2.1 holding the game back?

Since 2.1 it just seems like a lot of time is being wasted on the balancing issues caused by engineers and base game players were put at such a disadvantage at such an early stage adds to the balance nightmare. Engineers should of been a season all into itself not some rushed thrown together time sink. I just want to see an update that is fleshed out I guess not some misguided half done time sinks and gimmicks. All the little quality of life stuff has been better than the main features IMHO. What else could they of got done without the engineers?

What I think is most indicative is that unlike the usual vehement schism the playerbase here generally develops, most players from all sides of the spectrum have said we'd like to either roll back 2.1 until implemented properly or permanently.

There are of course a few objections but the player base has been surprisingly united in saying that the game would be a better place without it.

I'd be loath to annihilate all the work I put so much time into and just lose my mods, but I'd accept it if it means trying a new loadout takes 30 mins again instead of my entire weekend and then some. It's not that the concept was awful to start with but implementation was shockingly poorly thought out. It's simply required for so much of the game and simply DOES drain the time and life out of you.

I never, ever, ever thought I would agree to purchasable mods/mats being agreeable...or draggy sliders, where you pick what your mod rolls and the offset is adjusted accordingly...but this much time on - and still no solution to the timesink it brings - and I just have to throw my hands in the air and say it'd be better than this.

'twas well put by some chap here that described the game post-2.1 as "when I log on, I now have to choose whether to engineer my ships or enjoy playing the game".
 
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I like Engineers because I want to customize my ship, choose your own path, right? And without the mods PvP is useless. But it's an absolute grindy nightmare of chance and I'd rather grind my time doing other things. That said, why cant we just have thousands of different modules for sale in the outfitting shop? For example, there should many different varieties of FSD's at different prices for you to choose from; one gives you more distance, another charges quicker but doesn't go as far, one uses less fuel at the expense of distance and charge, the really expensive one gives you a buff of all FSD traits, and so on and so on....I'd much rather spend my time and credits in the outfitting shop trying out different things than being sent on endless goose chases so I can roll some dice and get hosed over.

Surely having RNG generated modules for sale just moves the problem from Engineers bases to every outfitting base?

If you want the best equipment, the odds are stacked against you either way. If you are happy with good enough, right now you can get that with just a few rolls of the dice, if you want the best you have to work for it & I think that's no bad thing.

I guess you just want to be able to skip the work you don't like & just buy the best gear with funds from the activities you enjoy. I can understand that viewpoint & engineers do sell a few specialised modules like the small thrusters & corrosion resistant cargo racks (CRCR).
 
I guess you just want to be able to skip the work you don't like & just buy the best gear with funds from the activities you enjoy. I can understand that viewpoint & engineers do sell a few specialised modules like the small thrusters & corrosion resistant cargo racks (CRCR).

If anyone had put me down for supporting a change that promotes insta-gratification I would have told them that it won't happen, or I would eat several large hats.

And here I am thinking on some level it needs to happen. For now if nothing.

In my eyes the issue it had was just the bizarre layering of RNG-based and timesink-based work. Heavily RNG based obtaining of the one hundred and thirty nine different components so that you can make a roll of an RNG-based modification that is NOT based on sidegrades but direct upgrades, and an additional RNG based magic random stat changer on the side.

Some of that has just gotta be looked at.
 
I think the problem with Engineers is the sheer magnitude of the modification effects coupled with stacking secondary effects and (in the case of weapons) absolutely game-changing mechanics.

In Open play, if you're encountering a similar skill opponent, the player with 50% higher DPS, 500% tougher shields, 50% faster ship with 100% more boost time and 50% more agility is going to wipe the floor with you EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

That means you absolutely cannot survive in Open if your opponent has engineered a PVP meta unless you have also engineered the counter-meta. In reality that means is that everyone is forced to choose between

  • having an interesting loadout for their desired gameplay style
  • surviving a PVP encounter.
The two are mutually exclusive unless your primary gameplay style happens to be "player PVP" :(
 
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I think the problem with Engineers is the sheer magnitude of the modification effects coupled with stacking secondary effects and (in the case of weapons) absolutely game-changing mechanics.

