What is the Point of Manticore’s Oppressor?

[SergMx]

DPS calculations don't mean much in and of themselves, because they assume an ideal scenario that only happens when enemies don't move...though this is admittedly a pretty common thing with NPCs.

All the plasma weapons have serious issues against erratically moving targets because of their projectile velocities, and this is true at ranges way short of 40m. If someone is trying not to get shot, or an opponents path cannot be reliably predicted, for whatever reason, even a twentieth of a second of travel time will seriously impact accuracy.

In my modest experience with them, I actually like the carbines for their hip fire accuracy, which lets me keep my own mobility and situational awareness up. Higher ROF is also more forgiving when it comes to very binary results of damage in EDO's system; any sliver of shield means nothing from that projectile makes it to health/armor and any sliver of health means full and unimpeeded mobility and offensive firepower.

1. I wrote this for the ideal case as if the distance were 1 metre. Then even here you can see the low damage of the machine gun Oppressor.
2. 40 meters ? The Oppressor has a range of 35 meters ...
3a. Shooting from the hip can be increased by a mod.
3b. For mobility, there is a special suit mod - movement in combat (with a scope)
4. What is lost visibility from the side ... Here I agree.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

DPS calculations don't mean much in and of themselves, because they assume an ideal scenario that only happens when enemies don't move...though this is admittedly a pretty common thing with NPCs.

All the plasma weapons have serious issues against erratically moving targets because of their projectile velocities, and this is true at ranges way short of 40m. If someone is trying not to get shot, or an opponents path cannot be reliably predicted, for whatever reason, even a twentieth of a second of travel time will seriously impact accuracy.

In my modest experience with them, I actually like the carbines for their hip fire accuracy, which lets me keep my own mobility and situational awareness up. Higher ROF is also more forgiving when it comes to very binary results of damage in EDO's system; any sliver of shield means nothing from that projectile makes it to health/armor and any sliver of health means full and unimpeeded mobility and offensive firepower.

Got to agree - numbercrunching is all fine and well but at the end of the day I'm not in a competition (and EDO isn't a competitive shooter) and I pick the weapons that feel the most fun to me. Which is why I'm kind of steering clear of the Exec, Tormentor and L-6 - not because they're not devastating but I just don't find them very enjoyable, especially at distance (which the exec is supposed to be good at, it's such a weird weapon really but its attributes are gimped purely for game balance reasons, without any grounding in reality when it comes to how weapons work - the Scorpion SRV main gun is a similar if not more ridiculous example).

 

[Morbad]

1. I wrote this for the ideal case as if the distance were 1 metre. Then even here you can see the low damage of the machine gun Oppressor.
2. 40 meters ? The Oppressor has a range of 35 meters ...

Neither 1m nor 40m are typical engagement ranges for any of these weapons, but 40m is much more likely against actually dangerous target where one wishes to minimize the amount and effect of return fire.

3a. Shooting from the hip can be increased by a mod.
3b. For mobility, there is a special suit mod - movement in combat (with a scope)

Every mod costs a slot. With the mod, the carbines are accurate enough to reliably go for heatshots from the hip at common combat ranges, but the larger rifles are not. Likewise, with the hip fire accuracy mod on a carbine, the combat movement mod on the suit is redundant, leaving room for something else.

Not saying they are always, or even mostly superior, but they certainly have a far larger useful niche than something like the Oppressor, which really needs a really contrived scenario to shine.

I just don't find them very enjoyable, especially at distance (which the exec is supposed to be good at, it's such a weird weapon really but its attributes are gimped purely for game balance reasons, without any grounding in reality when it comes to how weapons work - the Scorpion SRV main gun is a similar if not more ridiculous example).

I think the balance for the plasma weapons is based on gameplay where even non-bugged NPCs don't move half the time:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_xzIBxbV8

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I think the balance for the plasma weapons is based on gameplay where even non-bugged NPCs don't move half the time:

It's funny how I can immediately tell whether other players are present in a CZ (apart from lag) - not by looking at the bandwidth meter, but whether anyone is airborne.

