Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[Darkfyre99]

Every single time I see the NPCs in action this freefly, I'm thinking that it's going to take a long time before they get something as basic as I see in Empyrion Galactic Survival, let alone something with genuine personality, like I see in Stonehearth.

The crowds standing as still as mannequins, all staring into space in the same direction. The jerking head turn and brief smile 15 seconds after I pass a "store keeper." The bartender who moves five steps to my left when I approach them. Seriously... except for the one NPC that had some body language, everyone I've seen so far this week has been hitting the uncanny valley hard. I haven't been kidding when I compare them to something I've seen in a horror movie.

Tonight, hopefully, I'll be facing them in combat. I am now ready for action!

Spoiler: Time for some First Person Shooting!

 

[Old Duck]

I haven't been kidding when I compare them to something I've seen in a horror movie.

That's not a horror NPC. Now this, THIS is a horror NPC!!

Thankfully it's also the exception rather than the rule (as long as you talk to NPCs face-to-face and not from the side).

 

[VR Golgot]

what we havent seen afaik is actual people playing it live, I am not especially worried about S42 personally I think it is far more likely to make it out in the next few years than SC is......... you can choose to believe S42 is all lies, it is your prerogative but there ARE videos for it.

People question the validity of them - because SC do not have a good track record on that (sandworm for instance) but they exist.

People question SQ42's state for two main reasons:

A) They've missed a ton of launch deadlines:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ue0lzVnys

The most recent deadline that flew by was the aim of closed beta by Q2 2020. They are currently nowhere close to beta status.

B) A lot of features & technology are shared with SC:

There are a few issues here:

• Lots of features simply aren't ready. (Say multicrew NPCs, for example, but there are so many more).
• Lots of tech developed with SC in mind is clearly an impediment to making a single-player game.
• Some core aspects of the game are still decidedly shonky, and not at a launch state, regardless of networking issues. (Everything from the UI being poor up to ships exploding due to a piece of fruit clipping through them, etc).

But are you seriously suggesting NPC crew to fly your ships or NPC escort missions CANT work? ..... IF CIG can't make those fairly standard features for their kind of game (given that games like xwing (escort missions) and Frontier (ship crew - admittedly I would hope for better implementation now) had them in decades ago) then they are in the wrong business.

They should totally be able to do that. The problem is that they're pitching for way more than that. Way way more. And spinning their wheels trying to get there. We're 7 years down the line from those pitches, and there are no NPC engineers who are indistinguishable from humans, with their own likes and wants, managed by you in some form of glorified zoo management game . (No NPCs living 24hr life cycles on board capital ships, no way to staff your ship with your own alts, etc etc)

And so many of the fundamentals are still at the napkin drawing stage. The latest video our shill friend repackaged for you is full of discussions about how they still don't know how Engineering is supposed to work. They just have some animations for NPCs inspecting and replacing components. They don't seem to know how the components will work. They don't seem to know how the player's version of that gameplay will work. It's all still seemingly at the skunkworks stage, in 2022.

And the problem is that the current NPC system is genuinely working beyond capacity. (As seen by the city NPCs, and notably the 'complex' NPCs like the bartender, ceasing to function as the server fills out). The processing load from any attempts to have all this complexity will probably keep any basic pilot NPCs in a degraded state, purely due to overall load. Until they decide all the fancy stuff is silly and rip it all out. Or just solider on with an increasingly dysfunctional system as they add more stuff in. (Or invent the miracle of 'dynamic server meshing', whichever comes first )

That's SC's conundrum...

 

[VR Golgot]

That's not a horror NPC. Now this, THIS is a horror NPC!!

View attachment 307776

Thankfully it's also the exception rather than the rule (as long as you talk to NPCs face-to-face and not from the side).

SC has you covered

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/uxod40

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/uxod40/i_hope_they_never_fix_this_its_good_content/

 

[KillaALF]

That's not a horror NPC. Now this, THIS is a horror NPC!!

View attachment 307776

Thankfully it's also the exception rather than the rule (as long as you talk to NPCs face-to-face and not from the side).

That's VR, though, right? I've never seen anything like this in pancake and trust me, Rebirth's NPCs were way worse than even that. But yeah, if you can't afford to throw hundreds of artists at a game, that is a possbile result. I am rather glad that Egosoft focused their efforts on other stuff instead.

 

[Old Duck]

That's VR, though, right? I've never seen anything like this in pancake and trust me, Rebirth's NPCs were way worse than even that. But yeah, if you can't afford to throw hundreds of artists at a game, that is a possbile result. I am rather glad that Egosoft focused their efforts on other stuff instead.

