Make the engineering grind remotely palatable

[El General]

I think Frontier made engineering that way to make it a secondary game-play path. So the idea is that people would not invest right away all their time in this activity and rather do exploration/PowerPlay/etc.. and OP ships would be the exception not the norm. The ships would be engineered "as you go".
Similarly the credit fountain seems intentional to me so money issues gets out of the way rapidly.
It turns out it do not work as intended. I don't know why people wants to get rich quickly in Elite, to be honest or have as soon as possible the deadliest ship. Neither should be possible except on the rarest luck struck.

The thing is that you should as the developer clearly allow mechanics that you think help the game in some constructive way.

For example, telling you to look for signals for materials is a way to do it and it would take a lot of time to engineer a few modules in a ship (which is fine and maybe intended). This is not a problem. It requires commitment and as you say only the players that commit the most time would achieve this (with this insanely repetitive mechanic). The REAL problem comes when Frontier says... "OK. We agree that this is insane". And their solution is to allow reboot farming of signals and sites and to make a trader that Charges (in material currency) you usurer rates for your hard earned materials! I think that this is a mistake and shows lack of commitment for the Frontier team to the idea that the system is ridiculous and they seem to actively want to penalyze players that use this officially valid methods. The same as the fast tracking mechanics for PP (dont get me started on those horrifying more than 150 clicks.....).

 

[El General]

Maybe
However, i play Elite as my main game for 4 years already (with very little time allocated to some very very few other titles - like about 2 months for Mechwarrior 5 for example, in which time i played much much less ED), and i do tend to play in a focused way - putting my time to good use.



That's how i actually played both my alts (my xb "main" account has more engineered ship than both my pc alts together)
For months i played with no engineering at all (but with engineering in mind, picking materials when they came my way), then i gradually unlocked the engineers and gradually engineered my ships
My second alt took more than an year to unlock Palin - all this time happily using G3 drives. Also on this alt i've did a lot of combat in a G3/G4 Krait mk2, still not having the Corvette unlocked

So slow paced engineering is perfectly feasible
No grind engineering? perfectly feasible...

I agree. This is a valid playstile. I have near 1000 Gameplay hours and have not unlocked the vette myself.

 

[CMDR Correa]

B: FD looked at the game after launch and noticed how players liked to ‘grind’ so they put grind in the game where before there was none…from that point on everything seemed to go down hill.

Somehow this reminds me of:

clears throat

"Hey Dog! I heard you like to grind, so we've put a grind on your grind so you can grind while you grind!!!"

I'm sleepy tho, so someone else will have to come up with the jpg.

 

[Janguss]

I think the engineering is just fine. It's not like you need to upgrade every part for a single ship, only the best you can afford. Second, you won't engineer more than a handful of parts out of the entire ship anyways. All your hard points, some of your optionals, 2/3rds of your internals and that's it. You don't need to engineer the SRV AND most people don't own odyssey so you can't even complain about those wasted assets (as you can upgrade them but there's literally nothing to do with the suits or guns once you've upgraded them outside of conflict zones).

Imo, we need more parts to diversify ourselves from each other. Everyone only builds the meta build anyways so it's not like anything else matters, right? I know I don't personally pay attention to anything that's not something I personally plan on invested parts into.

Are you constantly synthesizing stuff? otherwise I don't see how you're going through so many parts, you got the big 3, your FDL/Mamba, your Python.....Or are you thinking you have to actually engineer all 38 ships? lol why on earth for?

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I think the engineering is just fine. It's not like you need to upgrade every part for a single ship, only the best you can afford. Second, you won't engineer more than a handful of parts out of the entire ship anyways. All your hard points, some of your optionals, 2/3rds of your internals and that's it. You don't need to engineer the SRV AND most people don't own odyssey so you can't even complain about those wasted assets (as you can upgrade them but there's literally nothing to do with the suits or guns once you've upgraded them outside of conflict zones).

Imo, we need more parts to diversify ourselves from each other. Everyone only builds the meta build anyways so it's not like anything else matters, right? I know I don't personally pay attention to anything that's not something I personally plan on invested parts into.

Are you constantly synthesizing stuff? otherwise I don't see how you're going through so many parts, you got the big 3, your FDL/Mamba, your Python.....Or are you thinking you have to actually engineer all 38 ships? lol why on earth for?

Well, some of us like having 7 different builds of engineered FdLs so we don't have to swap out modules.

I'm not complaining though- as you're saying, it was my choice to build that many.

Really though, I agree that you really don't need much in the way of engineering to have a functional ship. Hardpoints, distributor, drives, shields and shield boosters (and certainly not all the way to G5) for a combat ship; FSD for an exploration ship and a trade ship needs nothing at all.

