For the challenge.
To Solo Play Players: If You Could Disable PVP, Would You Play in Open Play Mode Instead?
- Thread starter AMX-008 GaZowmn
- Start date
For the challenge.
actually people would pvp a ton in fallout 76.. i know this becuase i played the game since the beta fase ... problem is the care bares complained about everything in the game (two shot explosive weapons etc being good) that they kept nerfing stuff . frist was the weapons. then armor then how pvp engaements would go on about. you used to be able to destroy player camps even if you warent hostile.. casuals complained then they removed the ability to destroy camps.. now no one atacks camps no people dont pvp .. you cant....... its not that people dont like pvp . its that it was pointless. they kept nerfing stuff. at one point they added survival servers. pvp since level 1 and you would drop all of the junk and 70% of your medical suplys .. but people got on so badly they nerfed and removed that mode to .. the problem with open in elite is not the gankers. the problem is the casuals not knowing that there are areas that you dont go alone in . or you dont go in open. and if you do you have to be aware that you are gona get ganked and have to take the precotions that you have to take ..I'm under the impression that a lot of people, including myself, prefer to play Solo mode all the time, not because we don't want to play with others, but simply because we don't want to PVP others.
For comparison, let me talk to you about of one of the worst launches in recent years, Fallout 76, which to the surprise of some has actually redeemed itself (at least to some extent), but owes it survival to its community, which stood during awful first year fo the game, but also a community that confused Bethesda because the devs were convinced their players wanted more PVP... and they were proven wrong, best depicted through many of the ironic headlines that gaming journalism used to deliver the "shocking" revelation:
Bethesda Didn’t Get Why ‘Fallout 76’ Players Wouldn’t Kill Each Other
Bethesda Didn’t Get Why ‘Fallout 76’ Players Wouldn’t Kill Each Other
Bethesda was surprised to learn that Fallout 76 players didn't care much for PvP, and how the game has evolved reflects that.www.forbes.com
Bethesda Apparently Shocked People Didn't Like PvP in 'Fallout 76'
Bethesda Apparently Shocked People Didn't Like PvP in 'Fallout 76'
"It's a smaller percentage of our player base than we thought."www.gamingbible.co.uk
Bethesda Surprised By How Many Fallout 76 Players Didn't Want to PvP
Bethesda Surprised By How Many Fallout 76 Players Didn't Want to PvP
Bethesda VP Pete Hines reveals that the company was surprised to find that players preferred to avoid PvP in Fallout 76 in favor of PvE.gamerant.com
Bethesda was surprised how uninterested players were in Fallout 76's PvP
Bethesda was surprised how uninterested players were in Fallout 76's PvP
We just want to be friends.www.pcgamer.com
Bethesda got confused that Fallout 76 players don’t murder each other
Why is everyone being so nice?
Bethesda got confused that Fallout 76 players don't murder each other
When Bethesda was designing Fallout 76, it expected players to murder each other, but it turns out they'd rather just work together.www.pcinvasion.com
Don't misunderstand: Fallout 76 do had (still has to a small degree) griefers and gankers, but the vast majority of players simply preferred not to engage in PVP.
Keeping things short, today many of the ways to engage into PVP have been disabled, pacifist mode is a menu option that makes it almost impossible to engage in PVP, and while the game's reputation will forever be tarnished by its launch, its actually in a better than many people expected (which can't be said for games like EA's Anthem, which already threw the towel and cancelled further development). It still is no substitute for a proper Fallout 5, but as a casual time waster with a Fallout theme: it's passable.
Back to Elite Dangerous, I think a lot more people would like to try playing in Open Play with random strangers in Elite if they had the choice to opt out from PVP, like having an aforementioned pacifist mode that disabled PVP interactions.
But that's just my impression, and I would like to hear what other thinks on this matter:
Do you think that Open Play would be negatively affected if PVP could be disabled?
