Orchids, Onionhead-- it's all the same. Oh look over here! (does finger wiggly thing way up in the air)
2.3 dev update feedback mega thread
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Orchids, Onionhead-- it's all the same. Oh look over here! (does finger wiggly thing way up in the air)
I too would like to see new ships, but am a bit concerned by instantaneous teleportation to a friends ship. If I can teleport from here to Colonia just because I know someone, then why even have spaceships at all. If I can telport why cant we just teleport stuff from place to place? No need for anything space related.
I was hoping for a dedicated nav station,more tools and such.
Other than that i'm pretty hyped about multi crew now [up]
Other than that i'm pretty hyped about multi crew now [up]
I'd started a thread for questions...it hasn't been closed for the mega thread, yet, but I wanted to put the questions I had here since this is where FDev will be browsing for feedback.
Is this a multi-thread merge or do I have to type all my gripes back in again?
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I agree that it is somewhat disappointing that it is mostly focused on combat, but I'm not sure there's THAT much they could do to make multicrew exploration more rewarding. That said, just because it's mostly combat-oriented for now doesn't necessarily mean expanding the multicrew mechanics in the future isn't on the table. I think it is likely that this mechanic will be iterated on, much like many, many others.
Please kill telepresence
Searching planets should become a whole lot easier and sociable with three people in a ship.
The pilot with their usual view through the windscreen.
The turret operator using a 'third person interface' with 'improved spatial awareness' and 'advanced sensor systems, allowing them three hundred and sixty degree tracking arcs'.
The SLF pilot flying patterns around the ship.
Those pesky alien ruins will have nowhere left to hide
Yeah, the turret controller / gunner especially. Having the external view, plus not having to focus on heading/altitude (plus the fact that most ships have terrible downwards visibility, and flying upside down on high-G worlds leads to overheating ) makes the gunner very handy for exploration. Do you actually need to have turrets fitted in order to have a 'gunner' on board?
How much is the stipend for fostering discussions around here? Given what I've seen pass as discussion, I'd have to think it quite high.
Assimilating Feedback: Resistance is futile. Persistence on the other hand...
With that said, I find it terribly difficult to discuss or debate a feature we really don't know all that much about yet, other than it is coming Soon™.
We have been told the Commander Creator is coming with it, but we have next to no details about it yet.
We have been told there is a new camera mode coming, but we have even fewer details about it yet.
Aside from my initial reaction - people will find ways to abuse this, I can't really offer much in the line of discussion, debate or suggestion, until more is actually revealed.
I do suspect this to be the first steps towards us also being able to take our first steps - being freed from the confines of our chairs, which I am also looking forward to seeing.
I can almost feel the sense of wonder and awe when we can raise our paraplegic customized commanders from their seats, walk through our ships, and take those first steps onto an alien world (with or without actual aliens on it). So much potential, so long to develop, test, debug, retest, rebug, re-retest, beta test, nerf, release, renerf, and all that jazz.
There should be no lore associated, as it is not really telepresence. One of the mods starting nodding their head about the word, but I really think that was a premature mistake. The remaining details really make it sound more like hand-wavium than telepresence.
For instance, it sounds like the camera view is going to show my avatar, plus my crew member's avatar, a situation which is not fully described by telepresence. The fighters don't "telepresence" you into artificially grown bodies, so obviously, it's not the same telepresence.
It's more like hand-wavium, where you just appear across the galaxy in your chosen avatar body, sitting beside your friend. So, in such a situation, you are deluding yourself if you insist on describing it as the same technology which describes SLF operation.
See, this is actually something explorers would WANT. Drop off a crewmate to explore an area while the ship goes off to check something else out on the other side of the planet. This is what bugs me in that focus on features tends to be overly limited.
Wouldn't you like to dismiss your main ship and just fly around in your fighter untethered? Again, lots of exploration possibilities there as you could have up to three teams exploring an area in different sectors, or even planets!
Even if you're thinking combat, I had hoped to be able to attack a ground base in my SRV and still have my fighter around for air support. Can't happen. Not yet, anyway.