No, I haven't a clue how to run X4 in VR (feel free to tell me). I do have a mod that adds a bunch of extra NPCs to the game for way more variety, but I guess that includes Mr. Fantastic from the Fantastic 4

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE X4. In fact, I keep finding myself comparing it to the things I would enjoy in Star Citizen, and once you remove the obvious graphics advantage that SC has, I think, "But I'm already doing that in X4 and loving it, so do I really need SC?" I do dream, someday, of a version of X with Star Citizens graphics (and Elite's realistic solar system modeling). I don't know if that's in the cards or not, but it's probably likelier than dreaming that other games with better graphics get X4's best features. Though I had hoped, years ago when CiG showed off their NPC economy, that SC might become that. Of course this never happened IIRC

 

[AkenBosch]

X4 has no VR, that's just stuff that I have seen happening from time to time since the recent updates. No idea if related to mods or also happens in vanilla.

 

[KillaALF]

No, I haven't a clue how to run X4 in VR (feel free to tell me). I do have a mod that adds a bunch of extra NPCs to the game for way more variety, but I guess that includes Mr. Fantastic from the Fantastic 4

My bad, sorry, I got confused - Rebirth has a VR version, X4 does not, so it is probably due to the mod you are using.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE X4. In fact, I keep finding myself comparing it to the things I would enjoy in Star Citizen, and once you remove the obvious graphics advantage that SC has, I think, "But I'm already doing that in X4 and loving it, so do I really need SC?" I do dream, someday, of a version of X with Star Citizens graphics (and Elite's realistic solar system modeling). I don't know if that's in the cards or not, but it's probably likelier than dreaming that other games with better graphics get X4's best features. Though I had hoped, years ago when CiG showed off their NPC economy, that SC might become that. Of course this never happened IIRC

As long as there are other fun games to play, a wait and see approach is the most sensible thing to do, anyway. I got suckered in with the kickstarter to the tune of 60$, never spent a cent more, never refunded. I also never received the two games I am owed, but I certainly got at least some entertainment out of this project. The circus surrounding it was certainly worth the price of admission

 

[Agony_Aunt]

SC has you covered

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/uxod40

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/uxod40/i_hope_they_never_fix_this_its_good_content/

LOL, music: Human League - Fascination.

The lyrics are so apt!

If it seems a little time is needed
Decisions to be made (hey, hey, hey, hey)
The good advice of friends unheeded
The best of plans mislaid
Just looking for a new direction
In an old familiar way (hey, hey, hey, hey)
The forming of a new connection
To study or to play
And so the conversation turned
Until the sun went down
And many fantasies were learned
On that day
Keep feeling fascination
Passion burning
Love so strong
Keep feeling fascination
Looking, learning
Moving on
Well the truth may need some re-arranging
Stories to be told (hey, hey, hey, hey)
And, plain to see, the facts are changing
No meaning left to hold
And so the conversation turned
Until the sun went down
And many fantasies were learned
On that day
Keep feeling fascination
Passion burning
Love so strong
Keep feeling fascination
Looking, learning
Moving on
And so the conversation turned
Until the sun went down
And many fantasies were learned
On that day
Keep feeling fascination
Passion burning
Love so strong
Keep feeling fascination
Looking, learning
Moving on
Keep feeling fascination
Passion burning
Love so strong
Keep feeling fascination
Looking, learning
Moving on
Keep feeling fascination
Passion burning
Love so strong
Keep feeling fascination
Looking, learning
Moving on

 

[PiLhEaD]

....People question the validity of them - because SC do not have a good track record on that (sandworm for instance) but they exist.

This one sentence encapsulates SC and SQ404 for me.

Like most here I'll be very happy if either or both get released and are decent. I liked the initial idea that SQ404 was the introduction to SC, where once you finish the missions you would be free to head out into an open world. It was a good idea. Ten years ago. It's just that 'things get stale after a couple of years'.

 

[Old Duck]

My bad, sorry, I got confused - Rebirth has a VR version, X4 does not, so it is probably due to the mod you are using.

Forgive my off-topic question, but what is this?

As long as there are other fun games to play, a wait and see approach is the most sensible thing to do, anyway. I got suckered in with the kickstarter to the tune of 60$, never spent a cent more, never refunded. I also never received the two games I am owed, but I certainly got at least some entertainment out of this project. The circus surrounding it was certainly worth the price of admission

I'm very tempted when I see people flying down to planets in Star Citizen, and even just walking around at sunset, but then I'm reminded that I can see amazing sunsets in Tamriel and New Austin (or even Space Engineers for that matter). To be honest, it's really the graphics that tempt me to Star Citizen, as I'm not sure it offers anything on a gameplay level that I don't already have in other games.