Do you think Elite could benefit from having more people try to play & cooperate with others in Open Play?
me pvping in 76
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Sounds like a significant enough subset of the game's player-base didn't enjoy the PvP implementation in the game, so the developers took note and changed the game.
Some people like PvP, some don't.
Well people play games to actually have fun, you know. Loosing is not fun. Loosing, and loosing, and loosing...and loosing, is definitively not fun. Loosing hard to get stuff is seriously unfun. And when it is openworld mainly PVE game where you can gather, craft, buy with ingame or real money more effective gear it gets pretty uneven too. PVP game where all players have about same level stuff gives somewhat equal chances. You have a gun that can kill in one headshot, hey I have same kind of gun too. Now it comes down to just skill and luck. On other hand if you have powerarmour, and arsenal enough to bring down small country, and all I have is a lead pipe does not make very fun encounter for me.
WHAT?
Not all players is interested in all aspects of the game, and won't practice those parts. So what you and me can find easy, could be a magic mystery to others. Interdiction is one such element in the game, it is not always easy for a non combat interested player to win an interdiction, they have no real reason to practice this, and for a long time, they could follow a pretty often suggestion to submit, boost, engage FSD routine, as it was easier for them than trying to win the interdiction mini game, so as long that worked for them, why should the change?
And just saying, it is so easy, does not make it so. Making fun and downplaying other players experience with a specific game mechanic, because they are EASY TO YOU, does not make it to easy for everyone else.
So let redo the who argument, but this time, lets put your lack of skill in the hotseat, you are failing a pretty simple game mechanics of interdiction from other players, how pathetic isn't that? as you have said yourself, you rather submit than trying to win the interdiction from another player. this is a stupidly EASY thing todo. so if I can do that, how can't you?
or should we go over the whole thing with players having different interests and skills in this game again? talking about how things might be easy for some, but difficult for others?
It's no less on me to decide that than it's on you, but actually I did not "decide" anything. My point was that if NPCs are a serious threat for you, then you are clearly below the level a 10 year old child was perfectly capable of reaching with minimal experience. Which, in all likelihood, would place you pretty far from the median in the Gaussian distribution. And I'm terribly sorry but if the difficulty level of PvE is so easy that it's a challenge only for the most inept few % of the playerbase (which is pretty clearly the case as things stand now), then it's just a sign of bad game design with all its consequences including threads like this one.
That's losers' attitude. There is no such natural law in existence that you will always lose, but it takes effort on your part to win. Losing may not be fun, but (pretty much unlike winning) it's the best opportunity to learn. Since (thanks fdev) there in no pay-to-win gear in this game, the playing field is pretty level, you have equal opportunities to get the best equipment as everyone else, which means you will only lose because of your own mistakes. And that's a good thing because your own (and other people's) mistakes are what you can learn from, and eventually you will win.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
If the learning itself does not lead to fun then it's not worth the effort, e.g. "gittin' gud" at PvP is fun for some but not for others.
.... "level" after unlocking all of the relevant Engineers, gathered all of the requisite materials for sufficient rolls to engineer weapons and modules and when flying the same ship.
Basic life cycle of PVP centric MMO: Early gamers get good stuff. New gamers come in, get roflstomped to oblivion by gamers with "god tier" stuff. New gamers get frustrated, start leaving, game goes bust, or game ceases to be PVP centric. Some new title come in, same PVP people migrate to that, and cycle continues. Elite has avoided this by NOT being PVP centric and having multiple options to actually avoid unwanted PVP.
For some inexplicable reason I have never seen a CMDR who actually tried and achieved it and then decided out of experience that it did not lead to fun.
But the grapes are clearly sour, yes.
So what? How does that negate what I said about the existence of equal opportunities?
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
I expect that those who are PvP-inclined will persevere and enjoy it once they have "got gud enuff". That's no surprise whatsoever.For some inexplicable reason I have never seen a CMDR who actually tried and achieved it and then decided out of experience that it did not lead to fun.
But the grapes are clearly sour, yes.