In Open play, if you're encountering a similar skill opponent, the player with 50% higher DPS, 500% tougher shields, 50% faster ship with 100% more boost time and 50% more agility is going to wipe the floor with you EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

That means you absolutely cannot survive in Open if your opponent has engineered a PVP meta unless you have also engineered the counter-meta. In reality that means is that everyone is forced to choose between

  • having an interesting loadout for their desired gameplay style
  • surviving a PVP encounter.
The two are mutually exclusive unless your primary gameplay style happens to be "player PVP" :(

From my experience in Open, I think you are right. If I engineer my ship for maximum jump distance, somewhere I sacrifice weaponry to keep down the weight. I know lighter weight of weapons is possible with engineers, but then I sacrifice their punch. If I go for better defensive protection, I am adding to weight and my jump distance comes down. So I end up getting melted in Open :(
 
The two are mutually exclusive unless your primary gameplay style happens to be "player PVP" :(

The same setups I seek out PvP encounters with can be readily converted to other tasks with minimal difficulty and will still be more than sufficient to survive PvP encounters. In some cases, there isn't any difference at all. I don't need to change anything on my PvP loadouts to annihilate legions of NPCs in PvE combat.

The only ships I have to alter significantly from their PvP configs, in general, are exploration vessels...and once I get out there, the odds of encountering hostiles are pretty slim.
 
The same setups I seek out PvP encounters with can be readily converted to other tasks with minimal difficulty and will still be more than sufficient to survive PvP encounters. In some cases, there isn't any difference at all. I don't need to change anything on my PvP loadouts to annihilate legions of NPCs in PvE combat.

The only ships I have to alter significantly from their PvP configs, in general, are exploration vessels...and once I get out there, the odds of encountering hostiles are pretty slim.

That's so not true though.

  • Mining - can't stock up on SCB's because you need the slots for refinery, collectors and cargo bays.
  • Exploring - you've covered that already, combat stuff is heavy and tough whilst exploring stuff is light and fragile.
  • Mission loadouts - anything other than the big three can't afford to fit dumbfires or SCV bays without compromising their PVP survival
  • Trading - again, max cargo means minimal internal bays for toughness and survivability options.
  • PAX - wasting passenger space and sacrificing jumprange to counter the heat meta, RC torp meta, Grom meta - whilst guaranteeing no hull damage to avoid mission failure?
  • Rares - say goodbye to your jumprange with all the heavy defensive options. Rare trading is much like exploring with a little cargo.


Just because you can mine/explore/base-assault/trade/PAX/rare-run in a PVP loadout doesn't mean that you're not compromising your potential solely to deal with PVP meta defences.

I - like you by the sounds of it - tend to only leave a dock in Open if I am happy that I can survive or at least flee from a G5-engineered PVP meta build. As sensible as that is, it severly cramps my options for smaller ships. The Python and the big three are probably the only ships that can accommodate sensible anti-meta defenses without giving up something that would quantifiably be important to their primary role. A lot of the anti-meta, anti-engineering specials are responsible for the increased defensive loadouts and without them, your comment that minimal changes to a build are required would be valid, IMO.
 
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That's so not true though.

  • Mining - can't stock up on SCB's because you need the slots for refinery, collectors and cargo bays.
  • Exploring - you've covered that already, combat stuff is heavy and tough whilst exploring stuff is light and fragile.
  • Mission loadouts - anything other than the big three can't afford to fit dumbfires or SCV bays without compromising their PVP survival
  • Trading - again, max cargo means minimal internal bays for toughness and survivability options.
  • PAX - wasting passenger space and sacrificing jumprange to counter the heat meta, RC torp meta, Grom meta - whilst guaranteeing no hull damage to avoid mission failure?
  • Rares - say goodbye to your jumprange with all the heavy defensive options. Rare trading is much like exploring with a little cargo.


Just because you can mine/explore/base-assault/trade/PAX/rare-run in a PVP loadout doesn't mean that you're not compromising your potential solely to deal with PVP meta defences.

I - like you by the sounds of it - tend to only leave a dock in Open if I am happy that I can survive or at least flee from a G5-engineered PVP meta build. As sensible as that is, it severly cramps my options for smaller ships. The Python and the big three are probably the only ships that can accommodate sensible anti-meta defenses without giving up something that would quantifiably be important to their primary role. A lot of the anti-meta, anti-engineering specials are responsible for the increased defensive loadouts and without them, your comment that minimal changes to a build are required would be valid, IMO.