That and I'm a bit jaded by a failed Microsoft Flight Simulator experience (I know, I'm the minority here), so sometimes I think SC might be a nice stand-in. I'm probably better waiting for the new version of X-Plane.

 

[Viajero]

So whats their excuse for that?

The excuse is that people keep paying money without asking for the game.

 

[cigwatch]

Thing is, they could demo it plenty without spoilers. The whole spoilers excuse is pure guff.

For years they said they couldn't show any SQ42 because "spoilers". Then they did a 1 hour video of SQ42 play, without spoilers, then right after that they went back to using the spoilers excuse. Its complete and utter horse manure, like so much that comes out of CIG.

Not only that, there is nothing to spoil. If you played Wing Commanders or Strike Commander, you have played SQ42. It is a Chris Roberts game.

fair point..... and I am no fan of the way CIG have done things..... the things which I believe are a large part of the problem with SC i am not interested in anyway. i was happier with the much smaller scope of the game and do not need SC to be the best "everything" game. As such I am dissapointed with how delayed it is.

It is more about the tech, not the structure of the game. For years we have been told that SQ42 is basically the same thing as SC technically, only offline. And because of that, most of the technology is shared and whatever goes into SQ42 also profits SC and vice versa. This has been used as an excuse by CI to justify space whale fracking for the purpose of using the cash to develop Roberts' magnum opus.

This is concerning on several levels:

• Given the state of SC, we can derive the current state of SQ42 gameplay. The flight model, the gunplay, etc.
• Is SQ42 running all the SC services locally, to replicate the same stack? If so, SQ42 is in barely functional state, because the topology and nature of SC services is being revolutionized every two years. Is my machine going to run a Que Pasa process, a graph database, a single shard game server etc? If so, will they communicate using the same networking layer? Will my CPU blow up? (Spoiler: yes, it will)
• But it also makes no sense technically, because there is a lot of overhead for network communication that does not need to be done locally. However, without it, the interfaces for communication between processes sitting behind SC's networking layer, have to be different and diverge. You don't develop a sport coupe and a space shuttle on the same platform.
• Most importantly: will we get the fidelicious bed sheets in our SQ42 campaign? And what about the Vanduul? Can they finally fight using all the vanduulous combat animations developed over the years in completely non-spoilerous secret?

It really just doesn't cohere into anything sensible, no matter the scenario.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Not only that, there is nothing to spoil. If you played Wing Commanders or Strike Commander, you have played SQ42. It is a Chris Roberts game.

Or if you've seen the Wing Commander movie. Not that I would wish that on my worst enemy.

 

[Darkfyre99]

That's not a horror NPC. Now this, THIS is a horror NPC!!

View attachment 307776

Thankfully it's also the exception rather than the rule (as long as you talk to NPCs face-to-face and not from the side).

I generally prefer psychological horror movies myself, rather than body or slasher “horror.” Most of the NPCs I’ve seen in Star Citizen this free fly make me wonder if they’ve recently been taken over by some alien hive mind, and I’m the unknowing protagonist who just stumbled upon them as their minds are being assimilated.

It’s a far cry from even rudimentary AI from ten years ago, let alone the AI from some of the indi games I play. A game I kickstarted along side ED and SC managed to go above and beyond SC’s “subsumption” AI goal, and I doubt they ever raised more than a million dollars between the Kickstarter and early access sales.

 

[cigwatch]

I generally prefer psychological horror movies myself, rather than body or slasher “horror.” Most of the NPCs I’ve seen in Star Citizen this free fly make me wonder if they’ve recently been taken over by some alien hive mind, and I’m the unknowing protagonist who just stumbled upon them as their minds are being assimilated.

It’s a far cry from even rudimentary AI from ten years ago, let alone the AI from some of the indi games I play. A game I kickstarted along side ED and SC managed to go above and beyond SC’s “subsumption” AI goal, and I doubt they ever raised more than a million dollars between the Kickstarter and early access sales.

Interesting, which game was that?

 

[Xink]

There's more subsumption in the original The Sims than anything CIG has ever or will ever produce.

But Tony Z will still milk their journey to death by a million hour+ long talks about nothing.

 

[VR Golgot]

• Is SQ42 running all the SC services locally, to replicate the same stack? If so, SQ42 is in barely functional state, because the topology and nature of SC services is being revolutionized every two years. Is my machine going to run a Que Pasa process, a graph database, a single shard game server etc? If so, will they communicate using the same networking layer? Will my CPU blow up? (Spoiler: yes, it will)
• But it also makes no sense technically, because there is a lot of overhead for network communication that does not need to be done locally. However, without it, the interfaces for communication between processes sitting behind SC's networking layer, have to be different and diverge. You don't develop a sport coupe and a space shuttle on the same platform.