That not all players find PvP to be fun, whether on the delivery or receiving end, means that not all players will be inclined to "git gud" at PvP - as it is something that they don't need or want to engage in.
Not a negation - noting that there's a not insignificant time gate to getting on to the level playing field - and even then only when actually flying PvP-focused ships (which many do not as there are other, more interesting to some, things to do in the game that don't involve PvP or even combat in general).
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In current game, yes one can get from Sidey to some top level stuff relatively easy. Just takes patience. But lets assume our PVP crowds dream game: "Elite Truly Dangerous". Ok no modes but Open only. No blocking either. Scaled up NPC's from start. Difficult credits. Probably server run subscription service, instead of P2P. Now every nb needs to run PVP gauntlet continuously to even get from Sidey to Cobra, every time you loose an encounter it most likely would leave to bankcruptcy. Okay you manage to get that somewhat better ship. Now comes engineering grind, AND nice ganker gauntlet in engineer bases...after a long arduous journey YAY you might have something that may survive some seconds...
I would think that such game would be really really niche, and quite unpopular for new gamers.
And losing subscribers, FD will deem it unsustainable and let it die off, then shut it down.
PvP focused open world games without matchmaking limitations are casual-hostile, hence not sustainable.
I am very certain that Star Citizen will sooner or later face the same wall. Their project already IS a bottomless barrel that requires constant funding.
Which is actually not really true in this game.
Early gamers were given way worse gear, and engineering is much easier now than it used to be in its original implementation (still it should be made even more easily accessible, I agree with that). There always has been a pretty steady influx of new PvPers and while there were some fluctuations, the number of active members of the PvP community is not significantly lower today than it used to be 2 years ago (although the Odyssey disaster certainly had its effects). The people who typically left were not the newcomers who got "roflstomped" but rather the experienced PvPers who got disillusioned because of the tons of bugs and balance problems that never got fixed by fdev. They did not really migrate to new titles, at least not in the same genre (there are only a few space pewpew games in existence and so far none of them is really comparable to Elite's flight model). "Having multiple options to actually avoid unwanted PVP" does not really have anything to do with the above situation.
"Dream mode" or not, realistically speaking Open Only Elite Dangerous (with only one mode as you described) cannot happen, but not primarily because of ganking, but because it would require a HUGE redesign of many fundamental game elements (starting with landing pads, for example). I agree with what you said about the engineering grind, too. I don't think it would be outright impossible to design such a game, but there's a reason why most serious "Open Only" proposals had much more humble goals (like OOPP).
What I'm saying, is that you do not need to be PVP'er to play this game, you do not need to "git gud" to play this game, and you can actually play this like there are no pvp'ers at all in this game. That's very easy to do. That also keeps down effect where veterans can roflstomp newbies, especially after newbies have learned ways to avoid unwanted pvp.
You absolutely don't need to become a PvPer to play this game, I never said that.
But in order to be able to participate in any specific part of the game, you need to git gud in that specific field.
And ideed, that's what everyone is doing all the time. You need to learn how to fly, how to kill NPCs, you need to learn how to land on a planet, how to make credits etc etc.
In Open some opponents are hollow rectangles, but that's not a fundamental difference, it's just the irrational feeling of hurt pride that makes it so for some people.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Indeed - as PvP is required in none of the mode shared game features, it's not a requirement to participate in any part of the game (except CQC).
While one did (before Odyssey) need to learn how to fly, there's no need to learn to how to kill NPCs to earn three of the five in-game Elite ranks.
While some don't accept that there's a difference, Sandro acknowledged that there's a difference.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Indeed - baby steps in the quest to remove all mode shared game features from Solo and Private Groups.
Boiling frog - Wikipedia
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
While the premise that a frog will not jump out of increasingly hot water has been proven false, there's nothing to stop players leaving a game when there's no game left for them to play in their chosen game mode (due to it having been PvP-gated to Open only to suit a subset of the player-base at the expense of the rest of the player-base, even though all players bought access to mode shared content on the same terms when they bought the game).Boiling frog - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org