The module swap-out that you & Morbad describe is why I feel that Defensive modules (SCBs, SBs hull & module reinforcements etc) are the root cause of the issue, rather than Engineers in particular.

Without these defensive modules a PvP ship just has a bunch of spare slots & a little less weight, and is otherwise as competitive as a PvE loadout.
 
The module swap-out that you & Morbad describe is why I feel that Defensive modules (SCBs, SBs hull & module reinforcements etc) are the root cause of the issue, rather than Engineers in particular.

Without these defensive modules a PvP ship just has a bunch of spare slots & a little less weight, and is otherwise as competitive as a PvE loadout.

It's chicken-and-egg, isn't it? We need to add these defensive/heavy-duty/reinforced/bay-and-slot-hogging things to our PVE loadouts solely because without them you can be rapidly destroyed by a PVP meta you've failed to account for. They add weight which affects jump range and that's a pretty serious QoL issue if you're doing rares/PAX/exploring. They use up utility modules if you're BH/REZ/CZ that could be better spent on PVE. The MRPs and SCBs take up valuable bays if you're trading/PAX/mining and you may have to sacrifice that fighter/SRV bay/AFMU/scanner/interdictor that means hiking back to a dock to fit one if you need it for a mission.

  • Engineered weapons (grom and PS lasers) can disable low-integrity modules through shields, so you need MRPs to counter.
  • RC torps can one-shot a massive shield so you need EMPs to counter.
  • Hull tanking is still not viable (because of HY cannons and scramble spectrum) so you need SCB's and boosters to counter.
  • The heat meta is still a real issue so you can't do proper PVP without heatsinks to counter.

All these counters are required to adequately defend against engineered weapon effects.
Half of the problems with 2.1 game balance would go away if the experimental effects were taken out of the game. That's how I feel at any rate....
 
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Half of the problems with 2.1 game balance would go away if the experimental effects were taken out of the game. That's how I feel at any rate....

I agree that the special effects are OP & step too far, but I can understand the appeal & they do add gameplay variety.

With Engineers a loadout can be given a shield optimised to defend against a particular rock/paper/scissors loadout, and while you don't know what you will come up against, your opponent doesn't know what your shield is best at either, I think this is good gameplay with a bit of depth & bluff.

If defensive & offensive buffs were able to be equally applied to a PvE or PvP loadout (ie everyone has shields & guns, no-one has to give up PvE modules) then it's less of a dilemma (I like dilemmas) but it would remove the 'ganker' loadout, and return the game to a position where skill and/or bravery are the deciding factors, ship for ship.

I feel this wide gap between a PvP hunter & the PvE loadout prey is a primary reason why Open has the reputation it currently has (gankers paradise), and why PvE groups are so popular. Sure there are lots of players who will only ever want to PvE, but there are probably quite a few who would be happy with a little risk in Open, just not the 'run or die' boredom massive risk.
 
I do feel engineers kinda broke the game. Before, it was a level playing field, now, it's about who was willing to grind for the most overpowered build. Plus, certain builds are overpowered so, everybody is forced to use them. Don't get me wrong. I've engineered all my ships, most to level 5, and unlocked every engineer except Jameson. I even kinda had fun doing it. I tried mining and combat zones, things I hadn't done before. But everything was tied to supporting engineers; surface data points, missions, signal sources, etc., all of it exists mainly to support engineers. The problem with this is, once you've engineered everything, there's nothing else to do. You're literally right back where you started and if you aren't engineering anything, there's no point in doing ANY of those activities. I would have preferred a much more limited engineer experience and more stuff to do. Plus, there's the added problem with the way it was deliberately tied to horizons, by making engineers planet based, effectively turning us into haves and have nots. Even after all the engineering I've done, I'd be fine if FD lost all the specials and RNG, nerfed the increases to +5% per grade (just make everything set values), and auto upgraded everyone to engineers (PS4 includes it anyway, so why not?).
 
