1.2 vs 2.2 FDL: A comparison

[thirstyfish]

#20: That insanely awful, offset cockpit view.

Seriously, Art Dept - it's bad. Really bad.

Um...A lot of ships have the offset cockpit view. Python has it, cobra too, I recall that some of the large ships have the same thing. Its not a deal breaker, just a matter of spending some time to get accustomed to it. I bought my FDL after spending a long time in my python. The python pilot seat is offset to the left, and the FDL to the right, I spent some time doing landings to get used to the new cockpit view. After 20 minutes I was fine.

Also, do you drive a car? If so, does it have the driver seat in the middle of the vehicle? No? How did you get used to it? Right....experience. You drove the car and you learned where the car starts and stops. You got gud at driving the car by using the car. How is this any different?

 

[Truesilver]

Using your build, you get more speed using 3A over 3A Enhanced.
3A Enhanced 286/388 to 305/414 3A

Someone somewhere I think did a graph of where the mass tipping point is between enhanced / not enhanced. Note that my mass is lower than the 80 tons unmodded stated on coriolis: even my chaff are lightweight.

In my case I'm pretty sure that I'm right to have enhanced because the build featured has max boost of 616.

I don't think there's any way that a g5 dirty mod could get the standard thrusters up from around 390-400 to 616.

[EDIT: I have now put the unmodded stats into the new coriolis ...

http://beta.coriolis.edcd.io/outfit...42t25252569.Iw18UA==.Aw18UA==.&bn=FCR Courier

... and Enhanced Drives give 529 boost v normal giving 414]

Incidentally sorry to Mr Grape for the iCourier de-rail!!

(Perhaps it serves him right for telling me the other day he might copy my Courier ...)

 

[thorn-]

Um...A lot of ships have the offset cockpit view.

I was referring to ships as one travels "up the ladder" of ships commonly used for combat - not every other ship in the game.

IE - The Eagle, Viper, Vulture, FDS/FAS do not have offsets.

 

[thirstyfish]

I was referring to ships as one travels "up the ladder" of ships commonly used for combat - not every other ship in the game.

IE - The Eagle, Viper, Vulture, FDS/FAS do not have offsets.

So? do you not use ships with an offset view at all? I guess then you don't drive a car because they all have an offset view. See what I am getting at? Refusing to use a ship because you thinks its "ugly" doesn't make much sense. I don't like the look of the AspX or any of the T-series ships, but I have used them. I choose to not let the looks bother me too much.

Also, in the case of the eagle viper and vulture, they simply aren't big enough to accommodate a second seat. As far as the FDS family of ships, you pay in other ways, like how you are flying a brick that is very easy to hit from just about every angle. You get the cockpit view you want at the cost of being an easy target. Not a worthwhile trade off IMO.

 

[syngyne]

So? do you not use ships with an offset view at all? I guess then you don't drive a car because they all have an offset view. See what I am getting at? Refusing to use a ship because you thinks its "ugly" doesn't make much sense. I don't like the look of the AspX or any of the T-series ships, but I have used them. I choose to not let the looks bother me too much.

Also, in the case of the eagle viper and vulture, they simply aren't big enough to accommodate a second seat. As far as the FDS family of ships, you pay in other ways, like how you are flying a brick that is very easy to hit from just about every angle. You get the cockpit view you want at the cost of being an easy target. Not a worthwhile trade off IMO.

The Vulture does have a second seat. It's on the raised area behind the pilot, offset to the left, like in the Federal *ships.

 

[thirstyfish]

The Vulture does have a second seat. It's on the raised area behind the pilot, offset to the left, like in the Federal *ships.

Ok, so the vulture has a second seat. My overall point still stands. The FDS family has its fair share of drawbacks, and refusing to use a ship because you don't like how it looks is rather foolish.

 

[Ydiss]

Ok, so the vulture has a second seat. My overall point still stands. The FDS family has its fair share of drawbacks, and refusing to use a ship because you don't like how it looks is rather foolish.

I sort of agree but then I'm sure there are some pilots out there who prefer single seater aircraft and would always choose to fly those instead of two+.

Although perhaps not because "it's fugly and Omg displaced seating!"

