200 credits bounty, 250M credits punishment

[GreyAreaUK]

...Mum?!

 

[war4peace]

@Ian Skippy it is not about how many mistakes one makes. Beginners do make mistakes, you know, it's human nature.
Alt-tabbing out of the game is of no relevance, because even if I wouldn't have had done that, I was misled by:

1. The station accepting my docking request
2. The cryptic "Anonymous access" message which appeared AFTER docking access being granted.
3. Station starting to shoot me AFTER I was inside it.
4. No attempt to enforce payment of the bounty prior to ship destruction.

I could kill another player without breaking any of those conditions.

Good for you.

I'm sorry OP, but what maybe you didn't know is that single "accidental" shot took a small child who was happily playing with their toys in their bedroom and caused significant damage to the settlement and put the life of everyone in that area at risk due to explosive decompression. You're a cold blooded murder and you needed to pay for your crime against humanity.

That's a ridiculous statement. All that hideous set of crimes is worth 200 credits? My oh my, life is really cheap in Elite Dangerous.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

My oh my, life is really cheap in Elite Dangerous.

Now you're beginning to understand!

But it won't bring back poor tiny Tim! Little Timmy, who was an orphan and couldn't use his legs! When the wall was destroyed, he couldn't even run from the room to avoid the decompression, his body was sucked out through the gap, and as his breath expired his broken body crashed to the surface of the planet, blood everywhere!

Poor poor tiny Tim.

 

[CMDR Bond]

Don't mind me lads, just doing some salt mining

 

[Stealthie]

My main gripe with C&P is that it mostly seems like it's primary purpose is to "catch people out" rather than to outright deter and punish criminal activity.

I don't think I've ever been deterred from doing anything by C&P and I've never had a punishment that I considered significant.
Instead, every brush with C&P just makes me think "Oh, FSS!!!" and is then followed much rolling of eyes and 10 minutes of faffing around.

 

[war4peace]

@Stealthie yes, pretty much.

 

[MickyG1982]

@Ian Skippy it is not about how many mistakes one makes. Beginners do make mistakes, you know, it's human nature.
Alt-tabbing out of the game is of no relevance, because even if I wouldn't have had done that, I was misled by:

1. The station accepting my docking request
2. The cryptic "Anonymous access" message which appeared AFTER docking access being granted.
3. Station starting to shoot me AFTER I was inside it.
4. No attempt to enforce payment of the bounty prior to ship destruction.



Good for you.



That's a ridiculous statement. All that hideous set of crimes is worth 200 credits? My oh my, life is really cheap in Elite Dangerous.

You are innocent until scanned guilty, it's always been like that, from day one. So until physically scanned by authorities you can still take the risk and sneak in, again this has not changed from day one. Once scanned as guilty "wanted" you will die. If caught in the wrong place, again something that has not changed since day one.

You've learned that lesson exactly the same as everyone here, take your licks, or raise a support ticket and FD might take pity on you, once.

 

[Iskariot]

Erm, what was I supposed to do? Guess? Read into the ol' Crystal Ball? Cast a spell?

I admit I did not, the first thing I did was press 1 and look up destination stations.

That's an overly simplistic (and puerile) excuse for a game mechanic that does not differentiate between a small mistake and a huge crime.

@Jmanis I used partial explo data selling to boost my status among various factions. I want(ed) to obtain permits for locked solar systems and using Unoversal Cartographics is a fast metod to achieve that goal.

I agree with you on some core points.

• Crime and Punishment mechanic is perhaps somewhat obscure for those not familiar with its workings. This could be better explained in the game. I think there should be a different welcoming message when you are given anonymous access.
• I have been asking for a change in how small bounties are treated for a long, long time. Why would there ever be a death penalty for a transgression worth a mere 200 credits? I never understood this. If a transgression is that unimportant, then why destroy a multimillion credit ship and its entire crew and perhaps passengers because of it? It makes no sense whatsoever.

This should have been addressed a long time ago.

I do think you are responsible for not noticing you were wanted in a system. Scans by cops can be easily avoided. These types of mechanics have been in the game forever.

 

[Ian Skippy]

@Ian Skippy it is not about how many mistakes one makes. Beginners do make mistakes, you know, it's human nature.
Alt-tabbing out of the game is of no relevance, because even if I wouldn't have had done that, I was misled by:

1. The station accepting my docking request
2. The cryptic "Anonymous access" message which appeared AFTER docking access being granted.
3. Station starting to shoot me AFTER I was inside it.
4. No attempt to enforce payment of the bounty prior to ship destruction.