 

[SergMx]

Got to agree - numbercrunching is all fine and well but at the end of the day I'm not in a competition (and EDO isn't a competitive shooter) and I pick the weapons that feel the most fun to me. Which is why I'm kind of steering clear of the Exec, Tormentor and L-6 - not because they're not devastating but I just don't find them very enjoyable, especially at distance (which the exec is supposed to be good at, it's such a weird weapon really but its attributes are gimped purely for game balance reasons, without any grounding in reality when it comes to how weapons work - the Scorpion SRV main gun is a similar if not more ridiculous example).

If it wasn't for the long grind, you could try all the weapons and make your own choices.

P.S. I don't know who can hit the Scorpion (only missile at Galiaf) but the Scarab has the right gun.

 

[Morbad]

If it wasn't for the long grind, you could try all the weapons and make your own choices.

I've tried most weapons with most individual mods just from buying pre-upgraded ones. Haven't tried most combinations though.

Of course, this is all intentional. Frontier wants to drag things out as long as possible...more time to tempt people with cosmetics, apparently.

 

[SergMx]

Neither 1m nor 40m are typical engagement ranges for any of these weapons, but 40m is much more likely against actually dangerous target where one wishes to minimize the amount and effect of return fire.



Every mod costs a slot. With the mod, the carbines are accurate enough to reliably go for heatshots from the hip at common combat ranges, but the larger rifles are not. Likewise, with the hip fire accuracy mod on a carbine, the combat movement mod on the suit is redundant, leaving room for something else.

Not saying they are always, or even mostly superior, but they certainly have a far larger useful niche than something like the Oppressor, which really needs a really contrived scenario to shine.



I think the balance for the plasma weapons is based on gameplay where even non-bugged NPCs don't move half the time:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_xzIBxbV8

To shoot a carbine at 40 metres you also need a mod that also takes up a slot.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I've tried most weapons with most individual mods just from buying pre-upgraded ones. Haven't tried most combinations though.

Of course, this is all intentional. Frontier wants to drag things out as long as possible...more time to tempt people with cosmetics, apparently.

Precisely this (and I tried all weapons at G3 so know what I want to invest my mats on, and which ones I will put on the backburner) - which is why I don't expect much to change, unless Frontier start adding more gameplay to EDO; ownership and upgrading of a suit/weapon is the core gameplay of Odyssey unfortunately.

And if I want to be extra cynical about it, I often wonder which idea came first - monetisation of futher assets in the game via suits/weapon skins, or adding on-foot gameplay to expand Elite's sandbox.

 

[Morbad]

To shoot a carbine at 40 metres you also need a mod that also takes up a slot.

I'm pretty sure the maximum range on the carbines is at least 50m without any mods. It's just not going to do much damage that far into falloff.

Regardless, that's beside the point. 40m is already beyond the range you'd want to use anything other than an Aphelion against targets that are actually trying to avoid fire and completely unnecessary for fighting NPCs that are already aware of you.

I'd wager most combat against already hostile opponents is going to take place at 5-20m, and even at the edge of that the carbines are accurate and doing full damage. Anything past ~10m is going to make projectile velocity of plasma an issue, if the target moves in anything other than a straight line at a constant velocity. Anything beyond the effective range of a carbine is rare against NPCs that one isn't sniping. I mean sure, I'll rain missiles on groups in a CZ from 200m out, but if the NPCs are already aware there is no real downside to allowing them to close to ~20m, because I can evade most of their fire at that range and they can evade almost none of mine.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I haven't bothered adding the Greater Range mod to any of my weapons because the AI, in their infinite wisdom and eagerness, always rush towards me so there's no point apart from some sniping perhaps (which I don't find very enjoyable in EDO since there's no actual sniper rifle).

 

[SergMx]

I haven't bothered adding the Greater Range mod to any of my weapons because the AI, in their infinite wisdom and eagerness, always rush towards me so there's no point apart from some sniping perhaps (which I don't find very enjoyable in EDO since there's no actual sniper rifle).