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Im not spending any more money on ED until something is done about the engineers. Preferably complete removal. Play the basic game, once had horizons and a few engineers mods. Saw what the game might be without the engineers and I wont spend another penny on ED until the engineers is dealt with.

Huh. Well I like Engineers and think it is a cool concept - implementation could use some adjusting.
 
I - like you by the sounds of it - tend to only leave a dock in Open if I am happy that I can survive or at least flee from a G5-engineered PVP meta build. As sensible as that is, it severly cramps my options for smaller ships. The Python and the big three are probably the only ships that can accommodate sensible anti-meta defenses without giving up something that would quantifiably be important to their primary role. A lot of the anti-meta, anti-engineering specials are responsible for the increased defensive loadouts and without them, your comment that minimal changes to a build are required would be valid, IMO.

The only thing a ship needs to have a good shot at survival is good thrusters and a handful of reasonable countermeasures. If you don't want to get shot down, you aren't going to get shot down in a fast ship with a single heatsink launcher (yes, emissive is a thing, but nine times in ten, you can be cold enough to be unresolvable a few seconds after submitting to an interdiction, or noticing a sensor contact).

Those internal defensive measures aren't necessary unless you decide to stick around and fight, or happen to be in a crap-tier trade vessel that should never be taken to a heavily populated area (and you still can, if you are willing to sacrifice some cargo room).

  • Engineered weapons (grom and PS lasers) can disable low-integrity modules through shields, so you need MRPs to counter.
  • RC torps can one-shot a massive shield so you need EMPs to counter.
  • Hull tanking is still not viable (because of HY cannons and scramble spectrum) so you need SCB's and boosters to counter.
  • The heat meta is still a real issue so you can't do proper PVP without heatsinks to counter.

Nothing damages modules through shields, except heat, and integrity is irrelevant to the effects that cause drive/FSD reboots. Phasing cannot damage modules though shields.

Thermal cascade on cannons is the only significant heat dump effect and can be countered in the short term quite easily with a few heatsinks, and in the longer term by stronger integrity modules.

Reverberating cascade is extremely difficult to use against fast ships, and takes more than a "one-shot" against anything with a sizable shield generator, especially one that had had it's integrity augmented, ether via thermal/kinetic resistance, or a random secondary effect.

Scramble is potent, but overrated. It can only affect one random subsystem at a time and has a hard cool down. Pulse disruptors are somewhat more useful against fleeing targets because they can disable specific subs, but have to actually strike and damage the module in question.

I feel this wide gap between a PvP hunter & the PvE loadout prey is a primary reason why Open has the reputation it currently has (gankers paradise), and why PvE groups are so popular. Sure there are lots of players who will only ever want to PvE, but there are probably quite a few who would be happy with a little risk in Open, just not the 'run or die' boredom massive risk.

I feel that PvE leaves players woefully unprepared for the possibilities of what CMDRs can bring to bear against them and that more difficult NPCs, both in tactics and loadout, are necessary.

This has always been the case, and Engineers has only modestly exacerbated things. I distinctly remember a PvE wing, new to Open apparently, that interdicted me at a CG because I was wanted:

I was alone, in my daily driver FDL. They had a wing of three; one FDL and two Vultures. In the same encounter/instance, I shot down both Vulture CMDRs twice each (this was near the starport and they lauched to rejoin the fray), and the FDL once, before being the last one standing. This was well before engineers and they all had significant combat rank...they simply had never faced a PvP veteran in a pure PvP apex combat vessel before. Less moronic NPCs could easily have prepared them better.
 
I feel that PvE leaves players woefully unprepared for the possibilities of what CMDRs can bring to bear against them and that more difficult NPCs, both in tactics and loadout, are necessary.

Be proud of your skill & bravery, rather than bitter that others aren't as good as you. I'm sure they learned some important lessons ;) The game needs to cater to quite a wide audience, changing the NPCs has as many downsides as upsides for the playerbase and ime are no substitute for experience against other players. You can't talk to an NPC, you can't out-think their magic either.

If what you describe as an 'apex combat vessel' were just a PvE ship with empty slots (cheaper rebuy, less weight) then I think spontaneous PvP would be more fun & the fight would be more about skill than loadout. More exposure to 'lite-PvP' would improve the breed far more than tougher practice drones.