Good for you.



That's a ridiculous statement. All that hideous set of crimes is worth 200 credits? My oh my, life is really cheap in Elite Dangerous.

Yes, beginners make mistakes. That is why beginners shouldn't fly around with 250m cr in vouchers. Or at least acknowledge they are beginners, and therefor likely to make mistakes and lose it all.

I am not 'blaming' you for making mistakes, but you knowingly raised the stakes very high while knowing you are a beginner. That is on you. If you played it safe you would only had to pay a small insurance fee with the hundreds of millions in your bank account. The game isn't that punishing, you punished yourself.

 

[babelfisch]

Yes, beginners make mistakes. That is why beginners shouldn't fly around with 250m cr in vouchers. Or at least acknowledge they are beginners, and therefor likely to make mistakes and lose it all.

I am not 'blaming' you for making mistakes, but you knowingly raised the stakes very high while knowing you are a beginner. That is on you. If you played it safe you would only had to pay a small insurance fee with the hundreds of millions in your bank account. The game isn't that punishing, you punished yourself.

Yup. Still, the C&P system is far from perfect, there is a lot of stuff that could be better. I made a thread with lots of suggetions some time ago. But criticism of the system shouldn't be based on completely unrelated mistakes. I could just as well say that piracy is unfair because I lost my exploration data after ship destruction although the pirates were never interested in it...

Could it be better explained? I don't think it needs to be clearer. When I shoot a Skyrim guard an arrow to the knee I don't get lots of warning and explanations first either, they'll just attack me. And when I run away and return to the settlement they'll still attack me.

I don't want to play a game like that:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOHyD49DaeA

 

[galahad2069]

I think the OP has a very good point regarding that fake welcome message.

I mean, if hearing the station say something like "hey CMDR, welcome mate, good to see ya again, 'sup?, ofc you can land, we have your favourite landing pad all dusted off for you", followed by all hell breaking loose is not a confusing bug and/or an idiotic game design (especially from a beginner's POV), I don't know what is.

But it's really just a minor problem compared the truckload of bugs and bad game mechanics the OP is going to experience sooner or later, like instancing problems, shadowrams, navlock bugs, clogging, SRV's sinking into the surface mesh, getting instakilled by touching a station with full shield 4 sys pips (by the collision itself, not the station guns) etc. etc.

I saw a recording the other day showing a pvp combat ship dropping to normal space near a station and exploding instantly thereafter for no apparent reason whatsoever.

 

[war4peace]

Could it be better explained? I don't think it needs to be clearer. When I shoot a Skyrim guard an arrow to the knee I don't get lots of warning and explanations first either, they'll just attack me. And when I run away and return to the settlement they'll still attack me.

I only played 99 hours of Skyrim and that was a long time ago, however I still had it installed on my PC, so I started it for a spin.

I went to Winterhold, killed the two random guards that were preambulating the streets. Then i entered the Jarl's longhouse. A guard there confronted me, gave me options:
1. Pay 2100 gold
2. Go to jail
3. Fight back.

I chose option 2, I got thrown to jail, escaped by picking the lock, quicktraveled back to Winterhold. The guard confronted me again, offering the same options. I chose #1. Paid the fine, went free.

So... your comparison helps reinforce my argument.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

I am a returning player... and I have encountered the most ridiculous game mechanic ever seen in any game so far.
A couple days ago, upon attempting a planetary scan mission, I accidentally clicked instead of right-clicking and I launched a single SRV shot on a building from the outpost I was sent to. The automated defenses started shooting me, so I tailed outta there and abandoned the mission. I saw a fine/bounty of 200 credits on my head so i figured I would go to some station and pay it.
Yesterday I loggerd in again, attempted to finish a pending data delivery mission that I had taken earlier so I headed to the destination station. Upon arriving, I requested automated docking, which was granted, and an info message showed up in red: „Anonymous access”. Wondering that that meant, I alt-tabbed (I have Elite Dangerous in borderless windowed mode) and googled for that. While that happened, in the space of 30 seconds, my ship entered the station, being in the process of docking and suddenly was shot from all sides, me alt-tabbing back just in time to get the death pop-up message.