 

[Odan Brota]

Argument A: The FDL is supposed to be an amazing combat ship! All other ships should bow to it!
Response: And the Corvette is supposed to be the ULTIMATE combat ship. All other ships would wither and die once they see it like a tomato in the sun. But that's not how it works currently.

Argument B: You don't *have* to use it! The FAS/FGS/Clipper/Courier/Vulture/Python/Corvette/Cutter still exist!
Response: But the FDL is the ultimate combat ship. It has zero downsides to it beyond the usual FDev stupidity like jump range and utility on the inside. And those don't matter once you're in a combat scenario.

Solutions:

A: Add utility mounts to the other ships, four has now been proven to be too weak in comparison to the FDL. Improve the FDL's jump range and give it more internal space to compensate.
B: Nerf the FDL back down to where it was. Reduced power plant, reduced thruster strength, and reduced cooling efficiency.
C: Nerf the FDL by removing two utility slots, and give it additional internal space.
D: Maybe think about introducing MORE SHIPS to COMPETE with the FDL.

 

[thirstyfish]

If you use any missiles or energy weapons with really high DPS in mind, you will see the heat is REAL, and it's a much bigger issue than other ships mentioned. If you aren't experiencing the heat, then you are probably using one of the prescribed low heat FDL builds. If you do any experimenting with various high DPS builds, then you might see what I am saying. Hit scan weapons like the Pulse Laser or the beam track pretty well. Other physical weapons, not so much. It also really depends on the heat of the target in question. The hotter they are, the bigger your arc and the better your tracking.

I was never suggesting that you intentionally ram the FDL. Silly rabbit. I was explaining that if you get rammed by someone else, you're screwed.




See above for heat issues. Compared to the Python, it has serious heat issues. The Python can be made to run cool with a single mod to the PP. The FDL requires you to mod all over the place to stay cool. And by cool I mean cool enough that you won't be a magnet for gimbal weapons. Which is well below the point where you are taking heat damage. Gimbal damage is much more deadly in any case. And if you are hot, you're going to get nailed from far away making your attempts to show a small hit box rather pointless.

Yes all combat ships have high shields and low armor. This is the general balance of the game. The OP was comparing the high shields of the FDL, but ignoring the equally high Armor of the other ships he was comparing it to. The Python can easily have 2 or 3 times the armor of the FDL. And after the next patch, it will have module protecting armor slots for unkillable drives, PP, and Weapons.

I am not missing the positives, I am responding to a challenge from some silly person who claimed that the FDL didn't have any downsides. Please read the context

My FDL has a pair of rail guns on the nose. Heating isn't that bad. I can fire those things twice in fairly rapid succession and barely hit 101 on the heat meter. I simply wait a second or so before firing with the pulse lasers again. High DPS builds are going to produce heat. Doesn't matter what ship it is. It is the price you have to pay. You have to make your shots count, there has to be a drawback somewhere, as balancing trade offs are what this entire game is built upon. I know that the FDL has its drawbacks, don't twist my words (or anyone else's). Also, ballistic gimbal weapons never seem to track as well as their thermal counterparts, doesn't matter what size or ship. I have seen this on all of the ships I have flown, from the adder and cobra, all the way up to the Asp X, python, and the FDL.

- - - Updated - - -

Argument A: The FDL is supposed to be an amazing combat ship! All other ships should bow to it!
Response: And the Corvette is supposed to be the ULTIMATE combat ship. All other ships would wither and die once they see it like a tomato in the sun. But that's not how it works currently.

Argument B: You don't *have* to use it! The FAS/FGS/Clipper/Courier/Vulture/Python/Corvette/Cutter still exist!
Response: But the FDL is the ultimate combat ship. It has zero downsides to it beyond the usual FDev stupidity like jump range and utility on the inside. And those don't matter once you're in a combat scenario.

Solutions:

A: Add utility mounts to the other ships, four has now been proven to be too weak in comparison to the FDL. Improve the FDL's jump range and give it more internal space to compensate.
B: Nerf the FDL back down to where it was. Reduced power plant, reduced thruster strength, and reduced cooling efficiency.
C: Nerf the FDL by removing two utility slots, and give it additional internal space.
D: Maybe think about introducing MORE SHIPS to COMPETE with the FDL.

