maybe 5-6 shots for a kill on average or a headshot or two.
Source: https://youtu.be/hwosoGhfYSQ?t=40

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3790mURq3Q


That's more or less the TTK I'm looking for in any sort of first-person tactical/infantry combat shooter where I'm supposed to be playing a vaguely normal human vs. other more or less normal humans, with rough parity of tech/gear.

Mech games, or even something like the Warhammer shooters where I'm playing some thousand year old eight-foot-tall transgenic freak Asartes in 500kg of pseudomagical armor fighting peons, giant aliens, or demons, different TTKs are more justifiable, but even these have limits. I stopped playing Hawken before the beta even ended because the TTKs had been inflated to a level I didn't find enjoyable. By and large, weapons are made to kill or disable things, when they can't do so in a reasonable amount of time, one starts to wonder why those weapons were even adopted.
 

Deleted member 182079

D
I picked mine up not long after EDO released, so was ecstatic, until I tried using it! It really is in need of a buff, it does have potential, but not in its current state.
I want to come back to this - I was thinking whether to get rid of my Audio Masked G2 Oppressor, or double down on it and engineer it a bit further. After noticing the significant improvement in recoil reduction after adding the Stability mod to my AR-50, I decided to G3 and add Stability to it.

I have to say, while it's not the most potent weapon I have, it's now the most fun, because that obnoxious recoil effect the weapon has in stock is much more manageable now. Clearing out settlements outside without causing a fuss and more importantly no weapon switching and constant reloading due to small mag size is quite nice, too. Wouldn't use it in a CZ though (or indeed PvP, which I don't think I'll ever properly get into in this game) but for a bit of mischief it's actually alright.

I just wish the engineering process wouldn't be as tedious - it took me hours upon hours of running missions non-stop throughout the week to upgrade and mod a small handful of gear, with data being the clear bottleneck as I can't trade it (and fewer spawn points where you can obtain them i.e. the data points, vs items generally lying around everywhere). I'd spend a lot more time experimenting with different combinations just like what I do with ships - but I guess FDev had to stretch this out as much as possible as the mod pool is actually quite basic/shallow all things considered, unlike for ships.
 
Honestly I enjoy the combat loop. I never got the bullet sponge thing as I generally ran high combat zones with nothing upgraded beyond 2 with no issue. The energy pistol could drop shields in 3-4 bursts and then the kinetic rifle killed them pretty quick.

After I started using level 3-4 weapons (still dying have a 5) it was even quicker. Using the Lazer rifle to wipe shields and the plasma pistol to 1 shot once they dropped, or two shots of the were far out.


Positioning, maneuvering, managing shields and power add a lot.

As a pure fps game it definitely isn't my first choice. But for what it is iv definitely dumped enough time just into conflict zones to make it worth it. If it was altered to run more like a standard fps well... I would just go play a better dedicated fps.

It's also one of the most enjoyable co-op pve experiences iv had organizing complementary load outs and managing targets.


Over all while it has its problems I feel a lot of them are over blown. Personally I enjoy the fps combat far more than the ship. I had been playing since launch and only ever made it to level 3 in the combat ranking. Odyssey pushed that just shy of elite. (Though I really wish it didn't effect the combat rank. Let alone rank combat faster than mercenary for some reason)
 
There is no reason the stealth mechanisms that work in the former could not work in the latter. Same with comparing to dedicated shooters.

Anyway, I've used Deus Ex as a comparison...multiple gameplay types and relatively open settings, as well as being more than twenty years old. It still does most of what EDO does better than EDO, and does all sorts of fun stuff EDO doesn't even attempt.



I don't feel the on foot stuff for EDO is even remotely authentic or plausible, given the setting. The damage done by on foot and ship based weapons are using the same scale, yet the ship based weapons are orders of magnitude less potent per unit of volume/mass. This makes zero sense and is exactly the opposite of what one would expect in a setting that has a cube-square law, and no setting without such a fundamental attribute can be anything short of magically surrealistic to the point of barely being comprehensible. There are things in EDO that would not fly in my AD&D Planescape game because they are so far fetched.