I lost 23 Hutton Mugs that I had in my cargo hold (no, I am not going to go get them again. EVER.), the ship itself (easily replaced through insurance), 3 Modular Terminals (and we all know how difficult it is to gather 25 for Marco Qwent)... and 250M worth of exploration data from my previous trip to Eta Carinae, Statue of Liberty and their surroundings.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? /sarcasm

Seriously, it's like walking on the street, pulling out your phone and a piece of paper falls to the ground unnoticed. You keep walking and upon entering any public building you are beheaded and all your wealth destroyed.

I lost 5 or 6 days of exploration, hundreds of solar systems worth, and I am a bit upset. So what gives? Is this something that would remain in the game, unchanged? It makes no sense to inflict such a disproportionate punishment for such a small mistake, when there are countless methods to properly punish a mistake according to its gravity.

1. While doing planetary scan mission you often become Wanted, also by simply scanning the data point. You need to go to a system that has an Interstellar Factor (not the same system where you are wanted) and pay your fines. (1 mistake)

2. You tried to dock in the same system where you were wanted. That's enough to destroy your ship get scanned (2 mistakes)

3. You left your ship to the docking computer without checking the landing sequence (3 mistakes)

4. When I come back from exploration the first thing I do is selling my exploration data. I can't imagine why you decided to keep it and doing dangerous missions instead. (4 mistakes)

Seriously, it's like walking on the street, pulling out your phone and a piece of paper falls to the ground unnoticed. You keep walking and upon entering any public building you are beheaded and all your wealth destroyed.

5. No you were not walking on the street. The similarity would be that you were driving and checking google on your smartphone, enough to crash your car and kill someone including yourself (5 mistakes)

5 mistakes are definitely enough, remember the name of the game... Elite: Dangerous

 

[Ian Skippy]

I think the OP has a very good point regarding that fake welcome message.

I mean, if hearing the station say something like "hey CMDR, welcome mate, good to see ya again, 'sup?, ofc you can land, we have your favourite landing pad all dusted off for you", followed by all hell beaking loose is not a confusing bug and/or an idiotic game design (especially from a beginner's POV), I don't know what is.

They welcome you and have no information you are wanted. Later a cop scans you, they find out you are a wanted criminal and they attack you. There is nothing odd about that. Cops in my block greet me friendly as well, but if they ever find a pound of coke on me they will still bust me. "But you said hello earlier!" isn't much of a defense in that case.

Of course, you can miss that bit when you alt+tab out of the game...

 

[Morbad]

Upon arriving, I requested automated docking, which was granted

Hook, line, and sinker...

Seriously, it's like walking on the street, pulling out your phone and a piece of paper falls to the ground unnoticed. You keep walking and upon entering any public building you are beheaded and all your wealth destroyed.

It sounds more like publicly brandishing a weapon, discharging it into someone elses property, running off when you hear the sirens, then being surprised when they handcuff you when you go to pick up your abandoned vehicle from the impound yard.

 

[war4peace]

1. While doing planetary scan mission you often become Wanted, also by simply scanning the data point. The fine is low but you're Wanted and that's enough to destroy your ship if you get scanned in the system where you are wanted (not everywhere). You need to go to a system that has an Interstellar Factor (not the same system where you are wanted) and pay your fines. (1 mistake)

See, that's issue #1: a 200 credit bounty should never ever be reason for ship destruction.

2. When I come back from exploration the first thing I do is selling my exploration data. I can't imagine why you decided to keep it and doing dangerous missions instead. (2 mistakes)

I had explained why I was keeping some of it. I was down to half of what I had brought back from exploration.

3. No you were not walking on the street. The similarity would be that you were driving and checking google on your smartphone, enough to crash your car and kill someone including yourself (3 mistakes)

The analogy is ridiculous.

3 mistakes are definitely enough, remember the name of the game... Elite: Dangerous

Then change is to Elite: ridiculously Dangerous, or Elite: needlessly Dangerous. Because a couple weeks of exploration out there in the great void felt safer than docking at a station. Go figure...

It sounds more like publicly brandishing a weapon, discharging it into someone elses property, running off when you hear the sirens, then being surprised when they handcuff you when you go to pick up your abandoned vehicle from the impound yard.

Only they didn't handcuff me, which would have been fine. They outright headshot me without warning while I was coming to pay my due. Now do you see the difference?