Not really what anyone or the OP is saying. The FDL is one of the best combat ships sure, but it does pay for it in plenty of other ways. The jump range without engineer mods is horrible, the fuel tank is tiny, and the internal slots are extremely limited. It is built for combat, but as a result, it can't do anything else.

There are ways to have other ships give an FDL a hard time. The Vulture is capable of turning circles around it, a properly engineered python is easily a match for it, and a Corvette/cutter/conda with SLFs would likely be able to give it a little too much to shoot at while bringing a superior amount of firepower.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

Bought'd.

Screenshot of my new baby below:

 

[Odan Brota]

My FDL has a pair of rail guns on the nose. Heating isn't that bad. I can fire those things twice in fairly rapid succession and barely hit 101 on the heat meter. I simply wait a second or so before firing with the pulse lasers again. High DPS builds are going to produce heat. Doesn't matter what ship it is. It is the price you have to pay. You have to make your shots count, there has to be a drawback somewhere, as balancing trade offs are what this entire game is built upon. I know that the FDL has its drawbacks, don't twist my words (or anyone else's). Also, ballistic gimbal weapons never seem to track as well as their thermal counterparts, doesn't matter what size or ship. I have seen this on all of the ships I have flown, from the adder and cobra, all the way up to the Asp X, python, and the FDL.

- - - Updated - - -



Not really what anyone or the OP is saying. The FDL is one of the best combat ships sure, but it does pay for it in plenty of other ways. The jump range without engineer mods is horrible, the fuel tank is tiny, and the internal slots are extremely limited. It is built for combat, but as a result, it can't do anything else.

There are ways to have other ships give an FDL a hard time. The Vulture is capable of turning circles around it, a properly engineered python is easily a match for it, and a Corvette/cutter/conda with SLFs would likely be able to give it a little too much to shoot at while bringing a superior amount of firepower.

Superior amount of firepower? Really? Turrets are like blowing bubbles at an opponent, and are defeated by chaff (and the FDL can afford chaff launchers easily). Gimballed weapons are good, but they must be brought to bear, and if the FDL is not using it's extremely superior agility to keep out of the nose firing arc, that says a lot about the FDL pilot. Anyone who flies a Cutter/Corvette/Anaconda as a primary ship will let you know that the firepower is superior on paper, but in practice the difference is very small.

besides, now that PAs are set to ignore shield resistances, the FDL just got another massive buff. 4x C2 PA with 1x C4 multicannon anyone? Enough utility slots to have all the heat sinks you could ever need, AND keep your excessive shielding? Perfect hardpoint placement? Power plant for days? Heat dissipation to handle it all? Speed, agility, and a capacitor to fuel everything you want to do?

At this point just give the FDL a decent jump range and don't bother to fly anything else.

 

[thorn-]

So? do you not use ships with an offset view at all?

Since you asked - no.

 

[Elpapo]

4x C2 PA with 1x C4 multicannon anyone?

It will be "massive buff" against bulky big ships, but good luck hitting well-flown Couriers or Eagles with PA shots while they slowly eats away shields, hull or both at same time.

 

[thirstyfish]

Superior amount of firepower? Really? Turrets are like blowing bubbles at an opponent, and are defeated by chaff (and the FDL can afford chaff launchers easily). Gimballed weapons are good, but they must be brought to bear, and if the FDL is not using it's extremely superior agility to keep out of the nose firing arc, that says a lot about the FDL pilot. Anyone who flies a Cutter/Corvette/Anaconda as a primary ship will let you know that the firepower is superior on paper, but in practice the difference is very small.

besides, now that PAs are set to ignore shield resistances, the FDL just got another massive buff. 4x C2 PA with 1x C4 multicannon anyone? Enough utility slots to have all the heat sinks you could ever need, AND keep your excessive shielding? Perfect hardpoint placement? Power plant for days? Heat dissipation to handle it all? Speed, agility, and a capacitor to fuel everything you want to do?

At this point just give the FDL a decent jump range and don't bother to fly anything else.