I haven't been to the War Zone since update 10 as I've been collecting materials in missions.
What surprised me was that before, I would open a building and shoot inside (throw a grenade) and everyone in the building would run to the entrance and I would defend the building.
After update 10 I don't have that. As a rule, everyone hides in their places with their guns cocked.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I haven't been to the War Zone since update 10 as I've been collecting materials in missions.
What surprised me was that before, I would open a building and shoot inside (throw a grenade) and everyone in the building would run to the entrance and I would defend the building.
After update 10 I don't have that. As a rule, everyone hides in their places with their guns cocked.

I've done a few CZs recently (always High as the others don't pay well) and I seem to observe some deterioration in the AI. Delays of things starting to "move" at the beginning (only after I engage an enemy) and not very inspiring behaviour of the AI in general. I'm seeing them as credit farms now, with G4 gear they're almost impossible to lose (although I die now and then if I get cornered). Changing my loadouts makes things slightly more interesting but not by much.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

I haven't been to the War Zone since update 10 as I've been collecting materials in missions.
What surprised me was that before, I would open a building and shoot inside (throw a grenade) and everyone in the building would run to the entrance and I would defend the building.
After update 10 I don't have that. As a rule, everyone hides in their places with their guns cocked.

Now that's an actual improvement to the AI. I'm just just to them coming to the slaughter like moths to a flame....well, unless they really outzerg me. I still wish they'd use cover and ambush even more.

 

[Cosmik_Debris]

I haven't bothered adding the Greater Range mod to any of my weapons because the AI, in their infinite wisdom and eagerness, always rush towards me so there's no point apart from some sniping perhaps (which I don't find very enjoyable in EDO since there's no actual sniper rifle).

Ive got range on my G5 Aphelion (the G3 one i picked up came with it, added faster handling and mag size and will add scope when i get 5 more financial projections). Its quite nice, since its hitscan you can use it at full range pretty effectively. Not great at killing high CZ enemies though, due to the thermal resist, so it really just breaks up groups as some of them take cover to get shields back.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Ive got range on my G5 Aphelion (the G3 one i picked up came with it, added faster handling and mag size and will add scope when i get 5 more financial projections). Its quite nice, since its hitscan you can use it at full range pretty effectively. Not great at killing high CZ enemies though, due to the thermal resist, so it really just breaks up groups as some of them take cover to get shields back.

I considered it at first, but then realised it's just the effective range not the maximum (i.e. I can already hit enemies at greater distance, it'll just take longer). I still have one empty slot on my Aphelion, (both rifles are G4 currently), I will most likely apply the Stowed Reloading mod on it, as I have that on the AR-50 already and it feels like a good option given the constant swapping between the two. Might add larger mag size to the AR-50, then both rifles are aligned in terms of mods (Stability, Audio Masking, Larger Mag, Stowed Reloading).

 

[Northpin]

Carabines are better than the rifles in close combat (ranges under 40m)
I have used a G5 Eclipse in a high CZ (in the last combat CG - last weekend) and it was effective even against G5 NPC.
Sometimes i used it to finish NPCs that were below 30% health (my Eclipse has increased magazine size)

Also the C-44 is very good when paired with an Eclipse, much better than AR-50 for close range combat (bellow 30-40m)

 

[TrollhunterX]

FWIW, I also would like to see at least a true DMR in Odyssey and not the scoped slug shotgun that claims to be one (Executioner). Maybe a Beam Laser LMG too, while we're at it

I'm resigned to accepting that this will never happen, for much the same reason as there will never be a tool for rendering NPCs unconscious

They already made the kinetic rifle a meta since the resistance of the shield is not known and it does not matter which place to shoot at.
But even the level 5 Dominator with resistance has the smallest resistance to kinetic.
Perhaps not properly set resistance suits.

I'm tempted to try some kinetic stuff, for comparison, but the [Tormentor?] pistol works pretty well for clearing up, at least with scavengers.