 

[Janguss]

If anything, I'd like to see engineering become more diverse, utilizing more of what's already in the game rather than adding more materials to the loot tables. Be nice if we can further engineer our ships with experimental effects after the first one is added, further making our choices more unique. Almost like a material upgrade skill tree, that basically utilizes materials already found in the game, but comes up with....idk 8ish more upgrades to choose from+the option of a 2nd (and possibly a 3rd choice for you know....the uber rare ultra CG give-a-way module)

 

[El General]

I think the engineering is just fine. It's not like you need to upgrade every part for a single ship, only the best you can afford. Second, you won't engineer more than a handful of parts out of the entire ship anyways. All your hard points, some of your optionals, 2/3rds of your internals and that's it. You don't need to engineer the SRV AND most people don't own odyssey so you can't even complain about those wasted assets (as you can upgrade them but there's literally nothing to do with the suits or guns once you've upgraded them outside of conflict zones).

Imo, we need more parts to diversify ourselves from each other. Everyone only builds the meta build anyways so it's not like anything else matters, right? I know I don't personally pay attention to anything that's not something I personally plan on invested parts into.

Are you constantly synthesizing stuff? otherwise I don't see how you're going through so many parts, you got the big 3, your FDL/Mamba, your Python.....Or are you thinking you have to actually engineer all 38 ships? lol why on earth for?

I agree on many points. There are 2 I do not:

1.- "Most people dont own odyssey so we cant even complain about the assets". I d not understand the logic in that statement. The complaint was (I think) that the assets required to upgrade are too much grind. I do not see the connection between the amount of players owning odyssey as a reason not to complain that the system needs to be modified. What do the ones that have and want to play odyssey do? return it? that is your suggestion? because most people do not own it? the requirement of obtaining AR50 level 5 (from level 4) is to obtain 115 components (1 by 1) on a RNG spawn logic. It apperas too grindy to my and far beyond lore or immersion logic.

2.- Meta grinding is really only a thing in PvP and the PvE component on this game is huge and awesome. There are many playstyles available for PvE content, not only the most efficient damage or tank wise. I enjoy my 100% torpedo type 10 build for some boulty hunting missions and my mamba Pacifyer-Shock-VentBeam build for target practice and they are far from optimal... hahaha.


On other aspects, for example I totally agree that we need to diversify further to have more play stiles available.

 

[Janguss]

as in "you can't complain about those assets.....because that would involve a whole 'nother essay for me to try to fix. I never meant that you actually can't complain about it, just not in the same breath as asking for engineering to be more palatable is like....already asking a lot.

 

[El General]

as in "you can't complain about those assets.....because that would involve a whole 'nother essay for me to try to fix. I never meant that you actually can't complain about it, just not in the same breath as asking for engineering to be more palatable is like....already asking a lot.

ah. ok. understood

 

[Kailoren]

There are a number of ways to quickly farm G4 or G5 materials and then trade down. If you spend enough time doing it you'll be set. I haven't even touched any material sites in over a year and still upgrade my engineering.

The truth is as others have said you don't NEED G5 engineered everything. Its nice to have, yes, but its optional. I went and farmed G5 access on all the engineers way back in horizons just for completionism sake, but most of my ships are only G3/G4 engineered with the exception of a few modules. I think the only ship which us fully maxed G5 is my AX Chieftain (for obvious reasons). The real issue here is Odyssey engineering. The disparity between the amount of time required just to get the mats you need for suits/weapons compared to ship engineering is an absolute joke. There are no particular "farms" for mats (such as HGE farming, the barnacle sites, Dav's Hope) for on foot engineering, and It's far more efficient to just find stations after the weekly maintenance that stock G3 pre-engineered weapons and armour and use those. But some people want everything for free I guess.

TL;DR - The game is a chore, there are no shortcuts, no pay to win systems, you get better by simply playing the game. And if that is something that bothers you then Elite isn't the game for you unfortunately. Just think yourselves lucky you dont have to endure the original engineering system...

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

FD confuses cause and effect, I believe. The grind is caked into the game because the way they think it should be played just doesnt work. The stuff that might have given me mats I have dismissed as "not worth the effort or maybe broken" and "not fun enough to spend time on" and is likely why I never got anywhere with engineers. Place the stuff on top I never heard of because the game likes to keep things obscure and you get the picture. Instead of faffing around to figure out where a score of different mats drop - I don't blame anytone to try a simple, albeit mind-killing alternative like relogging.
FD's way of dealing out rewards is broken, not fun and obscure.

 

[El General]

There are a number of ways to quickly farm G4 or G5 materials and then trade down. If you spend enough time doing it you'll be set. I haven't even touched any material sites in over a year and still upgrade my engineering.

The truth is as others have said you don't NEED G5 engineered everything. Its nice to have, yes, but its optional. I went and farmed G5 access on all the engineers way back in horizons just for completionism sake, but most of my ships are only G3/G4 engineered with the exception of a few modules. I think the only ship which us fully maxed G5 is my AX Chieftain (for obvious reasons). The real issue here is Odyssey engineering. The disparity between the amount of time required just to get the mats you need for suits/weapons compared to ship engineering is an absolute joke. There are no particular "farms" for mats (such as HGE farming, the barnacle sites, Dav's Hope) for on foot engineering, and It's far more efficient to just find stations after the weekly maintenance that stock G3 pre-engineered weapons and armour and use those. But some people want everything for free I guess.