Projectile velocities are another example. Energy delivered by a kinetic projectile is directly related to it's mass and velocity, with velocity being the dominant factor because energy increases with the square of velocity, but only linearly with mass. Kinetic projectiles in EDO cannot be massive; the 24-36 round magazine for the Karma P-15 sidearm is very small and my CMDR can carry upwards of a thousand rounds of ammo with some weapon combinations. Even if these are extremely dense caseless projectiles, the velocity has to be relatively high to give them energy competitive with projectiles fired from weapons designed before Christ was born, let alone with the ship mounted weapons they actually out-damage in game. Yet, the projectile velocities are obviously extremely low. From what I'm being shown, I would not expect these projectiles to reliably puncture human skin, let alone inflict mortal injuries. There also doesn't seem to be any projectile drop, irrespective of gravity, which is something else I find very hard to ignore with projectiles slow enough to track visually.

The whole idea that switching weapons in combat, to deal with a single infantry foe, could ever be authentic is absurd to me. There is no successful weapons designer or arms procurement department in history that would accept designs for infantry weapons that required one weapon to penetrate personal protection and another to kill the person wearing it. Expecting that to be viable in actual combat is nuts. Inevitably, some form of compromise would be adopted or different kinds of weapons suitably integrated, rather than expect discrete weapon systems to be swapped to handle individual targets in the heat of combat.

There are countless other issues, from running endurance, to battery capacity, to the inventory system, to the indestructibility and non-interactivity of environments, to NPC behavior, to suits reactions to cold temperatures on nearly airless worlds, etc and so forth that crap all over my sense of authenticity, verisimilitude, and immersion, making my EDO experience, in combat or otherwise, far less enjoyable than it could be.

Radically augmented capabilities are fine and don't disrupt my sense of verisimilitude in the slightest. If anything our CMDRs mobility is significantly worse than what feels plausible to me, given the context of the rest of the setting. However, the Engineering stuff and scaling is problematic. There is no conceivable augmentation that could be done to a rifle that would double the energy it delivers to a target, per projectile, with no downsides, unless radically different propellant technologies were involved, which itself doesn't make sense if better propellants are known to be available. And even if this was the case, it would be reflected in dramatically different projectile velocities...but a G5 Karma has the same projectile velocity as a G1 and certainly doesn't have less ammo capacity than a stock weapon. Blatantly defying conservation of mass/energy, without an extremely good explanation, is the quickest way to upend my suspension of disbelief.

On it's own, there are too many absurdities in EDO's infantry combat for me to take it seriously. As an extension of the Elite setting, it's even worse, because it ignores those precedents and establish constraints too...the energy-drink sized rocket coming out of my CMDRs three-shot shoulder-fired weapon doing more damage than the man-sized rocket coming out of his ship is hard to ignore.
You can compare any single player story focused stealth game you want. Its the same result, it makes no sense and is entirely the wrong context, i really cannot see how you fail to understand that.

Let me try and explain. Deus Ex or Splinter Cell, only have to focus on one thing. Each level, handcrafted, tested, and the various outcomes. They can fine tune things like guard movements and rotations so they can work out where the player can find gaps in security to reach a new part of a level.

Now look at EDO. a whole galaxy of possible "levels". They can't handcraft these missions to be like a single player game sucg as splinter cell. Hence why it has a more generic stealth system, which i don't actually get what your problem is. It works pretty much the same as most stealth systems in most stealth based games or games that feature stealth. I mean you crouch, your steps are quiet. You walk, your steps a re a bit louder. You run, your steps are loud.

You can easily test this by moving past an NPC in a settlement and seeing when they turn round to look at you. Its similar to many games, and even slightly better than some. Not sure what you are expecting.

I mean, you want to do splits jumps in corridors and watch guards walk underneath you like Sam Fisher? You want to crawl through some air vents? Both even less realistic or plausible than what EDO provides.