If you're talking about abandoning an SRV as being abused to be douchey? Well, there's already tons of abuse potential with confirmed features as it is (crewmate opens fire on station as captain comes to dock comes to mind)
Worst case scenario, SRV self destructs, crewmate teleports back to ship just like he would in a normal scenario. Jerk captain is minus one SRV.
Not seeing the problem.
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I think 2.3 with MultiCrew is going be a big boon for multiplayer ability. I know for certain that those of us in Privateer's Alliance are excited for this particular feature for many aspects including the pretty easy to read Bounty Hunting. Exploration and the like also will be fun.
With the instant ability for pilots to join someone no matter where they are has to win over the immersion factor though. Gameplay for this type of feature should take priority. This is a Multi-Player game for one. Two it promotes the actual multiplayer aspect that is 2 out of 3 game modes for the game that FDev has given us. For groups that have formed that promote "Fly Together, Grow Together" type of aspects this is a big step towards making it truly viable on top of the instancing fixes that were implemented with the 2.2.3 patches as well.
Another big bonus of MC is the fact that the more experienced players that are flying ships capable of MC can actually HELP and TEACH newer players or struggling players with gaining a footing in the game. I know for people who have spent countless hours in the game and are sitting at hundreds of millions of credits sometimes now fail to see how it's hard to earn cash to remain on stable ground. They remember what it's like starting but some tend to forget just how much of a PITA it was when they started and struggled to make decent or massive amounts of credits on a single trade when you could only carry 2-4 tonnes at a time or only had a short jump range and were unable to go from one side of the bubble to the other in just a few jumps.
With the instant ability for pilots to join someone no matter where they are has to win over the immersion factor though. Gameplay for this type of feature should take priority. This is a Multi-Player game for one. Two it promotes the actual multiplayer aspect that is 2 out of 3 game modes for the game that FDev has given us. For groups that have formed that promote "Fly Together, Grow Together" type of aspects this is a big step towards making it truly viable on top of the instancing fixes that were implemented with the 2.2.3 patches as well.
Another big bonus of MC is the fact that the more experienced players that are flying ships capable of MC can actually HELP and TEACH newer players or struggling players with gaining a footing in the game. I know for people who have spent countless hours in the game and are sitting at hundreds of millions of credits sometimes now fail to see how it's hard to earn cash to remain on stable ground. They remember what it's like starting but some tend to forget just how much of a PITA it was when they started and struggled to make decent or massive amounts of credits on a single trade when you could only carry 2-4 tonnes at a time or only had a short jump range and were unable to go from one side of the bubble to the other in just a few jumps.
I'm also not entirely certain of how relevant this is. I'm mostly a fighter and a trader myself. Never touch mining or exploration. If FDev pushed out a big update to mining or exploration mechanics (something I never touch), I would say "Right on", not "Well this doesn't help me as a fighter so why even bother?"
Not necessarily responding to you in particular, I'm more or less responding to one of the general sentiments I seem to be seeing around here and using your post as a jumping-off point.
Is this a multi-thread merge or do I have to type all my gripes back in again?
Gotta get 'em back in again Mr Turner
Yeah, the turret controller / gunner especially. Having the external view, plus not having to focus on heading/altitude (plus the fact that most ships have terrible downwards visibility, and flying upside down on high-G worlds leads to overheating ) makes the gunner very handy for exploration. Do you actually need to have turrets fitted in order to have a 'gunner' on board?
I bet for exploration ships, the "gunner" will be the expedition photographer. Further if they could do directed scans, that would help speed up the scan of planets with many moons. I think there is also a lot of opportunity here for our excellent YouTubers
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In regards to instant Commander teleportation for Multicrews:
It's completely immersion breaking and destroys the unique grand sense of scale of the ED setting.
Players already need to meet up to do Wing activity together, and I don't see that being complained about as a chore to achieve; so why would meeting up to form a crew be any different practically?