Here are...

Some sentences you wouldn't expect regarding a single player game:

July 2020

[Server-Side Object Container Streaming] is actually very important to S42 as in single player the client is effectively a server. The previous client only OCS implementation didn't help single player game modes as that relied on having a server around that maintained state and would replicate net binding changes to clients but in the single player case we need the full SOCS implementation to get the streaming benefits.

July 2020

Something I'm not sure has been explicitly stated elsewhere, but I'll highlight here, is that the global persistence benefits from the socs/icache work is how savegame will indeed work for S42.

(Ergo SQ42 entity / save game tech changed again when they changed iCache -> Entity Graph for Server Meshing reasons. No wonder it ain't coming this year. Again )

---

(And here's a bonus example of them having to rework an 'SC first' system)

Feb 2022

As SQ42 is a single-player-only experience, the team can determine what they want to be loaded at particular points in the game. So, they began adding more fine-grained control over what object containers stream in, and looked into overriding the systemic entity streaming system.

 

[Ronzer]

have you seen S42 in action? Last I heard (and i dont follow as closely as others so perhaps i am wrong) but last i heard S42 is expected to launch before SC, precisely because it is easier to implement and they are not showing too much of people playing it because of spoilers. Perhaps this is a lie, but for me it is plausible enough that it could be true..... after all I DONT want to see spoilers of the game. I am not making excuses for CIGs tardiness but reading posts on here makes it seem that nothing works in the game.

where as in general a lot of it does work some of the time

A lot of it doesn't work at the same time, though. It's like they have an egg carton that holds only 6 eggs, but they have 12 eggs, so they only put in a few, then swap them out. Can not wait for them to release the new Pyro system, since my guess is you'll have to restart and choose the Pyro system to start up. Or, if you did a "jump" to it, it would take much longer than currently quantum jumping, or whatever its called, to another planet. I had that work once, and it took 15 minutes. Would have been quicker to restart, go grab some food, watch some youtubes, while SC loaded in the new location.

The excuse is that people keep paying money without asking for the game.

Yeah, it's entirely possible they actually have the whole game, aside from them not being able to complete it, but releasing it would possibly ruin the gravy train. Every dollar more they get, the more reason not to release it.

No one did. That's very much the point of most of this whole ranting about. The "because spoilers" excuse is the most embarassingly appallingly lame one that anyone could really come up with. Name any other heavily story-driven single player title that never got any sort of actual trailer, or teaser, or sneak peek of its gameplay, because "spoilers". Spoiling tiny bits here and there is very much what teasing is all about, when you are not doing it, ten years in, you really have nothing to show, or having major issues with what's currently available.

Here's a spoiler. SC and SQ42 wont ever be released.

Every single time I see the NPCs in action this freefly, I'm thinking that it's going to take a long time before they get something as basic as I see in Empyrion Galactic Survival, let alone something with genuine personality, like I see in Stonehearth.

The crowds standing as still as mannequins, all staring into space in the same direction. The jerking head turn and brief smile 15 seconds after I pass a "store keeper." The bartender who moves five steps to my left when I approach them. Seriously... except for the one NPC that had some body language, everyone I've seen so far this week has been hitting the uncanny valley hard. I haven't been kidding when I compare them to something I've seen in a horror movie.

Tonight, hopefully, I'll be facing them in combat. I am now ready for action!

Spoiler: Time for some First Person Shooting!

View attachment 307775

They claim the NPCs are this and that, but of the few times I was able to run SC, one time something stood out....I went into an area and there was like a group of NPC's marching somewhere. That looked good, but I went into another area, but realized I went the wrong way, and headed back. That same group of NPC's had on completely different outfits! Wouldnt they have had to go change? Nope, its just a random thing maybe.

 

[Surefoot]

but there have been!....... there are multiple videos of SC / S42 I get emails from them about it monthly about updates.
(...)
People question the validity of them - because SC do not have a good track record on that (sandworm for instance) but they exist.

You kinda answered your own statement here but I'll clarify for you: these are not videos from SQ42. They are machinimas, just like that sandworm video... There's zero gameplay in there that's just a pre-computed movie (or "on-rails" sequence, which is in other terms a machinima). It's really obvious when you see anything move in those: the movements are smooth and realistic, unlike the really janky movements you can experience in game (for ships and player characters alike).
I dont think anyone can pretend having seen SQ42 gameplay, so far.