Another issue you have is being a nitpicker of the highest order. Let me just clue you in, that this is not a good trait for someone that likes video games.

I mean you are talking about how realistic an engineers plasma rifle would be 2000 years in the future.......let that sink in. Relax. Play the game. Some things aren't going to add up because then the balance would be off somewhere, and somewhere in the galaxy, someone else will be complaining like its the biggest drama in the world.
 
Honestly I enjoy the combat loop. I never got the bullet sponge thing as I generally ran high combat zones with nothing upgraded beyond 2 with no issue. The energy pistol could drop shields in 3-4 bursts and then the kinetic rifle killed them pretty quick.

After I started using level 3-4 weapons (still dying have a 5) it was even quicker. Using the Lazer rifle to wipe shields and the plasma pistol to 1 shot once they dropped, or two shots of the were far out.


Positioning, maneuvering, managing shields and power add a lot.

As a pure fps game it definitely isn't my first choice. But for what it is iv definitely dumped enough time just into conflict zones to make it worth it. If it was altered to run more like a standard fps well... I would just go play a better dedicated fps.

It's also one of the most enjoyable co-op pve experiences iv had organizing complementary load outs and managing targets.


Over all while it has its problems I feel a lot of them are over blown. Personally I enjoy the fps combat far more than the ship. I had been playing since launch and only ever made it to level 3 in the combat ranking. Odyssey pushed that just shy of elite. (Though I really wish it didn't effect the combat rank. Let alone rank combat faster than mercenary for some reason)

Exactly this. I feel like many complainers are just bad at EDO. Its not a particualrly easy combat system early on. Positioning, tactical awareness and situational awareness, things not known as a top tier trait in many gamers, is a compulsory thing for dedicated EDO combat.

Or you can get engineers gear and then find easier missions far more forgiving.

Either way, its not something you can just jump straight into and be as successful as your 7 years of combat in space with your exploited credits and max engineered ships.....
 
Either way, its not something you can just jump straight into and be as successful as your 7 years of combat in space with your exploited credits and max engineered ships.....
No, nearly 30 years of FPS experience didn't make it that hard at all. I'd wager I got killed more by the poor performance than by stupid decisions.
 

Deleted member 182079

D
You can compare any single player story focused stealth game you want. Its the same result, it makes no sense and is entirely the wrong context, i really cannot see how you fail to understand that.

Let me try and explain. Deus Ex or Splinter Cell, only have to focus on one thing. Each level, handcrafted, tested, and the various outcomes. They can fine tune things like guard movements and rotations so they can work out where the player can find gaps in security to reach a new part of a level.

Now look at EDO. a whole galaxy of possible "levels". They can't handcraft these missions to be like a single player game sucg as splinter cell. Hence why it has a more generic stealth system, which i don't actually get what your problem is. It works pretty much the same as most stealth systems in most stealth based games or games that feature stealth. I mean you crouch, your steps are quiet. You walk, your steps a re a bit louder. You run, your steps are loud.

You can easily test this by moving past an NPC in a settlement and seeing when they turn round to look at you. Its similar to many games, and even slightly better than some. Not sure what you are expecting.

I mean, you want to do splits jumps in corridors and watch guards walk underneath you like Sam Fisher? You want to crawl through some air vents? Both even less realistic or plausible than what EDO provides.

Another issue you have is being a nitpicker of the highest order. Let me just clue you in, that this is not a good trait for someone that likes video games.

I mean you are talking about how realistic an engineers plasma rifle would be 2000 years in the future.......let that sink in. Relax. Play the game. Some things aren't going to add up because then the balance would be off somewhere, and somewhere in the galaxy, someone else will be complaining like its the biggest drama in the world.
And if every game developer had this sort of attitude, we'd all still be playing Pong.

Is a mechanic to immobilise, but not kill an NPC really too much to ask for? I don't even want to hear about PEGI rating excuses or whatever, in a game where you're mass murdering NPCs like there's no tomorrow (my EDO CMDR has killed hundreds of them, including harmless civvies, with barely any repercussions besides a small credit fee) and trade in slaves, weapons and drugs in bulk no questions asked.
 