A single mistake on the FDL's part, and it is easy to end up in front of the nose of any of those larger ships. If those ships have engineer mods, then that mistake doesn't have to be a big one either. The SLF can be quite a threat as well. Any pilot would be remiss to ignore it.

 

[Truesilver]

Ok, so the vulture has a second seat. My overall point still stands. The FDS family has its fair share of drawbacks, and refusing to use a ship because you don't like how it looks is rather foolish.

Until I got VR I would have agreed with you 100%. Now the cockpit of the ship has a significance to me I never imagined.

Actually, I still agree with you. But the Rift has given me quite a new take on things!

A single mistake on the FDL's part, and it is easy to end up in front of the nose of any of those larger ships.

The problem with this is: why should the FdL pilot even care? Fully RNGineered and with 4 pips to shields, he can have about 8,500 effective Mj in his base shield.

The large ship will struggle to put out more than 150 to 200 DPS. Until FDev restore some damage v hit points sanity to apex PvP, the FdL guy can literally face-tank the Corvette guy for days.

 

[thirstyfish]

Until I got VR I would have agreed with you 100%. Now the cockpit of the ship has a significance to me I never imagined.

Actually, I still agree with you. But the Rift has given me quite a new take on things!



The problem with this is: why should the FdL pilot even care? Fully RNGineered and with 4 pips to shields, he can have about 8,500 effective Mj in his base shield.

The large ship will struggle to put out more than 150 to 200 DPS. Until FDev restore some damage v hit points sanity to apex PvP, the FdL guy can literally face-tank the Corvette guy for days.

the catch is that with 4 pips to sys means having only 2 pips into either engines or weapons, thus making damage output and/or maneuvering harder.

 

[Truesilver]

the catch is that with 4 pips to sys means having only 2 pips into either engines or weapons, thus making damage output and/or maneuvering harder.

Sadly that's not a catch, just normality. The other ship will have 4 pips in sys too, assuming both to be apex PvP-ers. We fly with 4 pips to sys over 90% of the time because the exponential curve on sys resistance, plus the game's flight model which enables us to stay on target with 0 pips to eng, plus the availability of very low Draw high DPH weapons, makes any other tactic grossly sub-optimal.

 

[thirstyfish]

Sadly that's not a catch, just normality. The other ship will have 4 pips in sys too, assuming both to be apex PvP-ers. We fly with 4 pips to sys over 90% of the time because the exponential curve on sys resistance, plus the game's flight model which enables us to stay on target with 0 pips to eng, plus the availability of very low Draw high DPH weapons, makes any other tactic grossly sub-optimal.

I guess that goes to show that I am really a PvE guy. Most combat situations against the AI and you will see me with 3 pips to eng and weaps

 

[Truesilver]

I guess that goes to show that I am really a PvE guy. Most combat situations against the AI and you will see me with 3 pips to eng and weaps

Yes, as others have said in other threads, what is really needed is for FDev to give PvE guys the opportunity (optional) to fight fully RNGineered Cmdr-type-loadout Elite AI (like, uber-assassination missions for uber-rewards).

This would not only be fun, it would help to break down the PvP / PvE divide when we have discussions like this thread, because we'd all have access to an experience that, though not identical, would at least be more similar.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

I think you're confusing acceleration with agility.

You're right. What I meant was that its acceleration and lateral/vertical thruster acceleration can make up for the lack of agility to some extent if flown accordingly.

I have tested this very thoroughly. The fully upgraded Viper agility is nice compared to an unmodded A rated Eagle, but it can't really hold up in the turns, outside of PVE. It certainly can't maintain a flanking position, and this is something both the FDL and the Vulture are capable of! It's a bit silly. What is the point of flying a small glass peashooter if it can't at least outmaneuver bigger tankier, faster, and deadlier ships?

Well - that was what I was getting at. The pre-buff FDL was less agile and required good use of thrusters and boost to make it shine and I enjoyed that (the only ship I regularly triggered a red-out in).
I considered the Vultures manoeuvrability completely unbalanced compared to the smaller fighters since it was introduced. Both, the Vulture and the post-buff FDL feel unchallenging, and therefore unrewarding to fly and I don't fly them as a result, but I understand the sloution isn't quite as simple when playing in open.