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

See, that's issue #1: a 200 credit bounty should never ever be reason for ship destruction.

But you were Wanted and that's enough, it's not the fine/bounty value that define the level of reaction. The fine should be higher when you're wanted, on this I agree.

I had explained why I was keeping some of it. I was down to half of what I had brought back from exploration.

I still don't get it.. If you wanted to spread your exploration data to several factions to increase your reputation just do it before doing anything else. Flying up and down though the bubble with exploration data is dangerous, everyone knows that.

The analogy is ridiculous.

Chanage analogy if you wish, it's still a mistake. You can only leave your ship unmanned when you fly far from the bubble or when you are safely docked in a starport. Otherwise you first need to log off if you want to be sure. You ALT-TABBED while landing in a starport where you were Wanted. That's real mistake you made here.

Only they didn't handcuff me, which would have been fine. They outright headshot me without warning while I was coming to pay my due. Now do you see the difference?

The new C&P system is like this since one year. When you are Wanted in the current system or they kill you or they send you to jail when you pay the bounty. If you want to avoid this you need to go to an Interstella Factor in another system.

My list was not intended to offend you but to make you realize what you did wrong and how to avoid the issue next time.
I also once paid my bounty in the same system where I was wanted and I found myself in jail, I was very surprised and upset because I was in a very low jump range ship and it took me ages to come back where I was, but then I learned the lesson.
Now playing the game or rage quit it's only up to you.

 

[Morbad]

Then change is to Elite: ridiculously Dangerous, or Elite: needlessly Dangerous.

These experiences are pretty rare. You took a significant break then tried to dive right back into a complex experience without refamiliarizing yourself with the game first.

Because a couple weeks of exploration out there in the great void felt safer than docking at a station.

Long distance travel and exploration could certainly do with more hazards.

Only they didn't handcuff me, which would have been fine. They outright headshot me without warning while I was coming to pay my due. Now do you see the difference?

Your CMDR survived, didn't even have to spend a night in the lock up, and probably won't even be barred from operating motor vehicles or owning deadly weapons for the rest of his life.

Anyway, every incarnation of C&P has been premised around outlawry. Your CMDR gets caught breaking the law and is branded an outlaw (WANTED) until they make amends. Outlaws are shot down on sight by authority vessels and upon scan by most ports. You knew this, or should have, but you did not take this into account...quite possibly because you didn't adequatly refamiliarize yourself with the game or it's setting before jumping back into your CMDR's shoes.

 

[rajziel]

Hang on
You accidentelly shot ONE shot resulting in a 200 fine.

how did that become a bounty?

Also you said you went to a station and paid it off?
If so none of this would have happened and you may have had a bounty from elsewhere.

Also you had a few days in between, did you not look up the C&P system the first time you logged out? or before you logged back in?

Not being funny, and I know the information is quite obscure, but I returned well after the C&P changes and I had missed its announcement.
The first time I accidentally got a bounty (killing a ship before my scan showed it as wanted, but I knew it was as it was shooting an npc I had chosen to escort around a RES) I flew to a station to pay it off, saw that I couldnt and then read up on if there had been changes

So the bit that is confusing me is if you attempted to pay it off as you said, why didn't you realise that there had been changes, or if you had, why did you not take some time to look at what you needed to do?

I mean from what I see here what happened is

You incurred a bounty (again, not sure how you got a 200 bounty, its usually a fine when i fire shots at land installations and continuous shooting then incurs a bounty)

You intended to pay it off but may or may not have bothered attempting.

You logged off

You logged back on a few days later.

You took some missions, without bothering to check the status of your bounty

You flew back to the system where you did the crime, allowed autodocking to proceed even though something was clearly wrong, and then you alt tabbed while being scanned and was destroyed as a result.

I cant help but feel you were your own worst enemy in this case. You incurred a bounty and tried to play on as if nothing happened and got caught.

In game, I dont get to see what the crime was when i'm bounty hunting so why would anyone else?

Yeah the system isnt perfect but I'm twitchy the moment I have 1 mill of BH tickets in my hold let alone 250 million of exploration data. I'd have been all over how to clear my name the moment was in a safe place. I feel the mistakes were on your part in this case, in my opinion

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Your docking computer betrayed you. Lulled you into a false sense of security and gave the coppers plenty of time to do their work.