TL;DR - The game is a chore, there are no shortcuts, no pay to win systems, you get better by simply playing the game. And if that is something that bothers you then Elite isn't the game for you unfortunately. Just think yourselves lucky you dont have to endure the original engineering system...

I agree:

however, I would prefer that when you say "There are a number of ways to quickly farm..." You referred to a chore like going far to an outer rich planet and search different spots to find the materials and stock up (which is valid for Raw materials). However, the "ways to quickly farm...." manufactured are immersion breaking because require you to reload the game for it to reset the location. I dont like that this is allowed by the developers in irder not to (lets say) fix the system.

Also, I agree that the system is not bad at all if you want to have a ship with some (or even all) engineering upgrades and thats it. It is doable fairly easily in a very iommersive way. requires a lot of travel and looking for stuff (which is totally fine and great as per design, I love it). But, if you want to experience the many dimmensions of the game (goid hunting, bounty hunting, trading, combat zones, exploration, etc. one ship will not be a practical solution and even if you stay with only one ship, different upgrades would probably be required even on the same module. So there is when it becomes a chore that some consider to be too demanding.

 

[El General]

FD confuses cause and effect, I believe. The grind is caked into the game because the way they think it should be played just doesnt work. The stuff that might have given me mats I have dismissed as "not worth the effort or maybe broken" and "not fun enough to spend time on" and is likely why I never got anywhere with engineers. Place the stuff on top I never heard of because the game likes to keep things obscure and you get the picture. Instead of faffing around to figure out where a score of different mats drop - I don't blame anytone to try a simple, albeit mind-killing alternative like relogging.
FD's way of dealing out rewards is broken, not fun and obscure.

Nice analysis!

 

[Kailoren]

I agree:

however, I would prefer that when you say "There are a number of ways to quickly farm..." You referred to a chore like going far to an outer rich planet and search different spots to find the materials and stock up (which is valid for Raw materials). However, the "ways to quickly farm...." manufactured are immersion breaking because require you to reload the game for it to reset the location. I dont like that this is allowed by the developers in irder not to (lets say) fix the system.

Also, I agree that the system is not bad at all if you want to have a ship with some (or even all) engineering upgrades and thats it. It is doable fairly easily in a very iommersive way. requires a lot of travel and looking for stuff (which is totally fine and great as per design, I love it). But, if you want to experience the many dimmensions of the game (goid hunting, bounty hunting, trading, combat zones, exploration, etc. one ship will not be a practical solution and even if you stay with only one ship, different upgrades would probably be required even on the same module. So there is when it becomes a chore that some consider to be too demanding.

Oh I agree that it takes the immersion out of it, all I meant was that there are faster ways around it so that a few hours or a couple days of material gathering will set you up for multiple G4/G5 ships for months. Then you can return to playing it properly. There does need to be balances made but I dont even know where to start with suggesting them to be honest

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

And you know what? The relogger grinders still care about playing the game. They just prefer the mind killing approach instead of the one that just makes you quit playing. I didn't do either and it wasn't fun playing either - thanks bulletsponge. FD is quite good at driving players away and engineering was their masterpiece in player unretention.

 

[Kailoren]

And you know what? The relogger grinders still care about playing the game. They just prefer the mind killing approach instead of the one that just makes you quit playing. I didn't do either and it wasn't fun playing either - thanks bulletsponge. FD is quite good at driving players away and engineering was their masterpiece in player unretention.

And yet people like you complain on the forums daily about the game being unplayable whilst still actively playing the game. Thus proving the point that while engineering is a difficult grind, it is optional content that doesnt massively impact your ability to play the game the way you want to

 

[Dox Paradox]

FD confuses cause and effect, I believe. The grind is caked into the game because the way they think it should be played just doesnt work. The stuff that might have given me mats I have dismissed as "not worth the effort or maybe broken" and "not fun enough to spend time on" and is likely why I never got anywhere with engineers. Place the stuff on top I never heard of because the game likes to keep things obscure and you get the picture. Instead of faffing around to figure out where a score of different mats drop - I don't blame anytone to try a simple, albeit mind-killing alternative like relogging.
FD's way of dealing out rewards is broken, not fun and obscure.

I wish it was even more obscure, that what Elite is at its very core : an exploration/adventure game in space. All other aspects are secondary, including combat.

 

[Brrokk]

And yet people like you complain on the forums daily about the game being unplayable whilst still actively playing the game. Thus proving the point that while engineering is a difficult grind, it is optional content that doesnt massively impact your ability to play the game the way you want to

To be fair, he doesn't actually play it, he just complains on the forum about a game he has no intention of playing.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

And yet people like you complain on the forums daily about the game being unplayable whilst still actively playing the game. Thus proving the point that while engineering is a difficult grind, it is optional content that doesnt massively impact your ability to play the game the way you want to

Got it wrong there, I don't play anymore - the bulletsponge just wasn't fun anymore. But either way - there is just another argument that accuses me of doing just that. You can never win with the white knights.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I wish it was even more obscure, that what Elite is at its very core : an exploration/adventure game in space. All other aspects are secondary, including combat.

Exploration is fine. Delving through excel sheets isn't. There isn't adventurers designing gameplay in ED - it's mathematicians. The boring ones.