And if every game developer had this sort of attitude, we'd all still be playing Pong.

Is a mechanic to immobilise, but not kill an NPC really too much to ask for? I don't even want to hear about PEGI rating excuses or whatever, in a game where you're mass murdering NPCs like there's no tomorrow (my EDO CMDR has killed hundreds of them, including harmless civvies, with barely any repercussions besides a small credit fee) and trade in slaves, weapons and drugs in bulk no questions asked.
The cartoony "I see stars" icon is still visible in the HUD popup when you zap NPCs, so once again it's another round of "Bug or Feature?".
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
Has there been any admittance that the shooter flow in Odyssey is sub-par? Dumping an entire magazine of headshot's into someone with the Oppressor and barely getting their shields down is so pathetic, but the Executioner will drop their shields entirely in one body shot, and kill most enemies with another (Meaning only 2/3 of the magazine to kill an enemy, as opposed to needing two whole magazines from a rifle).. Does anyone honestly think that's well balanced?

I get the desire to make laser weapons good against shields, and kinetic weapons good against flesh, but between the reload speeds, weapon switch speeds, and total magazine capacities, it's just frustrating..

Just double the amount of enemies and give them half the health..?

This isn't an unsolvable issue, but if the dev's or rest of the community don't believe this kind of combat flow is just unfun, then I'll just admit I'm wasting my time on this game and move on to something else..
To be fair, headshots shouldn't matter when it comes to shields damage. The while body is protected by the shield, so damage location is irrelevant.

After the shields drop - yes, that should matter (and I'm pretty sure it does, actualy).

If you're basing your whole argument on that one example, then it's an invalid argument.
 
To be fair, headshots shouldn't matter when it comes to shields damage. The while body is protected by the shield, so damage location is irrelevant.

After the shields drop - yes, that should matter (and I'm pretty sure it does, actualy).

If you're basing your whole argument on that one example, then it's an invalid argument.
Totally. Also there's one edge-case with the Intimidator which bleeds through shield if you deplete it with one volley of pellets in the head.
 

Deleted member 182079

D
The cartoony "I see stars" icon is still visible in the HUD popup when you zap NPCs, so once again it's another round of "Bug or Feature?".
Ha really... must check next time.

Oh another stealth game meme I just remember they could reasonably easily implement is to hide bodies. Metal Gear Solid 2 managed this yonks ago, and yes it's single player and no it doesn't matter because the layouts of the 27 settlement types are static so containers/lockers etc. could be added, with the AI routines to go along with that (raise alarm when body found straightaway, as opposed to "oh I'm standing inside another dead NPC, strange. Better get back to my navmesh routine though".

I don't think anyone expects an exact copy of dedicated stealth games but I don't believe the current status quo in the game is the best that is technically possible in 2021 2022.
 
I don't think anyone expects an exact copy of dedicated stealth games but I don't believe the current status quo in the game is the best that is technically possible in 2021 2022.
I'm still on the fence over whether the stealth aspects are intended or just happy little side effects from the AI being as it is.
 
And if every game developer had this sort of attitude, we'd all still be playing Pong.

Is a mechanic to immobilise, but not kill an NPC really too much to ask for? I don't even want to hear about PEGI rating excuses or whatever, in a game where you're mass murdering NPCs like there's no tomorrow (my EDO CMDR has killed hundreds of them, including harmless civvies, with barely any repercussions besides a small credit fee) and trade in slaves, weapons and drugs in bulk no questions asked.
Playing Pong? Ha ha, way to try and completely strawman the context. We aren't talking about re inventing the wheel of FPS gaming. We are talking about a huge game, with complex balancing and background simulation and adding an entirely different game mode within that framework, that has existed for years already.

I seriously question what you were expecting Odyssey to add, and that your expectations are not based in any reality.

Also, why are people obsessed with a "non lethal option"? What does it add, gameplay wise?
 
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