I already play with my friends in Wings, and the same friends will be each other's multicrew too. We're already hanging out in the same volumes of space. This teleportation feature will be used by non-Winging players maybe only once or twice, as a complete gimmick, yet the damage to the setting's scale is already done. Those who want teleportation to support their mindless sugar-rush insta-combat gameplay (besides already having CQC/Arena), will be gone to the next flavour of the month game anyway in short order once bored again.
Magical insta-teleportation for crew utterly devalues the intangible (but magical) quality of feeling like you're really journeying in space with your friends.
I doubt the gaming press / media will ever again bother covering the "magic and wonder" of ED's huge Exploration voyages, since it won't exist anymore. The thing that was news-worthy and interesting was the journey, not the destination. So obvious!
Space Engine will be the go-to application for anyone wanting to explore the Galaxy using simple "console command" shortcuts.
Lots of people (probably the same people who chase fast-credit exploits), are screaming for instant-teleportation to make sugar-rush combat as easy as pressing a button, but have FD considered that the degradation of the scale of the setting will wipe away an element of the game that is difficult to pin down in terms of specific mechanics, namely the overall emotional feel of the game?
I fear FD are chasing a demographic with these arcade design choices, that has no interest in the setting, but rather are the sorts of players who only hang around for 5 minutes after an update anyway, before they go off to the next sugary buzz. The sort of player that is not interested in the journey, or exploring the depth that ED has to offer, but rather wants higher credits per hour so they can race to the "end" ship and hurriedly "beat" the game.
Basically the worry is that FD is chasing the money of arcade players who will simply be gone again after they've exhausted their initial novelty buzz of consuming new content, then leaving the core players of the game with a unsatisfying, stripped back, bland "ease of access" focused casual game.
Instant Teleportation is simply Instant Gratification.
Those who want Instant Gratification will not be gratified by the content after 3 or 4 goes of the ride, they will leave to find Instant Gratification from somewhere else.
When I play co-op we work together to navigate distances as a team, we travel across space for our gameplay purposes in concert. Managing our time and appreciating the scale of the setting is part of the tactical-strategic layer that we play in - having meaningful restrictions, limiters and tensions in our gameplay is GOOD as it demands creative thinking and more than just an arcade style point and click unthinking approach to play.
FD might think they're adding something and fulfilling demand in their community by "gifting" teleportation. Really they are risking diluting the specialness of the setting, and gutting a huge plank of emergent gameplay (resource management and situational awareness), by just catering to the "here one minute, gone the next" crowd, and not the loyal core of the community that loves ED for it's rich and vast scale.
Remember this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHg6lHvWdCw
The guy is blown away by the incredible sense of scale, his mind is seemingly blown.
Now imagine the reaction when he's now told "now you just use this console command button to magic yourself to anywhere you want instantly"... - I highly suspect that the awe of witnessing the Galaxy Map is inspired not just by the sheer number of possible destinations shown, BUT BY THE EVOCATIVE CONCEPT THAT ONE MUST ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY TRAVERSE THOSE INTERVENING VOLUMES OF SPACE TO REACH ONE OF THEM, and not "by magic", but by thought and consideration and by determination that really matters and is an actual achievement. NOT a laughable Playstation Trophy or an Xbox Achievement to tick off a damn list. BUT AN ACTUAL ACHIEVEMENT WITH FEELS AND STUFF!!
If instant teleportation is going to be a thing, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS SPECIAL IN ED limit it to only working within the Bubble, or within 100 or 50 LYs of each other.
Don't break the game's best most amazing Unique Selling Point (1:1 representation of the Milky Way) just for an arcade combat feature.
Please <3
It's completely immersion breaking and destroys the unique grand sense of scale of the ED setting.
Players already need to meet up to do Wing activity together, and I don't see that being complained about as a chore to achieve; so why would meeting up to form a crew be any different practically?
I already play with my friends in Wings, and the same friends will be each other's multicrew too. We're already hanging out in the same volumes of space. This teleportation feature will be used by non-Winging players maybe only once or twice, as a complete gimmick, yet the damage to the setting's scale is already done. Those who want teleportation to support their mindless sugar-rush insta-combat gameplay (besides already having CQC/Arena), will be gone to the next flavour of the month game anyway in short order once bored again.