As I described in an earlier post, for Solo & Co-op gameplay really aren't degraded by engineered modules, or indeed any of the hitpoint buffing modules, nor is organised PvP. It's only freeform PvP that has suffered, so I think it makes sense that any solution addresses freeform PvP without adversely affecting the gameplay of those that don't do that.

The Engineers (as a game mechanism) is capable of allowing buffs to both shields & armour without requiring the use of extra module slots. This would allow any Cmdr to fully equip their ship for both PvP (via upgraded modules instead of extra ones) and PvE for gathering materials, earning money etc. Any optimisation towards toughness or DPS would be balanced by mass (reduced manoeuvrability, speed & jump range), and you can only kill what you can catch :)

With the best will in the world, I think that if your solution involves trying to change human nature it's doomed to fail.
 
2.1 was an interesting idea, but the introduction of Engineers didn't seem to have any defined goal:
  • If their goal was 'create more gameplay content for the players!' then they could've easily spent the same amount of time creating far more entertaining content than 'grind for XX materials/whatever in order to upgrade your kit'
  • If their goal was 'add more diversity and complexity to the ship loadouts and combat!' then they could have done what every game for the last two decades has done and just either (i) add more options for purchase through the markets or (ii) add player crafting/production mechanics

What was the point of Engineers? Was it about adding more options for upgrading your ship? Was it about introducing new content for players to spend time doing? What it turned out to be was an incredibly ineffective way of introducing both those things.
Frontier would have been far better spending their time fleshing out the (still) incredibly barebones missions, in order to add a real depth of gameplay to the game, or spending their time adding a wider variety of ship options/upgrades to the markets (or a player crafting system). In fact given the very convoluted nature of the engineers system, and the amount of content they had to add for it, they probably could've both added better missions and added more options for ship upgrades.
 
Engineering adds a ton of value to the game for people who enjoy tinkering with their ships. Anybody who doesn't enjoy it is free to ignore it without penalty. It's a complete system that doesn't require any more dev attention paid to it. Everybody wins.

The only problem is Frontier having been convinced that it's a good idea to chase the mythical unicorn that is competitive balance in an MMO with a progression system. Once they go back to thinking like people developing an immersive space sim MMO (for suitably small values of "sim") rather than Quake Duel it will be fine.

Agreed... But:-
1) It's been implemented in a mindless grade 5 upgrade is king mentality. ie: Instead of balancing upgrades such that given the right scenario, a grade 1-3 upgrade might be a better choice for your ship than a grade 5, it's been quiestionably designed so grades 1-4 are little more than stepping stones to the defacto grade 5 one.
2) The side effects are a balancing nightmare. Surely it would have been far better to have limited their use such as having a utility device to apply to one or more weapons.
3) As for "free to ignore", that's easier said than done. Who doesn't want the longer jump ranges to save time? And who doesn't want the other improvements to make their ships more effective in combat? I'd say most CMDRs would want these improvements and it comes down to how unpallatable they find the requirements to level up with the Engineers.

Ultimately I think the upgrades could have been far better balanced so *shock horror* grade 5 wasn't generally the defacto (mindless) choice. And I think the side effects could have been more subtle/tactical. Overall The Engineers could have been implemented in a far more subtle way causing far less of a balancing nightmare, which TBH has caused serious issues with the game...
 
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Some proposals to balance pass Engineers.

1. Access gates to be reviewed - why 50 kamitra cigars? That is saying we expect you to sit at a station and wait until you have collected the max allowance of rare you can get and then travel to me and then repeat that 4-5 times. A more Challenging scenario is that you must supply me with 4 types of rare, collect from stations at least 150ly from my base and return whilst a gamut of pirates who have "heard the rumours" chase you all the way here. Why 200 tonnes of gold, why not 5 tons of each rare metal collected from a specific station which again is a distance away and you are then hounded by pirates. The task is difficult and challenging but not bloody boring!

2. Eliminate special effects. These take calculable benefits and add in a range of side effects that really mean balancing has little or no chance. You selected large magazine, you get a large magazine, not a large magazine with corrosive shots. I would move these special effects to become specific modifications and maybe lock the higher tier grades behind 2 or 3 engineers or if they can't be graded then they do not belong in the game.