 

[TrollhunterX]

I actually wrote the first bit from above yesterday, but backspaced away from it because I couldn't honestly say that it was the 'same reason'.

The board has a curiously persistent memory for anything we type in, adding it to the next comment...

 

[CMDR The Riz]

They think the limitation on the number of missiles and its reload speed is enough factor not to carry 2 of them.
And from what I understand all THIS has no weight...

But the thing is (all grade 5):
C44 : 13.3x1.9 = 25.27 (DPS) vs AR50: 10.0x2.7 = 27 (DPS)
Eclipse: 10.0x2.5 = 25 (DPS) vs Aphelion: 5.7x4.7 = 26.79 (DPS)

At a distance of ~40m, the speed of this weapon is enough not to count it.
And there is no way to increase the damage and rate of fire, but the reloading and handling speed of the weapon can.

And it turns out that C44 and Eclipse are the worst weapons.

In terms of raw DPS, yes.

They do have advantages over Rifles in other areas - larger potential damage pools per magazine, better hipfire characteristics, faster handling, etc.

Got to agree - numbercrunching is all fine and well but at the end of the day I'm not in a competition (and EDO isn't a competitive shooter) and I pick the weapons that feel the most fun to me.

I'll be the first to admit I get absolutely lost in the numbers more often than not, though in this case it I wasn't aiming for "So here's the fastest TTK with the best weapons to use now get out there and own everybody!!1!1!" as I was "...oh so THAT'S why the Oppressor feels so bad" - backing up my in-game experience with some numbers to see if they line up, essentially.

In this case, they do. I believe I have created a strong enough argument for buffing the Oppressor using those numbers; time will tell if that truly is the case and I managed to convince somebody at FDEV to at least have a second look at Odyssey's sandbox, if they noticed this thread at all

In the meantime, I'll be switching back to my AR-50 and figuring out the last two mods to put on it (I have the Scope and Magazine Size mods on it at present). I might take the Oppressor out every once in a while as it is probably my favorite art- and sound-wise out of the Odyssey sandbox.

[...] the Scorpion SRV main gun is a similar if not more ridiculous example).

Oddly enough I think the Oppressor might have a faster TTK than the Scorpion's Surge Repeater because of that negative bloom thing...

I think the balance for the plasma weapons is based on gameplay where even non-bugged NPCs don't move half the time:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_xzIBxbV8

I just noticed that happening quite a bit last night as I was dismantling the local Security Forces at a Settlement - is that a new bug or am I just noticing it more?

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I'll be the first to admit I get absolutely lost in the numbers more often than not, though in this case it I wasn't aiming for "So here's the fastest TTK with the best weapons to use now get out there and own everybody!!1!1!" as I was "...oh so THAT'S why the Oppressor feels so bad" - backing up my in-game experience with some numbers to see if they line up, essentially.

In this case, they do. I believe I have created a strong enough argument for buffing the Oppressor using those numbers; time will tell if that truly is the case and I managed to convince somebody at FDEV to at least have a second look at Odyssey's sandbox, if they noticed this thread at all

In the meantime, I'll be switching back to my AR-50 and figuring out the last two mods to put on it (I have the Scope and Magazine Size mods on it at present). I might take the Oppressor out every once in a while as it is probably my favorite art- and sound-wise out of the Odyssey sandbox.

No doubt does working the numbers help establish whether the (a) gun is poorly balanced more easily and certainly objectively, I was merely speaking from a purely subjective preferred feel point of view - which explains that while I understand that the Oppressor isn't great I still use it regardless (vs low level NPCs) and am still tempted to further upgrade it before I do so with others, whereas I barely ever use other players' meta aka the Exec because it kinda leaves me cold and the slow bullet velocity annoys me when NPCs can easily sidestep it last second at longer distances (which is supposed to be the key use case for this rifle based on its design).

I suppose an unintended positive side-effect is because it's so poorly balanced I won't use it all the time, which would be a bit boring to be fair. Though I obviously agree it really needs some form of buff.