Magical insta-teleportation for crew utterly devalues the intangible (but magical) quality of feeling like you're really journeying in space with your friends.
I doubt the gaming press / media will ever again bother covering the "magic and wonder" of ED's huge Exploration voyages, since it won't exist anymore. The thing that was news-worthy and interesting was the journey, not the destination. So obvious!
Space Engine will be the go-to application for anyone wanting to explore the Galaxy using simple "console command" shortcuts.
Lots of people (probably the same people who chase fast-credit exploits), are screaming for instant-teleportation to make sugar-rush combat as easy as pressing a button, but have FD considered that the degradation of the scale of the setting will wipe away an element of the game that is difficult to pin down in terms of specific mechanics, namely the overall emotional feel of the game?
I fear FD are chasing a demographic with these arcade design choices, that has no interest in the setting, but rather are the sorts of players who only hang around for 5 minutes after an update anyway, before they go off to the next sugary buzz. The sort of player that is not interested in the journey, or exploring the depth that ED has to offer, but rather wants higher credits per hour so they can race to the "end" ship and hurriedly "beat" the game.
Basically the worry is that FD is chasing the money of arcade players who will simply be gone again after they've exhausted their initial novelty buzz of consuming new content, then leaving the core players of the game with a unsatisfying, stripped back, bland "ease of access" focused casual game.
Instant Teleportation is simply Instant Gratification.
Those who want Instant Gratification will not be gratified by the content after 3 or 4 goes of the ride, they will leave to find Instant Gratification from somewhere else.
When I play co-op we work together to navigate distances as a team, we travel across space for our gameplay purposes in concert. Managing our time and appreciating the scale of the setting is part of the tactical-strategic layer that we play in - having meaningful restrictions, limiters and tensions in our gameplay is GOOD as it demands creative thinking and more than just an arcade style point and click unthinking approach to play.
FD might think they're adding something and fulfilling demand in their community by "gifting" teleportation. Really they are risking diluting the specialness of the setting, and gutting a huge plank of emergent gameplay (resource management and situational awareness), by just catering to the "here one minute, gone the next" crowd, and not the loyal core of the community that loves ED for it's rich and vast scale.
Remember this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHg6lHvWdCw
The guy is blown away by the incredible sense of scale, his mind is seemingly blown.
Now imagine the reaction when he's now told "now you just use this console command button to magic yourself to anywhere you want instantly"... - I highly suspect that the awe of witnessing the Galaxy Map is inspired not just by the sheer number of possible destinations shown, BUT BY THE EVOCATIVE CONCEPT THAT ONE MUST ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY TRAVERSE THOSE INTERVENING VOLUMES OF SPACE TO REACH ONE OF THEM, and not "by magic", but by thought and consideration and by determination that really matters and is an actual achievement. NOT a laughable Playstation Trophy or an Xbox Achievement to tick off a damn list. BUT AN ACTUAL ACHIEVEMENT WITH FEELS AND STUFF!!
If instant teleportation is going to be a thing, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS SPECIAL IN ED limit it to only working within the Bubble, or within 100 or 50 LYs of each other.
Don't break the game's best most amazing Unique Selling Point (1:1 representation of the Milky Way) just for an arcade combat feature.
Please <3
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Eh, you're right. Self-destructing SRV shouldn't be a feature because it occurred to me the person in the SRV could just log back into their main ship if they get abandoned. If it automatically self-destructed you wouldn't get the benefit of exploring multiple planets at once.
I am pretty sure I am not alone in wanting to multicrew with a friend when either of us is out in the dark. Be decent and dont demand other people cant meet their friends in-game because it breaks your immersion. There is no gameplay cost here to you, so here you really do have the option of just not using it. Noone will mind that, its up to you. There is no need to on other people's entertainment because you have some theoretical problem with them having fun.
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