3. Limit maximum benefit of engineer mod to 25% This is what you can get with rechargeable synthesis, the benefit is that you get this buff permanently but after some more data and material collection than what the one shot in ship synthesis will bring. This I think is also key to balancing, as a 25% buff assists a pilot, but doesn't necessarily engage god mode. Coupled with no longer having special effects means FDev have the ability to be able to balance mods without finding out that whatever they do the Frankenstein collection that players are able to roll up will not break gameplay experience.

4. Have all benefits attract a drawback, the further you push power the higher you push heat, or the further you push DPS the further you push power draw. You shouldn't have to contend with twerps sitting at Engineers rolling 59 times to get the sweet roll of max good and minimum drawbacks. The penalties for having a great enhancement should always mean players should have to consider the impact of their decision. This makes balancing attempts pointless as you have to take into account these extremes. Change the extremes to manageable ranges and a majority of OP god play will dry up.

5. Shield boosters, have them only affect resistance and limit to x per ship (maybe dedicated shield slots) this way you have known max shield values and known max shield resistances that you can cater the DPS of known weapons against these, it should also mean you can say buff cannons base damage by a figure and know the outcome of change across all permutations of engineering.

6. This is more a behind the scenes point. Use the 'Big Data' you have on players ships and load outs - as it's all stored against the player and look for extremes in DPS, shield etc and then model against that. More importantly, look at the average engineered FDL, Anaconda etc and then review changes on these builds, copy the configs and get Q&A to blast each other with these builds pre and post proposed change.

7. Review consequence of actions by player, if they get all cosy with Felicity Fraser then they get locked out of Selene, or Palin or whatever, so the route to maxing out all items on a ship will never happen, so you don't have to try and cater for God mode ships built by twerps who live at engineer bases rolling for the next mod.

8. Never ever, ever return commodities that cannot be bought to engineer recipes/blueprints. Players have a chance from using in game data on best places to get technetium or datamined wake exceptions through diligence, hard work or grind. Having a random mission reward be a critical part of a modification is just poking your players in the eye for the fun of it. If they return they are purchasable at stations and cost the values shown currently, ie. not items only the uber rich players can afford.

9. Do a mini interim Beta with the above just let players see it's not all doom and gloom. Engineered ships can still be feared, but 45 min battles between them are a thing of the past as well as Eng vs non Eng encounters can be more survivable.

TL;DR hack and slash at its fundamentals and don't introduce extremes.

FD hire this guy... that is all +1 rep from me o7
 
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2.1 had many good points but they've been submerged by the RNGineers; (station ATC, improved surface graphics on land-able planets, etc.) The concept of Engineers is excellent but the implementation is awful. The are not Engineers they are fantasy magicians. There is no place in an SF game such as Elite for this sort of crafting fantasy mechanic, which has introduced enormous dissension and balance / rebalance issues. Even though it is a game, I can imagine no scenario in a future extrapolated from the present where such a silly process could occur. How they will fit in to the lore and roleplay is barely imaginable. A brief check of most of the role-players stories seem to indicate most are ignoring them. A barter system using materials is just not believable. I look forward to how Drew Wagar's new book will deal with them.

A brief analysis of the forums seems to indicate they have introduced more contention, balance issues than any other update; and there has been very little comment or justification from FD for this implausible mechanic. The sub forum Engineers has (as of writing) 104 pages, 3.6 k threads, 60 k posts and there are just 12 FD posts that I could find, all dealing with minor issues.

There seems to be a faction within FD which has pushed through this fantasy crafting system despite DB’s statements on science and the original launch statement of “play your way” with very little, if any, justification. And they seem intent on hanging on to it despite the balance and dissension issues it has introduced since there has been very little comment from FD on it.

In DB’s recent interview at PAX when he mentioned one of the Engineers (Palin), I thought he sounded a bit embarrassed, but It may be just wishful thinking on my part.
 
I think hit or miss your target during fight should always be in the pilots hands. Unfortunately with introducing chaff, silent running, cool running and certain weapon effects there are so many ways to confuse targetting that in some cases you can just give it up if you are not sitting in a very special fitted vessel to face this task. That feels a bit sad to me. :O
 
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